No thanks.

Bible makes claims, no evidence for claims. The end.

Nice maneuver there, Houdini!

I think your line of thought here is that because science is able to outline the mechanics of certain natural phenomena, that it in turn explains away the origin of life/nature itself. I guess that might be a sort of Atheist Happy Meal - get more on your plate at a discounted price.

Sure the Bible claims a divine intelligence created the heavens and the earth. That is a claim of origin and nothing else.
The bible is packed with stories of the nature of man, his relationship with god, his reaction to dilemma and sin, etc. Perhaps if you familiarized yourself with what you are being critical of it might help in the future.

I guess for some it is enough to be critical to join the Critical Thinkers Club.

I think your line of thought here is that because science is able to outline the mechanics of certain natural phenomena, that it in turn explains away the origin of life/nature itself. I guess that might be a sort of Atheist Happy Meal - get more on your plate at a discounted price.

Science as a process has helped to illuminate the mechanics of many natural phenomena. If it illuminates the mechanics that lead to life, that does not mean it "explains it away". It's clear that our universe follows specific rules of operation. Those rules of operation account for the emergence of life. If science illuminates those rules in a fashion that makes it seem like fast food to you, maybe you don't understand science?

It's like getting angry at a flashlight because it revealed a plastic bag rather than the ghost you thought it was.


About the bible explaining things... you don't get it ant. Some people don't care. You won't force them to care by re-emphasizing your questions. It's obvious it's a man-made book, whose tales do not sync with reality. You're itching to continue that debate, but in the minds of many people here, it isn't a debate. You're not going to force people to answer questions about how 2+2=5. Even if you have a valid point, the direction you mean to take it is a well worn road.

Can you reference a biblical passage(s) that attempts to set forth an apparatus to explain the mechanistic workings of nature?

Doesn't this qualify?

When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the Lord sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the Lord rained hail on the land of Egypt; hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields—both people and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree.

Exodus 9: 23 - 25

Don't the 10 Plagues also qualify?

"The mechanistic workings of nature" set forth in the Bible = God did it. Perhaps you are correct so far as that supernatural explanation does nothing "to set forth an apparatus to explain the mechanistic workings of nature".

LanDroid wrote:

Can you reference a biblical passage(s) that attempts to set forth an apparatus to explain the mechanistic workings of nature?

Doesn't this qualify?

When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the Lord sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the Lord rained hail on the land of Egypt; hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields—both people and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree.

Exodus 9: 23 - 25

Don't the 10 Plagues also qualify?

"The mechanistic workings of nature" set forth in the Bible = God did it. Perhaps you are correct so far as that supernatural explanation does nothing "to set forth an apparatus to explain the mechanistic workings of nature".

That's a stretch don't you think? I don't see anywhere in these passages that indicates the cause of these types of phenomena to always be "god's will."
This actually is a presentation of miracle and not even close to an attempt to explain the regular mechanistic occurrences of natural phenomena (snow, rain, tornadoes, etc) These passages indicate a singular, miraculous event. Whether said miracles actually happened, there is no way reconstructing the past to find out. He are stuck with a historical claim.

No it's not a stretch. The Bible clearly states sometimes it is indeed God's will. They are not one time miracles, these things happen routinely throughout that document. To this day hurricanes and tornadoes are attributed to God's Holy Wrath against Gay Pride Parades. I don't know exactly how it is determined which natural events are actually supernatural and which are not. Presumably those involving the destruction of homos are supernatural and those (like the following, too close to home) involving lightning bolts that destroy Jesus sculptures or Christian churches are not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGTBFPte-MY

LanDroid wrote:No it's not a stretch. The Bible clearly states sometimes it is indeed God's will. They are not one time miracles, these things happen routinely throughout that document. To this day hurricanes and tornadoes are attributed to God's Holy Wrath against Gay Pride Parades. I don't know exactly how it is determined which natural events are actually supernatural and which are not. Presumably those involving the destruction of homos are supernatural and those (like the following, too close to home) involving lightning bolts that destroy Jesus sculptures or Christian churches are not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGTBFPte-MY

You are speaking of literalists inane interpretations of scripture, and I disagree with your assertion that the verses you referenced explain natural phenomena. It's not even close to an attempt to explain natural regularity. It's a testament to the wrath of a God and his ability to manipulate nature through a "prophet."

It's unbelievable how you see that scripture as a statement of "this is the reason it rains every winter. this is the reason some bugs can fly. this is the reason it gets windy sometimes."

ant wrote:

LanDroid wrote:No it's not a stretch. The Bible clearly states sometimes it is indeed God's will. They are not one time miracles, these things happen routinely throughout that document. To this day hurricanes and tornadoes are attributed to God's Holy Wrath against Gay Pride Parades. I don't know exactly how it is determined which natural events are actually supernatural and which are not. Presumably those involving the destruction of homos are supernatural and those (like the following, too close to home) involving lightning bolts that destroy Jesus sculptures or Christian churches are not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGTBFPte-MY

You are speaking of literalists inane interpretations of scripture, and I disagree with your assertion that the verses you referenced explain natural phenomena. It's not even close to an attempt to explain natural regularity. It's a testament to the wrath of a God and his ability to manipulate nature through a "prophet."

It's unbelievable how you see that scripture as a statement of "this is the reason it rains every winter. this is the reason some bugs can fly. this is the reason it gets windy sometimes."

I'm sure you're going somewhere with this, Ant. Maybe some day . . .

The Bible itself is a historical document, an artifact of ancient myths and beliefs. It certainly contains many beautiful and even wise passages (along with a whole lot of other stuff that's so irrelevant even religious people ignore it). The passages LanDroid quotes are excellent illustrations of of primitive beliefs: that God controls the weather, causes floods and earthquakes to punish, the earth is fix'd, etc. And, yet many people still view the Bible as a religious document, the holy word of God, to the point that Billy Graham invokes the Bible to "protect" marriage in North Carolina and many people buy into that. It's that stupidity that we rail against, not the Bible as a historical document.

Interbane wrote:About the bible explaining things... It's obvious it's a man-made book, whose tales do not sync with reality.

My view is that the Bible has an underlying accurate core of ideas that does sync with reality. I've discussed this before regarding precession of the equinox as a cosmology that provides an original framework for the Biblical myth.

Precession is the star clock for the earth, and was known as such by Biblical authors. Main Bible stories are allegories for the reality of the cosmos, seen through the lens of precession. The story of Jesus matches up to evolution by presenting a vision of how humanity can evolve culturally towards ideals such as love, truth, peace and justice.

The trouble is that to see how the Bible syncs with reality you have to completely junk most conventional theology and start from scratch with an atheist scientific perspective. The idea of the supernatural is totally opposed to evolution and is dangerous and stupid, causing people to hold beliefs that could cause human extinction. God won't save us.

Very few people have any interest or aptitude for a scientific reading of the Bible. Believers accept unscientific junk, and scientists are so offended by the junk that they cannot imagine there is any truth behind it. This is why there is so little space for exploration of how the Bible might have an accurate core.

Conventional faith is a bit like if biologists only focussed on the useless junk DNA, and ignored the coding DNA, the part that actually does anything. The 'coding DNA' for the Bible is the allegory for precession as an accurate long term explanation of time.