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Frank 013 
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:02 am Post subject:
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Atilla’s religion…
While it is true that Atilla was no Christian and paid little attention to traditional religious fan fair he did seem to be motivated by superstition.
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Atilla was said to have found a sword of the war god Mars buried in the ground of a field, with which he was an invincible warrior. Atilla probably did find a sword of some dead warrior and believed it to be a sign that he was destined to rule the world.
hyperhistory.net |
Once again we see a power hungry manic fueled by the thought that their destiny was ordained by some god or another.
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Penelope
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:29 am Post subject:
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Frank - I stand corrected on the subject of Vlad.
Sigh......
I guess there are no depths to which the human race cannot sink....and yet there seems to be glass ceiling through which we cannot rise...... |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:48 am Post subject:
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It has been said that religion or not good people will always do good and evil people will always do evil, but for good people to do evil it takes religion.
As far as the glass ceiling goes… I wouldn’t give up on humanity just yet, we are still learning and it is a long process hampered by many things, one of which is religion but that is certainly not our only hurtle, despite these setbacks progress has been made and I hope will continue.
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Robert Tulip
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:40 am Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
| It has been said that religion or not good people will always do good and evil people will always do evil, but for good people to do evil it takes religion. |
Frank, again, I disagree. You would also know Keynes comment that “Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.” My point here is that all good action is theory-laden, dependent on an idea. You can’t assume that ‘good people will always do good’ without a coherent shared narrative which provides a reason to do good. That is what Paul meant by salvation by faith – good works must be grounded in an explicit reason and purpose. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject:
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RT
You can’t assume that ‘good people will always do good’ without a coherent shared narrative which provides a reason to do good. That is what Paul meant by salvation by faith – good works must be grounded in an explicit reason and purpose. |
Let me get this straight… your saying that without some external bribe (or in the case of Christianity… threat) that good behavior is not possible?
Acting good only because of some perceived reward or escape from punishment is not good, it is simply obedience.
A genuinely good act comes from a person without any expectation of reward (in this life or the next) and those types of acts do exist, I have seen it many times.
In addition I have offered my assistance without any explicit reason or purpose… except that of the person’s need.
From what I gather from your statement that should not be possible, unless I misunderstood what you wrote.
Religions do not make people good this fact has been shown time and time again. But religious belief has been twisted to manipulate normally decent people into doing terrible things.
None of this is even remotely in dispute and that is what is being said by the statement you disagree with.
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject:
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Is there such a thing as true altruism then Frank?
If there is.....we must have evolved far further than I realised......I hadn't noticed. 
Hope your knee is better today.....you know what I think about the benefits of kneeling!!!  |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject:
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Penelope
Is there such a thing as true altruism then Frank?
If there is.....we must have evolved far further than I realized......I hadn't noticed. |
I think that there is… I have seen it in the military and in law enforcement. The reward in the cases I have witnessed is not personal but in favor of the person being helped.
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Penelope
Hope your knee is better today.....you know what I think about the benefits of kneeling!!! |
My knee does not hurt, but it does ache and feels weak. Kneeling is out of the question for the moment. 
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DWill
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject:
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[quote="Frank 013"]
As far as the track record of secular government… currently on this planet the most civilized, crimeless, fair and free governments are the most secular ones.
I just wanted to quickly clarify that in no way was I suggesting that secular governments have a bad track record. Governments should always be secular, a view that puts me in conflict with most Muslims, probably. What I was trying to say was that ideology that declares itself as atheist has also seemingly been responsible for for millions of murders in the 20th Century. (I say "seemingly" because I don't necessarily agree that particular beliefs we ascribe to people are responsible for what they do.)
I admire the way you've patiently and logically pursued your argument. I might appear stubbornly resistant to your evidence for the inherent danger of monotheistic belief (are you less down on polytheism?). If I am stubborn, the reason is that, as a diagnosis of why things go so wrong in societies, the religion thesis seems so wanting. If you could remove a religious belief that apparently is perpetuating suffering in Africa, unfortunately the way would not then be paved to enlightened action. There could be many other "reasons", not based in religion, invented to not do what seems to be right. One leader in South Africa promotes belief that AIDS is a myth. This comes from no religion, but clearly could be harmful if others are taken in by his reasoning.
Bottom line for me, I guess: humans are just as dangerous without apparent religious motivation as with it. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:18 am Post subject:
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DWill
I admire the way you've patiently and logically pursued your argument. I might appear stubbornly resistant to your evidence for the inherent danger of monotheistic belief (are you less down on polytheism?). |
I am against any belief that demands that faith be observed above reason, and dogma above personal rights, but right now there is one belief in particular that invades my life regularly and that is the one I focus on the most... Christianity.
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DWill
If I am stubborn, the reason is that, as a diagnosis of why things go so wrong in societies, the religion thesis seems so wanting. |
I am not sure why you insist on this, there is in fact overwhelming evidence that in today’s age less religious societies are the most civil, respectful and prosperous.
In short, modern societies where religion has the least amount of power have the most personal freedom and the best civil track records.
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DWill
If you could remove a religious belief that apparently is perpetuating suffering in Africa, unfortunately the way would not then be paved to enlightened action. There could be many other "reasons", not based in religion, invented to not do what seems to be right. One leader in South Africa promotes belief that AIDS is a myth. This comes from no religion, but clearly could be harmful if others are taken in by his reasoning. |
That is true to some extent but I will again point out that religion has elements that make it more dangerous and more sustaining in its dogma.
Religions encourage bigotry by setting one irrational belief against others; religions encourage blind devotion to their gods and in many cases to their religious leaders. Religions also encourage following dogma above reason or education. Finally what other belief can encourage action (any action) by offering everlasting paradise?
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DWill
Bottom line for me, I guess: humans are just as dangerous without apparent religious motivation as with it. |
This is true, but if you could remove one reason for acting violently towards your fellow man wouldn’t that be beneficial, even if it did not completely eliminate the problem?
It seems to be working in the countries that have managed to make it happen…
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DWill
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject:
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| I am not sure why you insist on this, there is in fact overwhelming evidence that in today’s age less religious societies are the most civil, respectful and prosperous |
.
About this, I'd reply with the words Voltaire was supposed to have used about Christianity: "Important if true." You'll understand, I'm sure, why I'll need to see this evidence for myself, be satisfied that such ideas as civility and respect have been somehow measured, and see that there could really be a link of causation, not just correlation, between low religious affiliation and these positive qualities. In passing, I note that the U.S. is a religious society. It is prosperous, and I think if we are speaking comparatively, it is also a society in which civility and respect are the norm.
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| This is true, but if you could remove one reason for acting violently towards your fellow man wouldn’t that be beneficial, even if it did not completely eliminate the problem? |
But religion is not monolithic. It includes so many shades and degrees of belief, some of which may be harmful in the wrong hands, some of which are benign. A religious belief has little determined character in itself; everything depends on believer's use of it (compare it to a firearm, not dangerous unless misused). Religious beliefs can be conveniently singled out for elimination just by virtue of being under the umbrella of religion, while other beliefs that we have agreed can be just as dangerous in the wrong hands, escape being targeted.
I think what we need is a typology of belief that would encompass both secular and religious beliefs. Someone may have done something like this. We need more psychological precision to classify the things people are said to believe. I'm still strongly inclined to think that a rather militant stance against religion, per se, is never going to produce genuine understanding and consensus, only more culture wars.
Sorry to abuse anyone's patience with all of this. I don't speak as a believer of any kind, only as someone who values liberalism (my own idea of it, not the political version). |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:00 am Post subject:
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Will
You'll understand, I'm sure, why I'll need to see this evidence for myself, be satisfied that such ideas as civility and respect have been somehow measured, and see that there could really be a link of causation, not just correlation, between low religious affiliation and these positive qualities. |
Then you should take a look at some of the latest studies to find out if you agree…
In those studies religious people were shown (per capita) to be more hypocritical, bigoted and ignorant of the subjects that they claimed to care about then their atheist counterparts as well as having a higher criminal percentage and divorce rate.
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Will
In passing, I note that the U.S. is a religious society. It is prosperous, and I think if we are speaking comparatively, it is also a society in which civility and respect are the norm. |
Following are the results of such studies...
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America, which is the most religious nation in the industrialized West, not only has higher rates of crime than less religious nations, but also has the highest rates of social dysfunction on every measurable scale. Even within America, areas with the highest rates of religiosity have the highest rates of crime and social dysfunction. Americans with no religious preference, which includes most atheists, are under-represented in the American prison system relative to their numbers in the general population.
atheism.about.com/od/isatheismdangerous/a/RiskyCrime |
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The Barna Research Group, an evangelical Christian organization that does surveys and research to better understand what Christians believe and how they behave, studied divorce rates in America in 1999 and found surprising evidence that divorce is far lower among atheists than among conservative Christians — exactly the opposite of what they were probably expecting.
11% of all American adults are divorced
25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce
27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced
21% of atheists have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
24% of Mormons have been divorced
25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
29% of Baptists have been divorced
24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced
27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced
26% of people in the West have been divorced
19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced
atheism.about.com/od/atheistfamiliesmarriage/a/AtheistsDivorce |
In every modern study religion has been linked to higher rates of bigotry, violence, social dysfunction and crime.
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Penelope
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject:
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I think what we need is a typology of belief that would encompass both secular and religious beliefs. Someone may have done something like this. We need more psychological precision to classify the things people are said to believe. I'm still strongly inclined to think that a rather militant stance against religion, per se, is never going to produce genuine understanding and consensus, only more culture wars.
Sorry to abuse anyone's patience with all of this. I don't speak as a believer of any kind, only as someone who values liberalism (my own idea of it, not the political version). |
Above is a quote from DWill -
To take your last paragraph first. You are not abusing anyone's patience. These issues need to be addressed.....
I agree with you that evangelical or fundamentalist atheism is never going to work....even with such a charismatic proclaimer as our Frank....
There is something in the human soul....that searches for a pattern....we might call it God.......we might not.
Chaos theory makes nice TeeShirts when computerised.....as Terry Pratchet says.....but it is unacceptable to the rational mind.
OK - so the Christian Doctrine is perhaps too mythologised......although, the words attributed to the Jesus character.....are very profound and worth considering.,...and....can change ones perpective on life. Does it really matter if Jesus is not historically accurate?
If we have a deeper sense of self.....than just the body..If the corporal reality of us is not the true reality....then the people, like Jesus and Buddha who taught us about our eternal lives, are worth considering.....but THEY ARE NOT WORTH FIGHTING ABOUT. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject:
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Penelope
To take your last paragraph first. You are not abusing anyone's patience. These issues need to be addressed..... |
I agree, no one abusing my patience, I like discussing this stuff. 
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Penelope
I agree with you that evangelical or fundamentalist atheism is never going to work....even with such a charismatic proclaimer as our Frank.... |
Technically there is no such thing as evangelical or fundamentalist atheism; Fundamentalist atheism cannot exist because there are no 'fundamental' beliefs for atheists to hold.
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Fundamentalism is a label applied to religious movements that, at the very least, emphasize the importance of "fundamental" beliefs in contrast to modern developments. Atheism isn't even a philosophy or a belief system, much less a religion, but even if we ignore that we still have to conclude that "fundamentalist" can't apply here because the rejection of religion isn't a "fundamental" belief.
There is also a real double-standard here in that irreligious atheists who are critical of religion are expected to "moderate" their negative conclusions about religion, but you don't see similar statements about religious theists who think religion is a good thing. Why aren't theists "dogmatic" for insisting that religion is necessarily a good thing and who are not interested in further research before latching on to this conclusions firmly? Why aren't Christians called "fundamentalists" when they insist that Christianity is a force for good and without wondering if further research will prove them right?
atheism.about.com/od/fundamentalistatheists/a/AtheistDogmatic |
And just to be clear Penelope, I do not think you meant to imply that that is what I am doing. I just thought I would clear up the terminology for future discussion.
As I have said before I do not condone forcing my belief on others, but I would like the same courtesy from the religious, a courtesy I have yet to see.
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Penelope
OK - so the Christian Doctrine is perhaps too mythologized......although, the words attributed to the Jesus character.....are very profound and worth considering.,...and....can change ones perspective on life. Does it really matter if Jesus is not historically accurate? |
Not to me… I can see the wisdom in some of the words of Jesus just as I can in Yoda or Mr. Spock. But I doubt you will find many religious people share that view.
What bothers me the most is the blatant lying of the church; which include the insistence that Jesus was a historic character without a speck of credible evidence.
Another false claim is the Christianity is a force for good claim.
Any honest look at the history of Christianity will show that not only is the claim not true but it has never been true.
What Jesus is currently said to stand for is another matter altogether.
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DWill
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:13 am Post subject:
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