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Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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ant

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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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Thanks for your post, Robert.
Just one quick question:
Evolution is completely mechanistic. Positing any non-mechanistic factors is primitive illogical thinking that fails to engage with reality.
Have you addressed my initial questions/comments regarding the origin of life?
Although your argument demonstrates mechanistic evolutionary processes, why does it not commit a genetic fallacy of irrelevant conclusion?

We must be careful not to rely too heavily on fallacious tactics.
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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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ant wrote:
Yes, it is possible that Thor exists. But do you consider yourself agnostic about Thor?
non sequitur
I don't think so, because that's precisely what people are arguing when they use their version of God as a possible explanation of existence and life.
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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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Dexter wrote:
ant wrote:
Yes, it is possible that Thor exists. But do you consider yourself agnostic about Thor?
non sequitur
I don't think so, because that's precisely what people are arguing when they use their version of God as a possible explanation of existence and life.

There's an explanation for thunder.
But if we need to red herring this issue, so be it.

Can you prove that there is no teapot orbiting Saturn right now?
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Dexter

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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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ant wrote: There's an explanation for thunder.
But if we need to red herring this issue, so be it.

Can you prove that there is no teapot orbiting Saturn right now?
Fine, substitute another one for Thor. You're the one dodging the point.
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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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Dexter wrote:
ant wrote: There's an explanation for thunder.
But if we need to red herring this issue, so be it.

Can you prove that there is no teapot orbiting Saturn right now?
Fine, substitute another one for Thor
Okay.., Dionysus - The god of wine, parties and festivals, madness, drunkenness and pleasure

We already know the origin of wine (grapes)

People create and manage parties (but it begs the question, "Who created people/life?")

Madness is a state of mind, perhaps due to chemical imbalances, which originate in the brain.

Drunkenness - I've been responsible for my own drunkenness on more than one occasion. But I think it's safe to say drunkenness is caused by people.

Pleasure is a tough one - it is a subjective experience. I'll give you this one. Maybe Dioysus does exist.


I don't think I'm dodging the point.
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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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ant wrote: Correct - but sorta correct :P
I am generalizing about certain common atheistic bigots, not prominent atheists like Smolin or Dawkins. Quite frankly, I greatly admire Dawkins and his work. I'm against his militant attitude against religion, but nevertheless, I admire his work.

In his book, The God Delusion, Dawkins recommends Finding Darwin's God, by Kenneth R Miller. It's a great book.
I look to serious atheists who, like Dawkins, are intellectually honest enough to admit they don't have all the answers.
I forgot which debate it was, but in that debate, Dawkins stated that although he believes it is highly improbable that there is a god, as a scientist he can not rule out the possibility completely. His opponent responded by indicating that at best, by definition that would make Dawkins an agnostic and not an atheist.
Thanks for correcting my assumption of which segment of atheists you were talking about. It's really important for us to be clear on what we don't know. Theists say that God explains everything; atheists may exhibit the same thinking in saying that science has explained everything, or they may be making a faith statement when they say science will explain everything.

Somebody said recently that we can be against only a particular conception of god, and I think that's true for Dawkins, Hitchens and the rest. They are in fact writing against the monotheistic God as well as any other that also supposedly has revealed the truth to select humans and requires of them definite beliefs and actions. That is what they call religion, even though many object that the word needs to be more broadly applied. Dawkins may have said that he can't rule out, through science, the existence of god, but I wager that he would say he can do so regarding the God of the Bible. I would agree with him on that, being 100% certain that the God portrayed there isn't real. I still can't offer proof to satisfy believers, but I see no point in hedging about what I think. So I am atheist regarding that god and any other that is a theism in a meaningful sense. I'm agnostic about a mysterious 'something else' that we may not be able to comprehend or discover.
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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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ant wrote:Thanks for your post, Robert. Just one quick question:
Evolution is completely mechanistic. Positing any non-mechanistic factors is primitive illogical thinking that fails to engage with reality.
Have you addressed my initial questions/comments regarding the origin of life?
Although your argument demonstrates mechanistic evolutionary processes, why does it not commit a genetic fallacy of irrelevant conclusion? We must be careful not to rely too heavily on fallacious tactics.
ant wrote:It's fascinating to me how fervent militant atheists are with their feverish insistence that there is no god. It is nearly identical to religious fanaticism, something they also claim to detest. It's really quite funny when you think about it. As I've stated before, when science becomes dogma, it is no better than religious dogma.
Hi Ant, this is all good grist to the mill. I have faith in science, so you are right in my case, just in your observation that there is a similarity in the certainty displayed between some forms of militant atheism and religion.

However, the big difference is that militant atheism is compatible with everything we see, whereas theism is incompatible with everything we see. So dogmatism in science, which means regarding ideas such as the theory of evolution as necessarily true, is actually far better, more informative and more accurate than any religious dogma, simply because it is true. Far better to insist on correct ideas than to insist on false ones. Moral reasoning should start with evidence.

As to the supposed 'genetic fallacy' arising from the observation that science has not been able to create life, yes the origin of life is an unknown. The possibilities are that when you have the ingredients for life on a planet, it will eventually happen (scientific evolution), that life is seeded from elsewhere in the universe (panspermia), or that an old man in the sky, egged on by Jesus at his right hand, said 'let there be light' and behold it was good, evening and morning, the first day (theism).

Looking at the history of each of these ideas, theism sought to explain creation before humanity had the scientific knowledge to formulate a more plausible account. The fact that we cannot yet explain how life started does not make theistic explanations more plausible than atheist explanations.

You certainly have a flourish when it comes to rhetoric, ant. Just in one short paragraph, we get "fascinating .. fervent militant atheists .. feverish insistence .. nearly identical to.. fanaticism.. quite funny .. when science becomes dogma"

Sadly, your attack on science is entirely free of content, except the observation that the efforts of science to avoid faith are futile. To argue with religious evangelists with their rigid certainty and arrogant moral vanity, science has to adopt the same attitude of faith, saying that scientific knowledge is absolutely correct while religious error is absolutely false. Scientific purists see this as degrading the method of science, but politically it is necessary, simply because expressing doubt allows unscrupulous opponents to manipulate the public.

It is not that religion is meaningless, because we can still salvage some symbolic value in Genesis and other texts, but that anyone who says religious claims may be literally true when they conflict with science is insane.
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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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The only thing is, Robert, that I would have to ask, what "attack on science?" The criticism has been not of science but on certain proponents of science who most likely aren't themselves scientists. I'm not joining in that criticism here, just saying that I suspect that it's more typical of scientists not to ballyhoo the superiority of science. They tend to be a more cautious lot, very conservative in fact about claims. Sam Harris says that he's always impressed by the severe restriction of what researchers are willing to advocate; they don't go far out on the limb at all, even about matters that may seem minute. Harris says this in order to refute the conception that scientists are arrogant defenders of Science. Most don't care to man the political barricades, and for that we can be thankful.

Probably Richard Dawkins is the scientist who very publicly has promoted science in general as a better way to find out the truth. But he seems to be atypical of this reticent profession, and in addition he is too smart to think that the name "science" confers any credibility, since bad science is not uncommon. It may be non-scientists who place a bit too much faith in anything falling under the rubric of science.
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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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ant wrote: . . . It's fascinating to me how fervent militant atheists are with their feverish insistence that there is no god. It is nearly identical to religious fanaticism, something they also claim to detest.
It's really quite funny when you think about it.
As I've stated before, when science becomes dogma, it is no better than religious dogma.
I wouldn't describe any of BT regulars as militant atheists. I know they exist, but they just don't seem to hang around here. Whereas we do get Creationists rolling through here every once in a while. One even took up residence for a couple of years. I always try to remember that theists are rarely Creationists, and I would suggest that theists might want try to remember that the vast majority of atheists are not Atheists. Creationism and Atheism (with a capital 'A'—defined as ideological belief that God definitely does not exist) are both fringe positions. Although I think there are a lot of Creationists out there, and some people, like Dawkins, are often viewed as militant atheists when, in fact, they are just railing against the stupidity of Creationism.

These heated debates over the existence of God probably have more to do with the belief in God as the fallback position when science doesn't have an explanation. I would say the guy who started this thread was attempting to offer a simplistic explanation for the beginnings of life in order to make room for his belief in God. It's the classic God-of-the-gaps argument. I was trying to cut through the chase and get to the crux of the matter which is that there's no scientific evidence for God and belief in him has to be based on faith. If someone needs to belittle science to make room for God, it's a fallacious approach out of the gate and any kind of rational debate is impossible.
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Re: Is evolutionary chance impossible?

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This attitude that scientists are "above having faith" is a purist line that makes them seem oh so holy in their principled reticence. There is arrogance and there is arrogance. Saying you cannot know anything with certainty is arrogant, and a lie. This affected humility is a dangerous deceit.

It leaves the public in doubt as to the truth of scientific knowledge because scientists come across as cowards who lack the courage of their convictions. So we get a failure of political engagement by timid scientists and a refusal to enter moral debate about the big questions of our day, such as climate change.

The idea of atheism as unmilitant is a lukewarm failure of integrity. But militancy does not mean hostility towards religion, it simply means absolute certainty regarding epistemology, that science presents a consistent and coherent materialist explanation for reality.
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