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GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

#4: Sept. - Oct. 2002 (Non-Fiction)
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DWill

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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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I became separated from my copy of the book over the holidays, so I'm working from memory, with the aid of summaries of the chapters on writing and invention from a handy online synopsis (http://www.mcgoodwin.net/pages/gungermsteel.html)
Chapter 12: Blueprints and Borrowed Letters

The use of writing originated in SW Asia with Sumerian cuneiform (c. 3000 BC, logograms evolving to phonetic symbols and determinatives etc.), Mesoamerica (c. 600 BC), and probably China (1300 BC). Other cultures adopted writing by blueprint copying or less directly by idea diffusion. Writing systems may incorporate various combinations of logograms (representing words: e.g., much of Chinese, English symbols such as $, %), syllabaries (representing syllables: e.g., Linear B, Japanese kana), and letters contained in alphabets (representing roughly single sounds, though in some cases, a phoneme may be represented by 2 or more letters). Other possible independent sites of writing were Egypt (3000 BC) and Easter Island. Mycenaean Linear B developed 1400 BC from the Linear A syllabary of Minoan Crete. The alphabet arose from Egyptian hieroglyphs for consonant sounds, which Semites c. 1700 initially adapted. The Greeks adapted the Phoenician alphabet, adding vowel sounds (c. 8C BC). The Etruscans modified the Greek alphabet and later the Romans, leading to the Latin alphabet we now use. The Cherokee Indian Sequoyah developed a writing system for writing Cherokee using 85 symbols, including some from our own alphabet though not according to our usage. Other writing systems include Han'gul of Korea, ogham (Ireland), and the Rongorongo script of Easter Island.

Writing was initially used in complex stratified societies by an elite few (e.g., professional scribes) to maintain palace records and manage bureaucratic accounts (e.g., in Sumeria, records of goods paid in and out), collect taxes, facilitate enslavement (a principal use according to Levi-Strauss), promulgate propaganda and myths, promote religious practice, etc. Writing was not used by hunter-gatherer societies. Some complex food-producing societies never developed writing (e.g., Incas, Tonga, Hawaii, Mississippi Valley Indians, subequatorial and sub-Saharan West Africa--probably because of isolation and failure of idea diffusion).
It's not hard to see why writing would develop in "complex stratified societies," and why it just wasn't something needed in simpler societies. Compared to oral language, the rudiments that writing systems start with have little to recommend them for use by the culture. They are clumsy and only utilitarian compared to the rich resources of oral language. We might view societies without writing as primitive, but we should also appreciate the accomplishment of transmitting culture and information entirely without writing.

It's a bit harder to understand how some complex food-producing societies got along without writing, since the first use of it would be as an administrative tool. Diamond cites as reasons isolation, the failure of idea diffusion, and simply the lack of more time. From Diamond's discussion, it seems that long ago, just as now, it wasn't always necessary for a culture to be especially innovative, as long as it was receptive to using innovations from other places. This is where blueprint copying and idea diffusion come in. Today we hear a lot about China relying on the innovations of the West, yet the eagerness of the Chinese to put our inventions to work has propelled them to the no. 2 rank of world economies.

Although writing systems began as the tools of the elite, and literacy remained uncommon for centuries in most cultures that had it, the rise of the modern nation-state was linked to larger proportions of literate citizens. Business ran on writing. Protestantism and democratic movements were also spurs to literacy. Today, high literacy rates correlate with high per capita income or at least high GDP (as in China).
Chapter 13: Necessity's Mother

The Phaistos disk (disc) The first printed (stamped, not handwritten) document is the Cretan Minoan Phaistos disk of 1700 BC, but it did not lead to a proliferation of printing apparently because it was ahead of its time, lacked receptive circumstances and supporting technology, etc . Though necessity is sometimes the mother to invention (e.g., cotton gin, nuclear weapons, steam engine), invention often precedes the creation of necessity (e.g., airplane, light bulb) and arises cumulatively from creative geniuses building by trial and error on the discoveries of their capable predecessors.

Early models of inventions often perform poorly and appear unconvincing. The flourishing of inventions requires acceptance within a society, which is influenced by the invention's: (1) economic advantage, (2) social value and prestige, (3) compatibility with vested interests, and (4) ease with which its advantages can be observed. Receptivity to technological innovation varies from society to society and is increased by (1) longer human life expectancy, (2) lack of availability of cheap or slave labor or a high cost of labor, (3) patents or other legal protections, (4) ready availability of technical training, (5) rewards for investment via capitalism, etc., (6) individualism, (7) encouragement of risk-taking, (8) scientific outlook, (9) tolerance of diverse views, (10) religious tolerance and religious encouragement of innovation, (11) ±war, (12) ±strong central government, (13) ±rigorous climate, and (14) ±abundant resources. Receptivity to innovation varies widely on each continent. Most new developments arrive by diffusion, which for places with geographic or ecologic barriers is limited.

Food production and large population and land mass favor more rapid technological development--e.g., in Eurasia. In New Guinea and other areas of the world, conservative (resistant) and more receptive societies lived side by side. The Navajo more than other Indian tribes adapted European use of dyes for weaving and took up ranching. The receptivity to innovation in Islam and China has varied over time. Thus no continent has been unusually innovative or noninnovative over history.

Important inventions such as guns can allow a culture to overrun another. Yet in Japan, the samurai restricted the adoption of guns until Commodore Perry arrived 1853. Other examples of cultures rejecting new innovations include the Tasmanians (fishing), China (ocean going ships), and Polynesians (pottery in some areas).

Technology is autocatalytic, begetting more technology, and the rate of development can accelerate dramatically.

The main factors leading to the difference in technological development between the conquering Europeans and the New World inhabitants were: level of food production, barriers to diffusion, and differences in human population.
This chapter raises a possible contradiction in Diamond's thesis. All along, he has been saying that cultural factors didn't figure in whether a given group of people adopted food production, animal domestication, and writing. Geography was the sole determinant. But when it comes to less basic, more advanced innovations, he cites a multitude of cultural factors that can make a culture either technologically progressive, or not. I suppose he would say that these cultural traits still do not relate to differences in innate abilities. Even if they don't, could culture, even at its most basic, have been part of the reason for cultures not adopting food production or domesticating animals? Diamond sees the facts as decisive at this level. If the plants and animals weren't available, or they didn't migrate easily from other areas, a given people wouldn't be able to use them. What it might come down to is whether we're looking at areas that originated food production or areas or groups that adopted it. For the originators, Diamond says there was no consciousness of trying to domesticate plants and animals. There was a need to feed growing populations, so whatever presented itself as a better way to do that would be used. For the potential adopters, there could be choice based on whether food production was a more efficient way to provide calories. If it wasn't, why change to it? Diamond cited examples of h-g groups that didn't change to food production after learning that neighboring groups were doing it. So it seems clear that cultures can formulate responses to technology on a more or less conscious level, as opposed to what was happening when the earliest peoples were moving gradually toward farming.
Last edited by DWill on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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DWill: It's unfortunate you've become separated from your GG&S, oh well, it is a hefty tome to lug about, makes one appreciate the Kindle. Thanks for your helpful comments even without the tome.

With regards to holding a view of the primitiveness of oral societies, my personal opinion is that this is a bias that we hold as a literate society who are proud of our accomplishments and we are generally too myopic to see the value of the oral tradition. In modern times, the residual oral societies have become so few and so weak that this further corroborates our bias, although there are more cases recently of oral knowledge being valued.

But I do think that writing is well suited to certain advances that would have been too awkward, time consuming or even impossible if attempted orally. The earliest uses of writing for accounting purposes (making this an old profession but still not the oldest) I think demonstrates this. Writing is just the sensible way to keep accounts and to establish contracts and make other business arrangements. When computer applications were in their earlier phase, so many applications were business and finance oriented because the technology lends itself so well to this area. Gradually, computer applications related to arts and culture are being developed but it has taken decades to get there (a long time in the computer world) and I would suggest that the fit is much tougher to make and the technology had to morph into something quite different before it was usable.

Writing works really well for certain types of communication, in fact, may be a necessary prerequisite, but for other communication, say an epic story or knowledge about one's environment, a healthy oral tradition might do just fine. Diamond clearly uses adoption of technology as a yardstick of development, really as a way to establish a pecking order of societies from primitive to complex and stratified, and I think writing was essential to technological development (seems unlikely that the steam engine could have been developed in an oral society) so these two feed each other.

I think Diamond is too technology focused and I don't think he emphasizes other forms of development as having value, for example, cultural development, where writing would not have been such an essential platform and advantage, hence the bias against oral tradition ...
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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As usual, I have fallen behind and am playing catch up. I have two thoughts to share -- I should really read all the posts before I make them, but what the hell. First, it seems to me the real driver here is population size. And thought number two is: I am not convinced that it is "people freed from producing food" that is the impetus for the "progress" of society (centralized government, writing, etc.). I think a better case can be made that centralized government, writing, etc. develope to meet the need for technologies to deal with, 1. managing the increased number of people in the group and 2. to manage the wealth created by the new mode of food production. Ok, now I will go back and read over everyones posts.
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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DWill wrote:...But what I wanted to talk about was the first chapter in the section on germs. Diamond is good at taking large chunks of time and geography and imposing a coherent pattern on them. He makes us see how vital the evolution of microbes is to understanding our history. I was especially interested in how the existence of a New World without any crowd diseases before the arrival of Europeans lends a kind of credence to the New World as an Edenic place. It was indeed thought of in those terms by Europeans after they received news of the place from explorers and missionaries.
I agree with the first statement and a "me too" to the second.
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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DWill wrote: I got to thinking about the effect of the great epidemics that are of fairly recent origin (about the last 2,500 years). The social effects must have been great, and perhaps epidemics retarded the advent of modern, scientific societies. Maybe they were a primary cause, whereas feudalism and Christianity could have been secondary causes.
In one of my grad classes (Death & Dying) I remember reading something along this thought line.
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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Haven't read Guns Germs and Steel, but i just saw the 3 episode show of the same name hosted by Diamond.

very interesting stuff.

I think he's probably nailed the majority of this issue (inequality) down with his focus on geographic advantages.
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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In a general way, and up to the threshold of the modern era, I think his ideas on geography explain a lot. When he tries to apply the thesis more specifically to geopolitics, I don't think he's persuasive on the decisiveness of geography. For example, geography doesn't explain why it was Spain, specifically, that made the earliest inroads into the New World. Geography can only help explain why European countires in general were in the position to be the exploiters and conquerors. With China, Diamond says that it lost out to Europe again because of geographical disadvantages, but his case seems weak, based on a supposed too-high level of political unity in China that made the whole area subject to the whims of the emperor. What kept China from being top dog was cultural and historical factors that have at best a weak link to geography.
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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Chapter 13: Necessity's Mother
This chapter is giving me fits. I've got scribbles all over the pages. I can tell I am being lead somewhere, but I just can't sit still long enough to get there. This man uses too many words. I am too tired to finish the chapter tonight, but I think he is just making another version of his same argument: Eurasia and Western Europe in particular, surged ahead in development because all the necessary ingredients were present in just the right formula. More from me tomorrow.
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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Saffron wrote:Chapter 13: Necessity's Mother
This chapter is giving me fits. I've got scribbles all over the pages. I can tell I am being lead somewhere, but I just can't sit still long enough to get there. This man uses too many words.
I had a chuckle over your comment Saffron, I think it is possible to have a fit while reading GG&S, maybe even likely. I keep having a sort of 'deja vu' because several times I'm sure that I have already read something that I am reading. I looked back at Chpt 13, I found his discussion of the Phaitos disk (sp) interesting but as DWill has commented I think he loses the connectedness or flow of his argument when he strays from geographical and biophysical focus to other areas. Its as if those pesky humans get in the way of a good, persuasive, scientific argument by doing unpredictable stuff (scientifically unpredictable) like messy and unscientific cultural development or somewhat irrational political decisions (Chinese ships for example) ... he acknowledges this 'unpredictability' point in the Epilogue as one factor that may challenge historical 'science' (his term) as a bona fide science that could measure up to physics or chemistry, or even just astronomy.
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Re: GGS 3: From Food to Guns, Germs and Steel

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I keep having to remind myself not to take into full account the last 500 years when reading Diamond. That's not to disparage what he's done here, but to acknowledge the effect of industrialization and globalization, especially in regard to transportation and communication. It doesn't make that much difference anymore whether a country produces food. If it has oil wealth, like Qatar (richest country per capita), it can easily obtain whatever it needs. Isolation isn't much of a handicap now, either.

Again to give Diamond credit, he does tip his hat to the role of pure chance in history. I forget which later chapter that's in (still without my book). I don't hear him proposing a historical science that would make human events predictable and rational. I don't think anyone seriously believes that can ever happen. He thinks science can apply to history at a far higher level of generality. Maybe it can. For instance, he has proved to my satisfaction that differences in the use of food production and technology aren't due to innate differences in abilities between geographic groups. He uses a lot of scientific evidence to support that conclusion. I don't think he means to say that history can ever be as empirically exact as physics or astronomy, only that there are often scientific techniques that can yield evidence about what happened and why, and perhaps to some degree what will happen.
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