Feb. 2003 - Gays, in the military and outside of it

belly · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:28 am Post subject: a long rambling reponse

My post is only going to briefly touch on the article itself and will mostly focus and respond to
others posts and responses. My take on Mossimo’s article is that although homosexuality in the
military currently matters, it ideally should not. On this point I agree. Of course it is easy to go
on and on about what *should* be in this world. The reality is that it does not work that way and
at times, we have to settle for what is most practical or best able to deliver the desired outcome.
In this case the desired outcome would have to be clearly defined. For simplicity sake I shall
define said outcome as an efficient and cohesive military unit.

Quote:
The day we can get rid of this silly homophobia crap will be
the day stuff like this doesn’t matter so much. Right now,
however, I do feel homosexuals cause problems with morale.
If the military would simply provide some privacy the problem
would probably become less obvious.
- Chris.

I agree and I disagree. I can see how providing privacy would certainly alleviate some problems
or make them less obvious. Personally I do not want the problems chased underground to
simply become less obvious, I do not see that as a good solution. I also do not see how
increased privacy would be conducive to creating an efficient and cohesive military unit. I think
that being able to function and work as a solid unit is a key part of the military. At a time of
war/action privacy is a luxury most soldiers are not afforded. If they have not gained a high level
of trust and comfort working in tight and sometimes awkward quarters with limited, if any, privacy
this may be more detrimental to unit cohesiveness and morale than being naked in the showers
with a gay soldier. Of course, I have never been a soldier so all I can offer is speculation.

I agree with Mossimo when he writes “I have never understood what the ‘gay problem’ is all
about.” I have been raised in a very open environment and I currently live in a community that
has a very open and diverse gay population. This has never been an issue for me. I am not,
however, so blindly idealistic that I will decide it should not be an issue for anyone else. Reality
varies greatly from my long list of what should and should not be.

Quote:
Imagine how interesting it is to look over and see Seaman
Recruit Peters oggling your glistening naked body sporting
a semi-erection.
-Chris.

My first response to this is that as a female who is sexually attracted to other females - naked or
not - I can honestly say I am not attracted to all females. And that when I use the communal
shower at the local pool I do not ogle all the glistening naked bodies. That being said, I must
now be honest. As a female I often forget that males tend to be more visually stimulated than
most women. As such comparing my experience and tendencies to what I think a males reaction
*should* be is an unfair comparison. I can certainly see how being forced to live and work in
tight quarters with someone who may be sexually attracted to you, when you do not share the
same attraction, would be uncomfortable. I am commenting on this next quote because I found it
amusing (no offense intended.) “So it is no wonder that you can imagine not being aroused after
being around a group of average naked women. You might actually throw up after a while.”
Well, when naked I am an average naked woman and to date I have not made anyone throw up
(that I know of.) I am certainly finding this and interesting train of thought. As I have said I am
slow to remember that men and women tend to respond to visual stimulation differently.

Quote:
A gay man is attracted to men in the same way you are
attracted to women. Just because the gay man hides his
interest while in those showers, the point is the showering
experience is much more to him than it is intended to be
for those men. He is in a state of bliss and this makes every
hetero-male uncomfortable. ...throwing the “opposite” sex
into a room full of naked men is NOT fair to those men.
It is borderline abuse in my opinion.
-Chris.

Here I have to take issue with absolutist statements (though I find it humourous that I am
speaking for gay and straight men.) Not every gay male would be in a state of bliss and not
every hetero-male would be uncomfortable. However, there is a more important point here, that
of borderline abuse. If one were to allow a male into the women’s shower action would certainly
be taken, no questions asked as to the inappropriateness of said event. Were the situation
reversed, any male to speak up about feeling uncomfortable about having a female watch him
shower would most likely be teased and harassed by his buddies. We tend not to consider such
actions against men as abusive and assert that they (men) are better able to deal with such
things and therefore should not complain. Now add gay men to the equation and I have no idea.
I think the line becomes less clear and I honestly have no solution to offer. I think it is important
to note that peoples experience with this issue runs from inconsequential to abusive (compare
the two different experiences of Chris O’Conner and JeffBailey.) And as with most situations it
tends to be the extreme that gets the majority of the attention. This in turn leads many to believe
that this is the norm for said interaction, leading to misconstrued perceptions. This is not to
down play the seriousness of the issue, rather, to point out that many such interactions are
indeed non-events. I think Chris summed it up perfectly with “it is a violation of the heterosexual
mans rights to privacy to allow the homosexual man nonconsensual access to the heterosexual
mans naked body. It is akin to sexual harassment.”

On a personal level I can agree that a shower is not a sexual situation and that being naked is
not a sexual situation. However, in our current society these things easily become sexual. We
use the allure of nakedness in all manners of advertising - sex sells. Is this right or good? Who
knows, it happens and as such we need to be aware of it. There are always those who do not
buy into societal norms but the reality is that the majority does.

So where does the responsibility lay for dealing with this issue? The military has to make
decisions that are practical and can best lead to their desired outcome for military efficiency and
effectiveness. What this decision may entail I honestly cannot guess. I can certainly see a
strong argument for not allowing gays in the military given our current societal attitudes. Is it up
to the military to challenge these norms? It certainly would be interesting if the military were to
take a progressive approach in this but I am not holding my breath. I am not saying that gays
have no right to defend their country, rather, that in knowing the climate and the adversity one
would have to face in such a situation why choose it? There are far better ways to work towards
changing this attitude and perception towards gays in society. As societal attitudes and
reactions change so will those in the military, or at least one would hope.

(Chris, I must apologize, I realized after writing this I have only used quotes from your
responses, that was not intentional. You just lucked out and are tonight’s chosen one!)

belly · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 12:37 am Post subject: re:a long rambling response

My apologies for completly sucking at formatting, i shall explore and hopefully resolve this immediately.
Jenna

Chris OConnor · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: a long rambling reponse

Jenna

That was an incredible post and I'll respond later today when I get a free moment.

Chris

pigliucci

Hi all,

I finally just joined this group, and I hope to have enough time here and there to contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

Gee, didn't think that an article on gays in the military would generate that much discussion!

I've seen a recurrent comment I'd like to address: yes, the point of the column was that someone's sexual orientations shouldn't matter, I am very well aware that they do in the current climate!

Cheers,
Massimo

Timothy Schoonover · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: a long rambling reponse

I am a shy person by nature. I would be extremely uncomfortable in any situation where I would be subjected to intimate exposure in front of my peers. I think that to a certain extent we all feel this way. For me, it does not matter if the "other" (and that is important) is male or female, homosexual or heterosexual. They are "other" and I experience humiliation by such forced subjection. However in any significantly-developed society, this sort of humiliation is unavoidable and there will be certain circumstances in which my/(y)our "privacy" is compromised. Our response to this on the social level, I think, is to define what constitutes as appropriate and inappropriate breaches of one's privacy. In the Navy, for example, same-sex group showering does not constitute as a violation of the individual's privacy for purposes of expediency, when in fact it is a violation. I do not think that by introducing homosexual persons into such an environment constitutes a greater degree of violation than already exists. As I see it, there already exists a degree of underlying unease present in the psyches of those members who have sacrificed their "privacy" in the service of expediency. I feel that this unease is projected upon those that are seen as "other" and is certainly not limited to those grouped under the homosexual marque. A friend of mine, who is serving in the present conflict, was arguing with his mother about giving the members of his unit Easter baskets. His mother wanted to put together a special Easter basket for everyone in his unit, and she wanted him to hand them out (he was on leave during the conversation.) His response to his mother settled the issue with complete finality. He said, "in the military, it's generally a good thing to not stand out." His mother caught his meaning immediately and realized that her behavior would result in no small degree of harassment to her son. This sort of group behavior is known as scapegoating and involves the unconscious projection of various insecurities, guilts, and repressions of the members of the group upon a victim....an "other."

I do think the violation of privacy is at root of the issue, but probably not in exactly the same sense Chris does. The constraints of civilization (and some more than others) by necessity dehumanize individuals through the process of appropriating their autonomy. Humans cope with this dehumanization through process of defining the kinds of subjugation which are or are not appropriate. Over time, these definitions become cannonical and authoritative; they become embedded into our collective identities and in turn come to define us.

I agree that it is a matter of redefining our social perspective on, in this case, homosexuality, but I don't believe that such a redefinition will alleviate the repressed humiliation which results from the more regimented and parochial aspects of our civilization.

cinnamon321 · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: a long rambling reponse

This problem is a difficult one to resolve. I would personally be uncomfortable showering naked in front of anyone not of my choosing, because I see it as a violation of my privacy. (One could argue that by enlisting in the military or going to the gym you have agreed to shower with these people). But if homosexuals had separate showers I think that could also be a problem. (Ok, I'm heterosexual but I think this because some people are so damned homophobic) In some situations a person's sexual orientation is best kept to themselves. Whose business is it what your sexual orientation is unless you choose to tell them? I would think that some gay men would be ashamed of getting and erection in the shower with heterosexual or homosexual men because they know that the other men will see and get uncomfortable.
The only solution I could see if private showers were instituted. Gay, straight, black, white, tall or short, everyone has a right to serve their country.
To add to that---if there were separate showers for gays it's like them sticking a big sticker on their forehead that says "I'M GAY!" and a person's sexual orientation is only one aspect of who they are. A large percentage of people in this country are very shallow and homophobic, and even if they think but don't know for sure if you are gay you will be subject to ridicule beyond belief. I speak from observation and personal experience.

Edited by: cinnamon321 at: 4/23/03 5:01:55 pm


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