You are browsing the forum as a guest. Please log in or register to access additional features.
Online reading group and book discussion forum
  FORUMS ABOUT BOOKS VIDEOS ADVERTISE LINKS BLOGS DONATE CHAT CONTACT  

     Log in   Register 


BookTalk.org News
• Thank you for supporting BookTalk.org with your generous donation, Grim!
• Regular casual chats are back on the menu! Check out the calendar for the schedule.

Links to Explore

Community Rules & Tips
Info for Authors & Publishers
Our old Ezboard/Yuku forum
Suggested Books
Live Author Chat Transcripts
FACTS Book Selections
Rationally Speaking - Articles

Support BookTalk.org

Donate securely with PayPal
BookTalk.org Store (NEW)

Just for Fun

Games - 170 & growing!
Member Photo Album

BookTalk.org Statistics

Forum & Member Statistics
Site Traffic Statistics
Our Amazon.com Sales Stats





BookTalk.org Store

All store merchandise is sold with no markup. BookTalk.org doesn't earn a profit. These items are sold for fun and to promote our community.

Visit the BookTalk.org store!

Visit the BookTalk.org store!
Visit the BookTalk.org store!

Chat Room

Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat Room

Dec. 2008 Chat Schedule
Jan. 2009 Chat Schedule


Author Interviews


Featured Member Blogs

Robert Tulip's Blog
Frank 013's Blog
Lawrence's Blog
Frank 013's Blog

- View all member Blogs
- See the latest Blog posts



We need your support!

Please support BookTalk.org by donating today.

See who supports us


Show us where you live!
BookTalk.org Member Map

Display Pagerank


Mar. 2003 - America, Europe, and the rest of the world

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Politics, Current Events & History
Author Message
Chris OConnor Chris OConnor has been starred
Rhodes Scholar
BookTalk.org Owner

Avatar

Usergroups: None


Joined: 05 May 2002


Posts: 7374

Thanks
Given: 64
Received: 21 in 17 Posts

Gender: Male
Location: Florida
us.gif



PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:58 pm    Post subject: Mar. 2003 - America, Europe, and the rest of the world Reply with quote
This thread is for the discussion of Massimo's March 2003 article entitled America, Europe, and the rest of the world.

Quote:
N. 34, March 2003

America, Europe, and the rest of the world


How deep is the current divide between Europe and the United States in terms of how to conduct international affairs? Alarming notes have been sounded on both sides of the Pond to the effect that the rift risks breaking up NATO and rendering the United Nations “irrelevant” (to use the rhetoric of the Bush administration. Usually, the French are being singled out for leading the rebellion against the US hegemony, even though an overwhelming majority of European citizens have been voicing their opposition to the current US policy on Iraq, even in “pro-American” countries such as Britain and Italy.

As it is often the case in complex matters, one cannot form a reasonable opinion just by listening to alternative ways of spinning the same stories in the media (assuming that one bothers to check directly what the French or British press say, since American media are becoming more and more homogeneous thanks to their ownership by an increasingly smaller number of multinationals). It was therefore refreshing to see actual data from a large survey of American and European attitudes conducted by the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations (CCFR). The picture emerging from the study is more complex and nuanced than what we tend to hear trumpeted by talking heads and media pundits.

It comes down to the following: Europeans are inclined to agree with Americans on more issues than either of them agrees with the rest of the world (this is good news for people who are worried about the collapse of the West). However, there are major areas of disagreement that might make for a very interesting upcoming decade in geopolitics (and this is the good news for those who are interested in a more open discussion of international issues). Let’s take a look at some of the details.

First off, Americans and Europeans really like each other, and this goes even for the French. On a scale of 0 to 100, Americans rate European countries between 61 (Germany) and 76 (Great Britain), which is much higher than they rate any other country except Canada. Conversely, the Brits rate the US at 68, and the rest of Europe doesn’t go any lower than the Dutch’s 59. Furthermore, Europeans and Americans see the same threats in the world, with terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism ranking the highest. And, both sides agree that war on Iraq would be justified, if backed by the United Nations (complete opposition to the war run at only 13% in the US and 26% in Europe at the time the survey was conducted).

However, worldviews start to diverge when one digs a bit deeper. Generally speaking, Americans find the world a much more threatening place than Europeans do. Most importantly, the two also differ on their analysis of why some threats are there to begin with. For example, 55% of Europeans think that US foreign policies have directly contributed to the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001 (and I would add that a good case can be made that they are not far off the mark).

Americans and Europeans also sharply disagree on how to fix the problems they face. Only 19% of Europeans would like to increase their country’s military spending, as opposed to 44% of Americans (and one need to notice that the US already allocates significantly more money to the military than European countries do). On the other hand, Europeans are much more willing to spend their resources on foreign aid, since a large majority of them sees that as a much more effective key to long-term planetary peace and prosperity. This divergence has major consequences for the whole concept of “superpower”: Americans think that the key to superpower status is a strong military, while many Europeans want a united Europe to become a superpower in the sense of cultural and economic interaction with the rest of the world, opposing more military spending by either their own countries or the European Community as a whole.

If one broadens the horizon beyond the immediate concerns of war and terrorism, other interesting similarities and differences emerge: Americans are only slightly more supportive of globalization than Europeans, and about half of both Americans and Europeans think that global warming is a high-priority threat. However, 66% of Europeans are opposed to some degree to biotechnology, against only 45% of Americans. Perhaps the largest divergence of opinions manifests itself on immigration: 66% of Americans consider it a threat of the highest level, while only 38% of Europeans agree with that assessment (of course, there are differences among European nations themselves, with Italy being on the most worried about immigration).

What are we to make of all this? On the one hand, declarations of an insurmountable divide between the US and Europe are obviously blown out of proportion: we are not witnessing the big schism of Western culture just yet. On the other hand, it would be foolish for anybody (and especially for rather single-minded American politicians) to underestimate the areas of divergence between the two major blocks of world democracies. And please, stop telling the Europeans that they should get in line because America saved them during World War II: gratitude is an important value, but wishing to translate it into perennial and unquestioning allegiance is a bit insulting. And one thing nobody needs is to add any additional insult to the dialogue between the two major democratic blocks of the world.

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 7/19/03 3:07 pm
Back to top
  Facebook it
Chris OConnor Chris OConnor has been starred
Rhodes Scholar
BookTalk.org Owner

Avatar

Usergroups: None


Joined: 05 May 2002


Posts: 7374

Thanks
Given: 64
Received: 21 in 17 Posts

Gender: Male
Location: Florida
us.gif



PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Mar. 2003 - America, Europe, and the rest of the world Reply with quote
Quote:
...55% of Europeans think that US foreign policies have directly contributed to the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001 (and I would add that a good case can be made that they are not far off the mark).

This statistic would make for some interesting discussions. What US foreign policies specifically have fueled the rampant hatred we are seeing for the US? It seems we should be focusing on this root cause a bit more. We can expend our limited resources on chasing down the Bad Guys(TM), but if the reason these people hate the US is not addressed more will replace them once they're nabbed.

I liken the terrorist problem to a bad case of weeds in your garden or yard. Cut the weeds at the base and you temporarily remedy the situation. You create the illusion of a fix. But overtime...the same weed will emerge from the dirt since the roots were left intact. So why do so many in the Middle East hate the US? I'm tired of the propaganda. I'm not falling for "They hate the US because we represent freedom." My ass they do. To thine own self be true. Lets not bullshit ourselves. There are deeper or root causes for their disdain, and I think we had better address them before our beautiful garden is overrun with weeds.

Chris

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 3/8/03 3:39:57 pm
Back to top
  Facebook it
pigliucci
Getting comfortable



Usergroups: None


Joined: 07 Mar 2003


Posts: 6

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Mar. 2003 - America, Europe, and the rest of the world Reply with quote
Chris,

[quote]So why do so many in the Middle East hate the US? I'm tired of the propaganda. I'm not falling for "They hate the US because we represent freedom." My ass they do. To thine own self be true. Lets not bullshit ourselves.[/quote]

Well, I can give you my impression as a European, not a Middle Easterner. As I say in my column, Europeans by and large like Americans, [b]but[/b], we also see America as a big bully that wishes to impose its values, culture, and economic system on the rest of the world.

If [i]Europeans[/i] resist this, despite the fact that our own values, culture, and economic systems are pretty close to the American version, can you imagine what the rest of the world thinks?

Then there is American foreign policy, starting with inaction in the Middle East as far as the Palestinian problem is concerned. The US has often potrayed itself as a peace broker, but often comes across as simply on the side of Israel. (Incidentally, one of the statistics I didn't include in my column is that Europeans are much less favorable to Israeli policies than Americans are.)

Ciao,
Massimo

Back to top
  Facebook it
PowerProf2
Getting comfortable



Usergroups: None


Joined: 30 May 2004


Posts: 5

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Mar. 2003 - America, Europe, and the rest of the world Reply with quote
Quote:
we also see America as a big bully that wishes to impose its values, culture, and economic system on the rest of the world.


If you insist on framing it in those terms, I see this as a kind of zero sum game. If we don't "impose" ourselves on the world, the world will be "imposed" on us.

Quote:
Then there is American foreign policy, starting with inaction in the Middle East as far as the Palestinian problem is concerned. The US has often potrayed itself as a peace broker, but often comes across as simply on the side of Israel. (Incidentally, one of the statistics I didn't include in my column is that Europeans are much less favorable to Israeli policies than Americans are.)


I agree. In fact, I think P.J. O'Rourke has got the right idea. "We can recuse ourselves. We can explain to the court of global public opinion that, because America possesses the largest economy, the widest network of business relationships, and the only effective military force on earth, we have too great a vested interest in world events to render fair and impartial judgment. On every issue of geopolitical adjudication, from 9/11 to the Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change, America is a jury of cops and crime victims. A change in venire has already been called for by noisy street protestors, France and suchlike. Let's accede to the pre-emptory challenge and go home ...

... America will enjoy cleaner air and less traffic congestion as oil goes to $200 a barrel due to chaos in the Middle East. A U.S. withdrawal from the Middle East will cause chaos, of course. Then again, a U.S. intervention in the Middle East has caused chaos already. And, during those periods of history when the U.S. was neither intervening in nor withdrawing from the Middle East, there was . . . chaos. The situation is akin to the famous complaint women have against men: failure to acknowledge that not every problem can be fixed. Sometimes the best thing is just a little sympathy. America had everyone's sympathy after the World Trade towers were attacked. We can get that sympathy back if we limit our foreign policy objectives to whining."


Just so. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Heck with it. Let's support the one true democracy in a sea of thugocracies, kleptocracies, and bloated, dry-rotted aristocracies.

As you may have guessed, my support of both Israel and my country's support of Israel is unabashed and unapolegetic.

Does it not occur to you ... that by purging all sacred images, references, and words from our public life, you are leaving us with nothing but a cold temple presided over by the Goddess of Reason — that counterfeit deity who, as history has proved time and time and time again, inspires no affection, retains no loyalties, soothes no grief, justifies no sacrifice, gives no comfort, extends no charity, displays no pity, and offers no hope, except to the tiny cliques of fanatical ideologues who tend her cold blue flame? - John Derbyshire

Edited by: PowerProf2  at: 5/30/04 8:38 pm
Back to top
  Facebook it
Display replies from:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Politics, Current Events & History  
Page 1 of 1


 
Recent Topics
» Love Poems
by giselle on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:54 pm

» hi all
by martin harrison on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:31 pm

» New Year's Resolutions and Poetry
by DWill on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:21 pm

» Give me liberty and give me a welfare state
by opcode on Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:56 pm

» Poem of the moment
by DWill on Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:52 pm

» Ch. 5: Why I Am An Atheist
by DWill on Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:23 pm

» Suggestions Wanted: Feb. & Mar. 2009 Non-Fiction Book
by DWill on Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:01 pm

» War and Peace
by farmgirlshelley on Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:43 pm

» Ch. 1: Introduction: The Panic of August
by giselle on Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:22 pm

» Consensus
by realiz on Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:08 pm








BookTalk.org Suggests


Pirates of Manhattan by Barry James Dyke

Instant Appeal: The 8 Primal Factors That Create Blockbuster Success by Vicki Kunkel

People of the Book: A Novel by Geraldine Brooks

The Spirit Man by Sean Murphy

Additional Book Suggestions


Featured Videos

Andrew Bacevich
"The Limits of Power"

Andrew Bacevich on The Limits of Power

More Videos

Poll
Should it be illegal to wear a "POLICE" shirt?

It should be illegal because.... [4]
It should be legal because.... [4]

You must login to vote


BookTalk.org is a book discussion group, also known as a reading group or book club. We read and talk about non-fiction books, as a group. Live author chats where book group members can interact with and interview authors are common. We often give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys booktalk.  Booktalk is a free online reading group that features quality book reviews, resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. Non-fiction chat, book forum, literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today. Suggest nonfiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to plug their books or ask for an author chat or interview.

MAIN NAVIGATION

FORUMSABOUTBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSVIDEOSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATECONTACT

BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Bad Money: Reckless Finance, Failed Politics, and the Global Crisis of American Capitalism by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power: The End of American ExceptionalismLolitaOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year-History of the Human Body by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael PollanI, Claudius : From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right by Al FrankenThe Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of Nature by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES
Baloney Detection KitBanned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book SelectionsAdvertise on BookTalk.org

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2009. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca