Flann 5 wrote:Hi Ant. Maybe, but I imagine there would be an infernal infinity of gibberish there too.That might provide a clue that it was not specified information.I wouldn't want to be the proof reader!
I was being flippant, of course.
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Flann 5 wrote:Hi Ant. Maybe, but I imagine there would be an infernal infinity of gibberish there too.That might provide a clue that it was not specified information.I wouldn't want to be the proof reader!
Sorry for being short. I don't take handmeouts though. If humor wasn't in my genetic code, I'll just have to do without.Someone buy Interbane a sense of humor.
The message is way more than the medium. DNA is unique in that it has arisen through physical processes, starting with information so simple that it could barely be called information. Start with a one. Add a zero to get 10. Add another one to get 101. Over time, the information accumulates. The random string of bits is slowly filtered out, what dies is lost and what lives continues. Rinse and repeat for billions of years and you get sentient creatures capable of the same sort of informational evolution, but intentional rather than through the processes of physics.My point about Richard Dawkin's book was not about originality.Simply that he expresses thoughts in a coded form (written language) and these are visible on physical materials,a book. In writing the above sentence I'm using information in a coded form and a specified way to convey an idea.It's not random typing of alphabetic letters.Monkeys are good at typing gibberish.It's the specified structure of the sentence and the meaning of it that should convey that it was not randomly typed by a monkey but it's an intelligible communication of someone's thought. A reasonable deduction. That's Lennox's point. D.n.a is coded specified information. What the monkey types is random.What Dawkin's book contains is a hell of a lot of coded information. The message is way more than the medium.
Which is why it makes abiogenesis so difficult to understand and believe, as if it's wishful thinking rather than actual science. You're looking at it from the big picture backwards, where the only way to understand it is from the small bits moving forward.It's an unvarying observable fact that life comes from life.
And yet, that answer is merely a placeholder for ignorance Flann. What would you answer if I asked how such an intelligent could exist outside of a physical framework, when it's an unvarying observable fact that intelligences only exist within a physical framework? Or if I asked what came before the intelligence, or gave rise to it? Or how could it be so old to have created Earth, if it's an unwavering observable fact that intelligences do not live that long? Or if it was infinite, what was the intelligence processing for infinite years in boredom? Could you imagine an infinite number of years thinking your own thoughts. How silly! Or why would it bother to create life, if a process such as abiogenesis could do the trick, when all it had to do was set the laws of physics in motion and step back? If this intelligence is hiding behind the scenes watching, why doesn't he make himself known? Is he a master player of games, hiding himself just enough so that people such as myself see no evidence of him, thus are damned to an eternity in hell, or to come up with other answers? If this entity is nonphysical, how does it "see" or "hear"? Is it magic/god's will/? How does it interact with the physical world to make changes? How does it see into the heads of people who pray? Is there a body, or only a nonlocalized area where the intelligence resides?Alternatively, that an intelligent purposeful creator made all things.
Evolutionary theory does not explain abiogenesis or the rise of consciousness. Those are separate issues, I think. What Charles Darwin envisioned wasn't the way evolution actually works, either. We're just dwarfs standing on his shoulders, even as he himself was a dwarf.Evolutionary theory explains all things.I should be more grateful to Charles Darwin the great demystifier. Where would we be without him?
But does it? Life is made entirely of non-life. What are you made of? Mostly water and carbon. The carbon in your body is made of exactly the same material as the carbon in a pencil. And the electrons which hold your body together are the same as those that hold together a gortex boot. What sustains us? We have to eat other animals. But other animals have eaten plants. And plants get their sustenance from the rays of the sun. Non-life.Flann:
It's an unvarying observable fact that life comes from life.
This isn’t quite right.That life arose essentially accidentally culminating in living thinking purposeful beings.All you need is aeons of time apparently.Blind purposeless forces made rational thinking purposeful beings, accidentally.
Design is not an illusion, exactly. It just wasn’t intended by any intelligence. Strong beaks are strong because they evolved along side nuts that got harder and harder to crack, in order to protect against strong beaks which were getting stronger and better at cracking nuts! As nuts get stronger, weak beaks die off, or pursue other prey. As beaks get stronger, weak nuts are consumed into extinction. So there is a push towards strong beaks and strong nuts in general. They are guiding the evolution of each other. Things are the way they are for the purpose of how they are used, but nobody decided that there ought to be birds with strong beaks and plants with tough shells.We are told that the appearance of design is an illusion.
Correct. As long as you add in that a selective pressure needs to be present. That’s the part that moulds randomness into coherence.The complex biological systems of the body,brain etc were unintended and not designed by anyone.Accident and increment explains all.
Yes.The complex systems themselves are real,not illusion.
There was no thought… but there was a use. Purpose comes with baggage associated with a guiding intelligence. The course of evolution does not plan ahead. That’s why so many animals are extinct. If whales had always been intended to live in the water, why on earth would they breath air? Because there was no forward thought process. No “destination” in mind from the outset.That they may have been intended and designed though is false apparently.There was no thought or purpose behind them.
Deluded? Some maybe. I tend to think believers haven’t really explored the information that well. They’ve already been told what the answer is by their family: God did it. So they think they know that going into the discussion. So, any new information runs into this barrier in the mind. Always looking for something to grab hold of which will scream to them, “this is not true”. They expect to find these issues with scientific theories and when they run across something they haven’t quite understood, they think the inconsistency they see in the idea is a fault of the idea, when usually it’s their own misunderstanding of the material.Those who believe in an omnipotent creator are deluded.
We would very likely have discovered the truth of natural selection without Charles Darwin, but who knows when that would have happened? A year after he published? Thirty years? But the good thing about the truth is that it is out there for the finding, and it doesn’t require any particular investigator. It only requires investigation, and the honesty to follow the clues where they lead you.Evolutionary theory explains all things.I should be more grateful to Charles Darwin the great demystifier. Where would we be without him?
yeah right, fuck off Jesus and take that whinging bitch Satan with youJesus wrote:I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.