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Ch. 1 - The Divided Self

#129: Mar. - May 2014 (Non-Fiction)
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Dexter

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Re: Ch. 1 - The Divided Self

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DWill wrote:
Interbane wrote: Not just understanding it, but getting to the point where it 'clicks'.
Good to know that I'm really two steps away. My obstinate question at this point would be, do you think free will being an illusion is more than a technicality? Is there some major, or even minor, adjustment we should be making in how we view personal responsibility and achievement?
Sam Harris talks about this (you should read his mini-ebook on Free Will), about how it should change our views on moral responsibility. Which is not to say we shouldn't punish people.

I'm not suggesting he's the only one to read on this (you can read his exchange with Daniel Dennett for one thing), but here's an article talking about it:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/life ... -free-will

It does seem kind of odd to be talking about persuading people about ideas or about what we should hold people responsible for, or what kind of legal system to have, while at the same time acknowledging the illusion of free will. It's hard to wrap your brain around that, if that expression even makes sense now!
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Interbane

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Re: Ch. 1 - The Divided Self

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It does seem kind of odd to be talking about persuading people about ideas or about what we should hold people responsible for, or what kind of legal system to have, while at the same time acknowledging the illusion of free will.
Behavioral modification works in a deterministic universe. Punishment and holding someone accountable is to modify future behavior, as well as the behavior of others. In a sense, punishment makes more sense in a deterministic universe. A variety of free will is that if the universe is deterministic, we should become progressively better at predicting what will happen. We use determinism to our advantage, identifying how to mold the future. Enforcing moral behavior is essential to a better future. Determinism doesn't change that, instead it solidifies it.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Ch. 1 - The Divided Self

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Interbane wrote:
It does seem kind of odd to be talking about persuading people about ideas or about what we should hold people responsible for, or what kind of legal system to have, while at the same time acknowledging the illusion of free will.
A variety of free will is that if the universe is deterministic, we should become progressively better at predicting what will happen. We use determinism to our advantage, identifying how to mold the future.
Meet Hari Seldon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari_Seldon
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DWill

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Re: Ch. 1 - The Divided Self

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Interbane wrote: Behavioral modification works in a deterministic universe. Punishment and holding someone accountable is to modify future behavior, as well as the behavior of others. In a sense, punishment makes more sense in a deterministic universe. A variety of free will is that if the universe is deterministic, we should become progressively better at predicting what will happen. We use determinism to our advantage, identifying how to mold the future. Enforcing moral behavior is essential to a better future. Determinism doesn't change that, instead it solidifies it.
Except that punishment might not be the best way to modify behavior, which prison sentences often illustrate. And even when the conditions of immediacy and consistency are met, punishment often doesn't change behavior lastingly. It also creates a lot of resentment, obviously.

Will we get any better at predicting what will happen? Maybe if we succeed at creating laboratory conditions in our world. For that to happen, there would need to be a sea change in our aspirations for the kind of life we want.
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Except that punishment might not be the best way to modify behavior, which prison sentences often illustrate.
This is true. There should still be punishment, but it should capitalize on our moral emotions, which work to modify behavior. I think the humiliation that accompanies a sentence is more effective than the confinement.
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Dexter wrote:He describes some amazing research on split brain experiments, I've heard some of it before.
I just got to Robert Wright's video where he talks about split brain experiments. It's called "Modern Psychology and the Self" in Lecture Three.

Interesting what he says about the right brain being more interested in literal truth, and the left brain being more interested with the bigger picture. This is close to the end of the lecture.

For some reason, this reminds me of this famous selective memory test. Have you guys seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
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Re: Ch. 1 - The Divided Self

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I saw the gorilla, but I also had already heard about this experiment, and so I was waiting for the gorilla and also distracted from the task, badly missing the correct answer. If I'd been concentrating, maybe I would've not seen the gorilla even while knowing the catch. This experiment seems to relate in some way to the reliability of witnesses to events. It's remarkable what people report seeing or not seeing, depending partly on their state of attention at the time.
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Re: Ch. 1 - The Divided Self

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I had a different experience with this. After viewing the second clip with the gorilla I had this vague sense that I had seen something other than the people and the ball, but I would not have been able to say what exactly the thing was.
After that experience my first thought also was how this could play out with a witness to a criminal investigation where the witness knows he/she saw something and may be influenced by a bias or a comment from an investigating officer.
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