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Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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Not to minimize the unspeakable horror from both sides right now but something Dave Barry said many years ago...something to the effect of at the end of days when there is almost no life left on earth the Israeli and Palestinian two celled microbes will still be fighting. Just from a human perspective, I would consider my spiritual leanings towards Judaism, I believe Israel has a right to exist, but the civilian collateral damage to Palestine is just beyond any reason.
Obviously if any of us had the answer we'd be up there getting every world peace award for the ages. But really, your thoughts on the human side of the conflict, the political? The picture most recently that broke my heart was on the cover of the Times. I belive it was four Palestinian cousins. Children, the oldest maybe 13 and bored with staying inside. They went out on the beach and there was an airstrike. All four boys killed instantly for what?
So here's Israel with it's incredible fire power and superior everything and somehow they mistakenly interpret children playing as a potential threat. There aren't words
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Re: Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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I have been following the news and commentary on this war with considerable concern. I support Israel. While it has some major faults, Israel is a modern, rational, democratic secular state, whereas Gaza under Hamas is a medieval, irrational, despotic theocracy. The civilian casualties in Gaza have been due to Hamas using civilians as human shields for rocket launch sites as a propaganda tactic to provoke Israeli response.

My view on the potential for peace between Israel and Palestine links to my rather idiosyncratic view that we need a scientific reformation of Christianity. Sam Harris has an excellent comment at samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-crit ... ize-israel. I think most of his analysis is spot on, but disagree with his assertion that atheism "is actually a position you can hold in Judaism, but it’s a total non sequitur in Islam or Christianity." My view is that Christianity, as a doctrine focussed on love, truth, forgiveness and reconciliation, can reform to become a scientific rational bridge for dialogue between Judaism and Islam, as a way to develop a new religious consciousness, with respect for the ethical vision of atheism, that provides a path to peace in the Middle East. In effect, Jesus Christ (albeit that he was fictional) was a Palestinian, an oppressed indigenous leader, but he recognised the common humanity between the Jews and the Romans, the parties who stood in the analogous position of the Palestinians and the Jews today.

An article in the Financial Times is very informative.

See also Hillary Clinton's recent interview.



I find the anti-Semitic content of the protests against Israel deeply worrying, especially the failure of protestors to notice that things are far worse in Islamic countries such as Syria and Iraq. A letter I wrote on this topic to a newspaper is here.
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Re: Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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Robert Tulip wrote:I have been following the news and commentary on this war with considerable concern. I support Israel. While it has some major faults, Israel is a modern, rational, democratic secular state, whereas Gaza under Hamas is a medieval, irrational, despotic theocracy. The civilian casualties in Gaza have been due to Hamas using civilians as human shields for rocket launch sites as a propaganda tactic to provoke Israeli response.

My view on the potential for peace between Israel and Palestine links to my rather idiosyncratic view that we need a scientific reformation of Christianity. Sam Harris has an excellent comment at samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-crit ... ize-israel. I think most of his analysis is spot on, but disagree with his assertion that atheism "is actually a position you can hold in Judaism, but it’s a total non sequitur in Islam or Christianity." My view is that Christianity, as a doctrine focussed on love, truth, forgiveness and reconciliation, can reform to become a scientific rational bridge for dialogue between Judaism and Islam, as a way to develop a new religious consciousness, with respect for the ethical vision of atheism, that provides a path to peace in the Middle East. In effect, Jesus Christ (albeit that he was fictional) was a Palestinian, an oppressed indigenous leader, but he recognised the common humanity between the Jews and the Romans, the parties who stood in the analogous position of the Palestinians and the Jews today.

An article in the Financial Times is very informative.

See also Hillary Clinton's recent interview.



I find the anti-Semitic content of the protests against Israel deeply worrying, especially the failure of protestors to notice that things are far worse in Islamic countries such as Syria and Iraq. A letter I wrote on this topic to a newspaper is here.
The problem with Israel's presentation of its case is that it is invariably given without context. Today we have a situation of a radical regime in Gaza making some very violent moves, and making assertive claims. It's not a pretty sight, but there is also a reason things got to be how they are.

Just think for a minute if Australians (or anyone else) faced the same problem. Immigrants began arriving in what you considered to be home, whatever its political status at the time, in increasing numbers. You didn't vote for, or give assent to this process. Before long, it becomes clear that these immigrants aren't here to just be equal citizens, but to take over the place, and run it as a religiously based state- and not your religion. Due to the lack of political and military power you possess at the time, stopping this is very difficult. The UN steps in, and to your shock and dismay, divides the country, giving the majority to the immigrant population, despite them being a small minority by population. The immigrants prepare to declare independence, and begin a forceful eviction of the local inhabitants of certain villages and settlements ahead of this event. Some local neighbors intervene, but are ultimately unsuccessful.

Despite the success of the immigrants, their position is never fully accepted by the world, and not at all in the region. Twenty years later, they expand again, taking more land. This becomes an ongoing process, squeezing those left into an ever smaller space. Those that are left in occupied areas become virtual prisoners, their movements and actions under the control of the new rulers of the land. Three generations later, and many conflicts suffered, feelings harden, with many youth feeling they have nothing to loose, and resorting to violence.

There are aspects of this that are uncomfortable for Israel to acknowledge, and so the preferred spin is to narrow down to a minimal time frame. Hamas fired rockets, we had to stop them. Simple.

If Australians, or anyone else for that matter, had lived in prison like reserves, on what was once their land, for three generations, do you think it likely some of the more radical among them would strike out aggressively in some manner?

Any sort of counter guerrilla warfare in built up areas is notoriously difficult. It is just about impossible to do without causing a high rate of casualties. Maybe Hamas is using some "human shields", but even if they are not, there is no way for Israel to be so precise as to avoid mass civilian casualties if they hope to be at all successful, certainly not when using air strikes and artillery. The fact that they have killed over 1,000 people so far, including many, if not most of them, civilians, indicates that they are not holding back, and consider this level of death OK. This is, in effect, group punishment. Precision is impossible, and so revenge inflicted on the whole population is seen as an acceptable alternative.

I think there is also the issue of two wrongs not making a right in your post. Yes, some Arab states lean towards a backwards, medieval view of the world. This is reprehensible. But it is not a justification for the seizure of a country, and the expulsion of a large segment of its inhabitants. If it was, were would it stop? Russia is run by a bunch of thugs, so is their country up for grabs? China is trashing its environment, and trampling all over human rights. Can we have China?
"I suspect that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose"
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Re: Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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The catastrophe of 1948 was 66 years ago. Just three years before that, the allied powers stopped the Germans from completing their plan to eradicate the Jews from Europe.

As Sam Harris points out in the article I linked above, the universal hatred toward Jews justified the need for a Jewish homeland. His article is well worth reading as a perspective on the merits of the conflicting sides, and the question of to what extent hostility towards Israel contains an anti-Semitic dimension.

Looking back to a longer historical view, Israel was the Jewish homeland for a thousand years until the Romans expelled them in 70 AD. So their emotional and historical attachment to the land of Palestine made Israel the logical place for a Jewish homeland.

Yes, the process of creating Israel by expelling Palestinians was handled badly. But the geopolitical reality of the Holocaust meant that the international community of the leading imperial powers considered the great suffering experienced by the Jews meant they deserved sympathy through provision of a homeland.

There are conflicting views on the causes of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Perhaps if the Arabs had welcomed the Jews they could have lived together in peace, coexisting as friendly neighbours. But the Arabs did not welcome the Jews, they formed a military coalition to invade and expel them. This poisoning of the relationship toughened the Jewish attitude towards national security.

Hamas, eyeless in Gaza, continues to call for the destruction of Israel. Until Palestinian attitudes become more forgiving, they have little hope of gaining freedom. Guerilla warfare, terrorism and hatred are not effective strategies for progress, since they destroy trust, teach harmful skills and attitudes in the place of helpful skills and attitudes, and fail to secure opportunities for a focus on economic growth to displace military conflict.

What you describe Etudiant about Australia actually happened. Aboriginal people lived here peacefully for more than 40,000 years until the British confronted their wooden weapons with steel, germs and writing. That clash of superior and inferior technology was far more extreme than the clash between Israel and Palestine. But it is part of the sweep of colonisation of the world, with more advanced societies conquering the less advanced. If the British had not invaded Australia, the Japanese or Chinese or some other superior culture would have done so.

This dialectic of the modern and the primitive is an emotionally confronting topic with its implication of the condemnation of the inferior. That implication can be overcome if the conquered people choose to learn from and assimilate to the conqueror.

Australian Aborigines have a choice whether to fester in hatred and resentment, seeking compensation for past wrongs, living with the despair of unemployment, or to accept their situation and make the best of it. The best way for Aborigines to sustain their deep cultural heritage is to learn how to succeed in the modern world. Rejecting the world is a recipe for a spiral into alcohol fueled violence, desolation and destruction.

The Christian model, as I alluded, is presented in the Gospels by John the Baptist as a gospel of forgiveness in exchange for repentance. Repentance means an honest understanding by the perpetrator of the wrongs of the past, a mutual acknowledgement of a shared history with the victim as a basis for reconciliation.

The Jewish Old Testament ethic of eye for an eye, and the Islamic vision of universal submission to Allah, can be bridged by the Christian framework of love as a basis for mutual acceptance and tolerance. The story of the cross and resurrection is a universal archetype of human politics, of the ability of a suppressed true vision to overcome political suppression through an assertion of moral legitimacy. Turn the other cheek may seem like foolish advice, but in the longer term the Christian ethic provides a spiritual power of liberation with an irresistable mandate.
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Re: Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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Robert Tulip wrote:The catastrophe of 1948 was 66 years ago. Just three years before that, the allied powers stopped the Germans from completing their plan to eradicate the Jews from Europe.

As Sam Harris points out in the article I linked above, the universal hatred toward Jews justified the need for a Jewish homeland. His article is well worth reading as a perspective on the merits of the conflicting sides, and the question of to what extent hostility towards Israel contains an anti-Semitic dimension.

Looking back to a longer historical view, Israel was the Jewish homeland for a thousand years until the Romans expelled them in 70 AD. So their emotional and historical attachment to the land of Palestine made Israel the logical place for a Jewish homeland.
The Holocaust was a terrible thing, but again, two wrongs don't make a right. It wasn't the Arabs who committed genocide, but the Germans. A fairer settlement might have given a portion of Germany to Jews. This is not so far fetched. Germany was being sliced and diced in 1945 anyway, and no one could claim this wasn't justice.

I also don't buy the idea of emotional attachment. Attachment to a land one has never seen, and never lived in is simply a fantasy. Two or three generations down the road, such attachment becomes mere folklore, harmless in itself, but in no way a legal basis for occupation and expulsion. Almost everyone on the planet has origins somewhere other than were they are now, if we go back far enough. A pragmatic solution will focus on more recent history.
Robert Tulip wrote: Yes, the process of creating Israel by expelling Palestinians was handled badly. But the geopolitical reality of the Holocaust meant that the international community of the leading imperial powers considered the great suffering experienced by the Jews meant they deserved sympathy through provision of a homeland.

There are conflicting views on the causes of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Perhaps if the Arabs had welcomed the Jews they could have lived together in peace, coexisting as friendly neighbours. But the Arabs did not welcome the Jews, they formed a military coalition to invade and expel them. This poisoning of the relationship toughened the Jewish attitude towards national security.
How do Australians welcome boatloads of Afghani and Pakistani refugees? If the numbers are reasonable, and it is thought they will take up the existing culture, and they go through proper channels, then OK. If not, forceful action is taken. This is no different to the Arab response to Jewish settlement in Palestine. Small numbers were seen as fine, as long as they didn't want to take over the place. The only difference is that Australia has remained in control of the situation, and Palestine has been swamped and taken over. If uncontrolled immigration ever reaches 20 or 30% of the Australian population, I'm willing to bet you my pension that there will be some ugly violence- as there would be anywhere else.

The military coalition was only formed after Jews began the systematic clearing of Arab villages ahead of the independence declaration, after considerable violence and killing had taken place.
Robert Tulip wrote: Hamas, eyeless in Gaza, continues to call for the destruction of Israel. Until Palestinian attitudes become more forgiving, they have little hope of gaining freedom. Guerilla warfare, terrorism and hatred are not effective strategies for progress, since they destroy trust, teach harmful skills and attitudes in the place of helpful skills and attitudes, and fail to secure opportunities for a focus on economic growth to displace military conflict.
Yes, some in Gaza have become quite radical. This is not so surprising considering they live in an ongoing, massive prison with little hope of freedom or progress. Again, we have to look at context. Many in Palestine are quite moderate, and only want a reasonable settlement. The Palestinian Authority has agreed to the Saudi peace proposal of 2002, one that is mainstream to general world opinion, and is indeed quite generous towards Israel, offering recognition, trade, and the retention of the bulk of Palestine. This is hardly a radical document. It has been rejected outright by Israel, as they have no interest in any sort of compromise settlement while they are in a strong position. Violence is never really justified, but in this case it is Israeli "attitude" that needs to be adjusted in order to obtain peace.
Robert Tulip wrote: What you describe Etudiant about Australia actually happened. Aboriginal people lived here peacefully for more than 40,000 years until the British confronted their wooden weapons with steel, germs and writing. That clash of superior and inferior technology was far more extreme than the clash between Israel and Palestine. But it is part of the sweep of colonisation of the world, with more advanced societies conquering the less advanced. If the British had not invaded Australia, the Japanese or Chinese or some other superior culture would have done so.

This dialectic of the modern and the primitive is an emotionally confronting topic with its implication of the condemnation of the inferior. That implication can be overcome if the conquered people choose to learn from and assimilate to the conqueror.

Australian Aborigines have a choice whether to fester in hatred and resentment, seeking compensation for past wrongs, living with the despair of unemployment, or to accept their situation and make the best of it. The best way for Aborigines to sustain their deep cultural heritage is to learn how to succeed in the modern world. Rejecting the world is a recipe for a spiral into alcohol fueled violence, desolation and destruction.
There is a colonial parallel here, but with two major differences. First of all, the Jews were too late. By the late '40s, colonialism was on the way out, as Europe's colonies were in a state of discontent, if not outright revolt. The idea of the white man's burden was no longer in fashion, and no longer accepted by subject peoples, or indeed many in the developed world. It simply did not wash anymore to march in and take over from the locals.

Second, there is considerable difference in degree. Australia's aboriginals are arguably some of the most primitive people anywhere. I was in northern Australia earlier this year, and in my observation was that the gulf between the two cultures is still stark. Today, Palestinians are doctors, lawyers, engineers, and other professionals. The primitive peoples argument was unsupportable in the '40s, and non-existent today.
Robert Tulip wrote: The Christian model, as I alluded, is presented in the Gospels by John the Baptist as a gospel of forgiveness in exchange for repentance. Repentance means an honest understanding by the perpetrator of the wrongs of the past, a mutual acknowledgement of a shared history with the victim as a basis for reconciliation.

The Jewish Old Testament ethic of eye for an eye, and the Islamic vision of universal submission to Allah, can be bridged by the Christian framework of love as a basis for mutual acceptance and tolerance. The story of the cross and resurrection is a universal archetype of human politics, of the ability of a suppressed true vision to overcome political suppression through an assertion of moral legitimacy. Turn the other cheek may seem like foolish advice, but in the longer term the Christian ethic provides a spiritual power of liberation with an irresistable mandate.
You may have something there, but in any sort of reconciliation, acknowledgement of the truth is essential. A wrong has been done, and even many Israeli's now accept this. It is up to the political leadership of Israel to be truthful about the past, drop the rationalizing rhetoric, and compromise on a settlement plan. The prison guards have a more freedom to maneuver than the prisoners in this regard.
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Re: Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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"I suspect that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose"
— JBS Haldane
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Re: Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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Since my new biotech thriller novel, “The True Virus”, takes place during the last major Gaza/Israeli war, I had to do a lot of research. At the beginning, I sided with Israel. I even had a Hamas bioterrorist hack into the main CIA computer. But I soon discovered that Israel wasn’t that innocent in the way they invaded Gaza. Therefore, I decided to create subplots involving a family living in Gaza while at the same time I created characters in the Israeli Defense Force. I tried to stay neutral as the author and developed points of view from both sides.
Take a look at excerpts from my novel below to see how I handled this delicate situation that exists between these two want-to-be nations. I think that peace can only come about when each side recognizes the others right to be a free and separate state. Of course that would mean they would no longer fire weapons at each other.
http://www.amazon.com/True-Virus-Thrill ... true+virus

The following excerpt from my book has my main character interviewing the Palestinian President – Mahmond Abbas. Abbas’s responses are taken from some comments he has made in the past.

[John followed up with yet another question involving Gaza. “Do you see any end to this recent Gaza conflict?”
“Yes, we will see the last day of this military display in the Gaza Strip and move on to rebuilding areas which were destroyed by Israel. We will continue to follow up on these issues and our main goal is to prevent a situation where the Gaza Strip would be turned into a big prison. The Gaza Strip should be open to the world and the West Bank.”
John changed the line of questioning away from Gaza. “Do you see any chance of a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine?”
Abbas looked directly at the camera as he answered, “Until Israel withdraws completely and the Palestinian state is established, there can be no peace. Peace and security cannot be guaranteed by the construction of walls, by the erections of checkpoints and the confiscation of land, but rather the recognitions of rights.”
Knowing that they needed to get on with the main purpose of their mission here in the West Bank, John decided to ask his final question. “What is your hope for the future of Palestine?”
Ralph adjusted the camera lens for a close-up as Abbas answered. “There is a difficult mission ahead – to build our state, to achieve security for our people, to provide a good life for our people, to give our prisoners freedom, our fugitives a life of dignity and to reach our goal of an independent state. We affirm that we want to live in peace, security and stability next to the state of Israel.”]

Here’s another excerpt depicting a conversation between two members of the Israeli Defense Forces just before they invade Gaza.
[Sergeant Epstein knew that Lieutenant Shulman was aware that he was a veteran of Operation Rainbow which was an Israeli military campaign against Gaza in May of 2004. The main objective of this new assault was to clear terrorist infrastructure and find smuggling tunnels in and around Rafah. So since they would be entering the same territory as the 2004 battle, he knew his expertise would be important in this clash. Therefore, with confidence he said. “Believe me sir; there will be lots of these Al-Qassam fighters left. These damn Palestinians know how to hide. I’ve been up against these bastards before. Most of them are hiding in homes behind women and children. Our jets have been told not to fire at civilian targets, that’s why most of the Hamas militants are still over there. We can’t worry about civilians. As far as I’m concerned everyone over there is our enemy.”
“Sergeant, Captain Auerbach gave us orders not to fire on any civilians unless they fire at us.”
“Sir, I’ve seen buddies of mine killed by some innocent looking Palestinian woman running up to them looking like she was going to give them a big hug, but instead blew herself up and them too.”
“I understand sergeant, but we must try and not kill civilians. Our orders are to be the infantry support for Captain Auerbach’s tanks. We are only to engage with Al-Qassam fighters who fire at us.”
“Sir, they all look alike. All I’m trying to say is to watch out. When you see one of them running at you, point your gun at them and yell halt. If they don’t stop, then kill them.”
“Okay sergeant, I’ll agree to that. You’ve been through this before, so I’ll trust your judgment.”]
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Re: Israel and Palestine, Will There Ever Be Peace?

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Not to make light of the situation, but...

I would like to officially offer my plan for peace in the Middle East. It's quite simple really. I propose a country swap between the People's of Israel and Greenland. Everyone from Israel moves to Greenland, and everyone from Greenland moves to Israel. This way, the Israelis no longer have to worry about Hamas, Hamas never again has to deal with Israel and the ever-mellow folks of the frozen tundra get to bask in the sun and work on their tans for a change.

A win-win for all involved, I say.

You can send me the Nobel Peace Prize now.
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