Robert Tulip wrote:Testing the claim of the alignment is precisely what I did in making the diagrams above showing the precise positions of the solstice in 1998 and 2011. I added the line of the Galactic Plane and the position of the Galactic Center to the diagrams to show that the line of the ecliptic - the unchanging zodiac path of the sun - passes several degrees of arc away from the precise position of the Galactic Center.

That's what I think someone needs to be doing on the History Channel, for instance.

So the first claim - of an exact line up - a syzygy - between the earth, the sun and the Galactic Center never actually happens. Myth Busted.

The second claim, that the solstice point will cross the Galactic Plane close to the Galactic Center in 2012, withdraws slightly from the popular myth of the 2012 galactic core syzygy by only talking about the plane of the galaxy, not its exact center. But that event, the precession of the solstice across the galactic plane, already happened in 1998, as my two diagrams with the arrows pointing to the solstice position show. The solstice point will not cross the galactic plane in 2012. Myth Busted.

The whole thing would be over that quick. The whole reason for asserting a "doomsday" is addressed to the galactic center in perfect alignment with the sun and earth. This is every bit as bad as Campings theological assertions about the flood as metaphor for this last May and October. False foundations...

The continued popularity of these myths shows that public opinion is impervious to facts, which are rarely allowed to get in the way of a story that people want to believe. The enduring power of religious untruths (the historical Jesus comes to mind) is testament to the psychological desire for belief, and how an attractive myth can overwhelm mere evidence.

I'm taken back by how Neil played right into the premise of this urban myth, as if astronomy can confirm such a thing as a perfect aligment between the earth, sun, and galactic center, and does confirm such a thing every winter solstice. That's like when scholars like Bart Erman assure people that Jesus is in fact based on an historical man, but that the historical man behind the myth isn't who we think he was, nor what has been claimed of him. They jump right past establishing the initial claim of the myth - first and foremost - as if it's already well established, when it really isn't. In both cases they feed into the basics of the myth while simply trying to downplay the extent of it's implications.

Robert Tulip wrote:We have evolved within the stable pattern of precession. It is a legitimate scientific research program to analyze the influence of precession on life. The Mayan Long Count is a good starting point.

I agree with the above. The Mayan Long count more than likely has to do with trying to judge the sun crossing the galactic plane. And they were only 14 years off the mark if so. I doubt that they even recognized the dark rift below Ophiuchus as the center of the galaxy. The whole center of the galaxy, sun, and earth alignment idea seems oriented to periods where we knew that we are in the Milky Way, what it looks like from afar, and that there even is a center of the galaxy. And then fed these ideas into the Mayan cosmology where they simply understood the Galactic plane and not necessarily that it has a particular center point.

BTW Robert, welcome to the FTN moderation team. Your status has been updated...

Neil deGrasse Tyson presents a rather typical scientific condescension. As Tat notes, he speaks of a 'perfect' alignment, when in fact the alignment is never perfect with the galactic center, as my diagram above shows. But that is a minor criticism, as Neil is speaking in broad terms to indicate that there is no scientific basis for 2012 fear-mongering. Even so, he does give credence to a false myth of a perfect annual syzygy.

The bigger problem I had with this astronomical explanation was that there actually is a symbolism relating to this 2012 claim, but pointing out the factual errors about alignment, Nibiru, earthquakes and the Hollywood alien treatment in the movie 2012 basically dismisses the symbolism out of hand as not even worth discussing. If scientists think that refuting facts will make the myth go away they are not seeing the big story.

All these popular myths are down in the weeds, whereas there is a big story regarding the relation between the earth and the Milky Way in which the passage of the solstice across the galactic plane does mark a turning point in time. Whether this turning point is merely symbolic or actually has some dynamic reality is something I doubt we can say definitely. Pity it actually happened in 1998, but as John Major Jenkins points out, the solstice moves extremely slowly, just one degree per lifetime, so 2012 looks like a pretty good approximation from the primitive stone age Mayans.

Did you guys notice this book is on the current non-fiction poll?

Yes, I will vote for it. As I mention in my review above, it has a number of errors, but discussing these is a good way to explain the science.

This will be our new Camping watch for next year. How lucky are we? We get three doomsday dates to watch come and go within a less than two period. This one will be far more popular than anything Camping was up to. And we have the evidence that puts the entire thing to rest from the foundation upward right here in this thread.

A)Positive assertion: Perfect alignments > Gravitational effects of the perfect alignments causing certain destruction...





B)Reality: No perfect alignments > No gravitational effects of the perfect alignments and therefore not causing certain destruction...

Today is Ragrarok!

Happy end times everybody!


http://www.jorvik-viking-festival.co.uk ... uary-2014/

Why didn't the Vikings get the same hoopla that the Mayans did?

Because their descendants are still around in large number to say, "Yeah, that's all bullshit."?

reminds me of an old lyric i heard

"a personal apocalypse, in a land where such is not allowed."

looking toward the idea that "the end of the world" is not really about the literal destruction of physical planet earth but that it is more a metaphor for the way that our "personal worlds" at times suffer a spectacular end.

the literalist "end of the world" dates keep failing because in error they are based on an outward mindset, a misinterpretation, but all the while personal worlds are constantly ending and beginning.

the "world" of today ends in order that the "world" of tomorrow may emerge so to speak.

i find a literal ragnarok a little ridiculous and yet when i read

Norse folklore suggests that all the sequence of events comprising the Ragnarok was predicted by the Norse god Odin himself. Odin prophesied the events after he acquired wisdom to foresee the future by hanging himself from a tree.

and compare it to bible verses like

Acts 10:39

39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,

then read things like

"Odin had hung himself for nine days so that he died and would be re-born with wisdom and foresight," the Jorvik Viking Festival organisers said.

"The wisdom acquired by Odin allowed him to see the events of Ragnarok enabling him to plan for the end of the world."

Unlike other mythological doomsday prophecies, the Vikings predict that Ragnarok will be followed by the birth of a new world with two human survivors who will then populate the world.

Well, even if the world wakes up to another morning on 23 February, the Jorvik Viking Festival will still mark the coming of spring, which is anyway a rebirth of the world every year.

well it all seems very relatable to my experience.

i hope that serpent hasn't bitten off more than he can chew