Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:50 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Part 1: Of Man 1-16 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Holy Smokes I'm Great

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1614
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 240
Thanked: 305 times in 232 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
Geo, thanks for providing that quote. That's definitely the case. Men are certainly a self serving creature. The first part of that quote, I admit, is why I find it hard to understand Hobbes' view of law and culture. The English practice of common law here is derided.

Men's ignorance... makes him set culture and precedent as his guiding light in judicial proceedings. Isn't law the product of culture? Shouldn't it be? I dunno.

I do like that he says that right and wrong are constantly disputed but his answer is to put one single person in charge of saying what is right and what is wrong. That's just insane. As if a person could judge every single case. As if a person never changed their mind. As if a person lived forever. As if a person KNEW what was right and what was wrong.

Even if this were the case. If a single person did know what was right and what was wrong, culture is sooooo powerful that if his views went against it, it would override this man and probably cause his death if he were in a position of power.



Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:13 am
Profile Email YIM
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor 2

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3176
Location: NC
Thanks: 1065
Thanked: 1136 times in 856 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
Awesome post, Camacho. (The response to Dave) I'd give triple thanks if I could.

I'm going to reread it now.


_________________
-Geo
Question everything


Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:19 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Holy Smokes I'm Great

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1614
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 240
Thanked: 305 times in 232 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
I knew if I kept on posting this day would come. I want to thank my English teacher, my parents, and BT for making this possible.



Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:24 pm
Profile Email YIM
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Pulitzer Prize Finalist


Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 488
Thanks: 44
Thanked: 113 times in 95 posts
Gender: Female
Country: Gambia (gm)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
Sorry everyone for not contributing. Had a sudden death of a close family member. So printed out all your comments so I could digest them all quietly. I tell you - heaven is sitting in a bar in Senegambia, drinking a cold beer, and reading the twenty pages I printed out. But - if there is anything in the newspapers about a paper shortage in Gambia - don't mention my name!


_________________
Life's a glitch and then you die - The Simpsons


Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:52 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Pulitzer Prize Finalist


Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 488
Thanks: 44
Thanked: 113 times in 95 posts
Gender: Female
Country: Gambia (gm)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
And I agree. Camacho's post was awesome. Have we got to Part Two yet?


_________________
Life's a glitch and then you die - The Simpsons


Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:57 pm
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membership
Creative Writing Student


Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 33
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 10 times in 10 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
Good post President, I have been so tied up screwing people out of money (aka working) that I have not had time to give what you said the appropriate amount of thought. I will however, get back to it in the next couple of days. Now back off to screw some more people.



Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:32 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Holy Smokes I'm Great

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1614
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 240
Thanked: 305 times in 232 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
Sorry to hear that heledd. I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts on the book! :)

Dave... lol, good luck with that ;)



Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:11 am
Profile Email YIM
Years of membershipYears of membership
Creative Writing Student


Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 33
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 10 times in 10 posts
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
I don't have much time to respond, due to the fact I seem to have little leisure time as I struggle to right my financial ship after nearly two years without work. So it may take me several post to cover everything I would like to, so bare with me if you could.

I think that when discussing Hobbes one naturally goes toward the discussion of totalitarian government and utopian philiosophy. The reason is that Hobbes theory of government that is proposed in the Leviathan is both totalitarian in nature (but it a monarchy or an oligarchy) he wants to give total power to the sovereign. Related to this he believes he can create the perfect (or near perfect in his estimation) society, utopian if you will. Its hard to think of Hobbes for me without also thinking of Thomas More (much of which Hobbes obviously disliked, one thing in Leviathan seems to address the manner of More's death as a martyr of sorts) and of coures this envaribly leads to Marx and communism (another form of utopianism).

President said " While there has been absolute ZERO examples of pure communism" , but is that true, what would pure communism look like? I think it has been practiced the only way it could have been. Here is the flaw in Marx. Marx said "From each according to his ability to each according to his need", but he never answered the most important question. Who decides ability and and who decides need? That is the downfall of communist theory and why it would never work in the way that Marx's utopian dream wanted it to, it was doomed to be practiced the way it was with some person(s) deciding ability and need and with that comes the human element of prejudices and preferences, not to mention coruption and greed.

Now for the humorus end, I had a friend once tell me that even a five year old could have told Marx that communism won't work and you would end up with lots of dead people. I looked puzzled and he said its right here where it says the abolition of all private property, don't believe me go try to take a five year olds toy away from him.

I think I may have drifted somewhat afield from Hobbes but philosphers seem to have ways of forcing us down paths of thoughts, causing us to explore how things are connected one to the other. Have a good day I am off to screw some more people for my personal advantage.



The following user would like to thank Dave The Marine for this post:
President Camacho
Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:05 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Pulitzer Prize Finalist


Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 488
Thanks: 44
Thanked: 113 times in 95 posts
Gender: Female
Country: Gambia (gm)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
Good posting Dave


_________________
Life's a glitch and then you die - The Simpsons


Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:23 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Holy Smokes I'm Great

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1614
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 240
Thanked: 305 times in 232 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
Dave, thanks for the post. I agree with you about the total submission to a sovereign and how this is Hobbes' Utopia. He sees it as a very practical and utilitarian approach to provide the very basic need of people - their safety.

The people in Hobbes' Utopia have no personal property... not even their own person.

He also makes a good point that we, in our society, have no personal property and that the state can, with the power that it wields with pen and sword, can take our property away from us.

How safe is your personal property in our society?



Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:53 pm
Profile Email YIM
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor 2

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3176
Location: NC
Thanks: 1065
Thanked: 1136 times in 856 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
Dave The Marine wrote:
. . .
I think I may have drifted somewhat afield from Hobbes but philosphers seem to have ways of forcing us down paths of thoughts, causing us to explore how things are connected one to the other. Have a good day I am off to screw some more people for my personal advantage.


Hobbes does make you think. In a capitalistic society, to do well means to outcompete others. So, yes, the natural state of war is still alive and well to some extent. On the other hand it's argued that wealth is actually created and no one loses. I'm not sure I buy this.

I don't see Hobbes advocating a society where no one has the right to own private property. He does say a sovereign may decide the property rights of his or her subjects. Perhaps property rights are used by the sovereign as a carrot to motivate his subjects to stay true to the contract. If we want to maintain possession of our possessions, we need to live in a state of peace and that is ensured only through continued willingness to adhere to the social contract with the commonwealth.


_________________
-Geo
Question everything


Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:05 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Holy Smokes I'm Great

Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1614
Location: Hampton, Ga
Thanks: 240
Thanked: 305 times in 232 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
"That every private man has an absolute Propriety in his Goods; such, as excludeth the Right of the Soveraign."

This is probably the closest that Hobbes gets to admitting that people own property but it shouldn't be taken at face value in my opinion. The sovereign allows people use of his property. Everything belongs to the sovereign. If everything belongs to the sovereign... no one can have personal property - just borrowed stuff.

Even if a person has personal property regarding everyone but one person - that property isn't HIS.

There's a difference between this and everyone-share-everything but the idea that people 'own' property is false.



The following user would like to thank President Camacho for this post:
geo
Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:52 am
Profile Email YIM
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Unbound and Learned

Gold Contributor 2

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3176
Location: NC
Thanks: 1065
Thanked: 1136 times in 856 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Part 1: Of Man 1-16
I usually think we're referring to land ownership when we're talking about private property. But even land ownership is not quite what it sounds like. You own certain rights to the land, but ultimately what you do with it is subject to zoning and land laws that are dictated by the government. Even so, I believe our land ownership is far more liberal than in Hobbes' time.

I've just started the next section, The Commonwealth. Sorry to be so slow.


_________________
-Geo
Question everything


Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:04 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books

Books by New Authors



Booktalk.org on Facebook 



BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Sense and Goodness Without God - by Richard CarrierFrankenstein - by Mary ShelleyThe Big Questions - by Simon BlackburnScience Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2014. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank