In the West, daughters (if not always mothers) study and have jobs.
On the surface, the patriarchal model has gone... or has it, somehow, survived?

I have not yet read this novel so I can't comment about Afghanistan, but my fiance and I were just talking about this last night in relation to the US. He was watching G.I. Jane and mentioned to me that in the Persian Gulf war only 5% of the military was female and none of them actually saw combat. He doesn't think the military will ever see a female General and I tend to agree - at least in my lifetime.

I think the patriarchal society still exists under the surface. People here still see women as "weaker" then men. If one parent stays home with the kids it is still usually the mother while the father is the "breadwinner". In my house as a child, what my dad said was law LOL. I think we have definitely made progress but it is hard to break out of the male dominated society.

I agree. I wasn't thinking of the military but in view of all the revelations about the fate of women soldiers in Iraq, it's just as well not more are sent.

" Sanchez's attitude was: "The women asked to be here, so now let them take what comes with the territory," Karpinski quoted him as saying. (see link below).

I don't know whether those rapes are still taking place-- I still find it all hard to believe-- but then after reading even a few chapters from
The Lucifer Effect I'm almost ready to believe anything.


http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/57/17327



France has only few troops in combat overseas. You have to volunteer, and they don't take female volunteers. I thought it was to protect them from the enemy.

Actually, there have been multiple female generals, starting with

As another example, Janis Karpinski, who was in charge of Iraqi military prisons, was a general before being demoted over the Abu Ghraib scandal.

Because the Iraq war has no front lines and more women are in the military, it's increasingly common for female US soldiers to get involved in combat. As a result, 93 woman soldiers have died in Iraq.

Interesting info Julian.

I think in a situation like Iraq the death of a female soldier is as shocking as that of a male colleague, neither more nor less.
I hardly know anything about women in combat, I suppose if they got the same training and are as capable fighters as males and the army needs every soldier they've got it may be difficult to argue against it.



But the death (and previous torment) of the female soldiers due to dehydration in the link I gave above is ... I can't think of a word, separate facilities for men and women is so basic.

[quote="JulianTheApostate]

Actually, there have been multiple female generals, starting with


Well, I am going to have to tell my fiance he was WRONG and that's the last time I listen to him!

Thanks for the info Julian. Women are definitely making headway and I'm sure it must have been difficult for them trying to break into the military.

Though women still have problems to contend with.

Good grief!

My father thought that too - that what he said was law - heh! heh!

He was a good man though, and a bit wiser about the world than my mother and us kids. I've seen that proven many times in my life. Just about everything he told me to stay away from has turned out to B. A. D.

------------------------

About men . . . let's give 'em a break, eh? They don't necessarily invent these laws - a lot of female oppression was held up by women themselves.

I don't know how old you folks are here, but I wanna' tell you that at 64 (I applied for my pension the other day!), there were a few things about the 40's, 50's, 60's - yes . . . and 60's, that sucked royally.

Don't know how it was in America, France, England, but the only place we could wear pants was in the factories.

Girls could not wear pants to school even on the coldest days. Nor could we wear pants to the office.

In 1970, I was working at National Trust (typing up lists of bonds). Pant suits were just coming into style.

I had one and it looked pretty good; it wasn't provocative, dirty looking, hippie looking - it looked pretty slick - like I had my itshay together.

The men in our office had a board meeting and the topic of that meeting was about whether to allow the women in the office to wear pant suits to work.

My boss - his name was Peter - thought it was a ridiculous thing to have a meeting about. He didn't see why we shouldn't wear them.

Now, this is what I mean about women keeping women oppressed . . . an older woman in our department actually batted her false eyelashes and announced that she didn't think it was proper.

For heavens' sake!

I stood up at my desk and addressed the whole darn steno pool - I said 'look - if every single one of us came into work tomorrow wearing a pant suit, what do you think they're gonna' do? Fire everybody!'

Of course, the meeting voted that we could wear them.

But this is funny . . . there were two typical little old men who worked side by side in the next department - these guys were like something you'd on a Laugh-In skit.

After we'd been wearing the pant suits for about a week, one of the old guys piped up to say 'I miss the mini skirts!'

..............

Yes, we were oppressed and women still are oppressed in many ways. Women still dictate to other women about what they should think, and when they should think it - just look at the advertising - you're not allowed to get old, you've still got to have an immaculate kitchen, you're still depicted as the perfect mother feeding the children.

We were never allowed to be just who we wanted to be - unless we just went ahead and did it.

Men are also oppressed, in a way - everybody so conscious of rape, sexual harrassment - a guy can't even compliment a woman these days - yet some of these young airheaded women walk around in a state of undress and are absolutely furious if a guy so much as breathes on their neck.

We are still an oppressed society of people - not in such cruel ways as the middle east and other places in the world - but in different ways.

WildCityWoman wrote


My feelings is that men probably invented the dreadful laws, and made quite sure they only applied to the opposite sex (such as wearing the veil).
However, I agree with you that women were responsible insofar as they made sure the laws were kept firmy in place for the next generation of women -- elder women joining men to control younger women, or also as a kind of vengeange, as in "I suffered as a young woman, so you'll sufer too, and you will also show me respect and obedience as your mother-in-law."

Yes, somethin' like that, I guess.

Well, I've been enjoying myself here at Book Talk today - we've got that winter snowstorm here in Toronto.

It's been a good way to spend the afternoon.

I believe that although western society's women have been given more options and freedoms in life, the patriarchal model still exists and always will. We may not be forced to wear burqas or marry 40 year olds when we are teenagers, but I feel for the most part it is frowned upon if: A woman is not married if she is living with a man, the woman "wears the pants", or chooses to be single willingly and pursue a career and not date. That is obviously not true in all cases, but the pressures to marry, be a good wife and mother as the cornerstones of womanhood still remain. I'm going to law school in a few years, but my parents both expect me to also marry and be a wife as well as a career woman. It's a lovely thought, but I wonder if it's at all possible. In short, I believe patriarchal society is always going to be the way society forms its values, expectations, and social scripts because it is easier to follow tradition and custom rather than to expand the definition of womanhood.