Ophelia's Journal.

Penelope · Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:49 am Post subject:

Your comments about the problems with second and third generation, North Africa immigrants struck me as pertinent - vis a vis - superstition, and tradition.

There is an old Lancashire saying from the area where my OH and myself grew up - Clogs to Clogs in three generations....

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Discrimination at work.

Until the 1990's I had sometimes heard people grumbling about other groups of people who lived in their neighbourhood, but I had never witnessed anything myself and I didn't know whether said problems were serious.

Then, we began to see interviews of young men (I wonder if women are not yet another enquiry) , the grandsons of immigrants from the Maghreb who had diplomas, looked every inch the type of person a company would want to hire, and were not getting jobs.
Unemployment has ben high in France since I was a teenager, and immigrants are only one of the groups who have problems, but the explanations they gave, and which have been repeated so many times since,was that the discrimination was based on their names.
When the denunciations began, things had probably been like this for a long time but those young men spelt it out in the open: answering a job offer , they had sent answers to the companies, with every time a version in which the candidate called himself Cédric Lepage, and one with their real name, say Mohammed Zaki.
As they had the right qualifications, some of the French name letters got answers with offers of interviews.
The the Zaki letters never got an answer, and much less an interview.

Another element is that, if they managed to get an interview (perhaps under a false name?) they sometimes got a job-- so not a 100% clearcut situation.

Anyway, as the stories enfolded over the years, we learnt that in the computer systems of some companies ( I have no idea which or how many) the classified files that were cleverly hidden listed candidates (and company employees?) with the following headings: BBR (meaning Bleu, Blanc, Rouge: French, meaning white)
and "N- BBR", non-white, and they answered only the BBR candidates.

This was the first shock wave: How could this be happening?

Were we the racists we had often been accused of being, were we more intolerant and meaner than other people?
Was the behaviour of those companies extreme, or did it reflect the mentality of the average man in France?

If some companies had taken those sorts of habits, the problem was not going to be easy to fix.
In a context of unemployment, and a lot of other people are not getting jobs, it's not easy to prove that the discrimination starts with race.
In the cases of the "BBR" companies, they can be sued if you can give the police enough elements to make them access the files.

Any sorting people into even such categories that may be accepted elsewhere, such as "white " or "black", is unconstitutional (I'll need to return to this).

But in the cases of the thousands of letters that are just thrown away, there is nothing you can do.

About employers: they behave like this because they can (unemployment) and because
they can get away with it. The " BBR" letters are old hat now, the police* knows about it, so they now use little circles or triangles for example.
The following sites (in French) will show you.
(* Rather, l'Inspection du Travail-- my dictionary's translation is unhelpful here, there must be a government agency with a different name in different countries).

Site 2 also shows that the one company may just be part of a system: they have big clients who specifically don't want to employ descendants of immigrants, and the big client will claim that the only reason is that his customers (your average Mr and Mrs Dupont) don't want to deal with them.

Sadly, sites on the inernet on this theme seem to run in the hundreds or perhaps thousands. I've only read a few, and that's how much I can take for the moment.

Here is another example with a big company, l'Oreal.
Over the years, several associations like SOS-Racisme have been created or strengthened, and they are the ones who sue companies in such cases.http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/societe/20070514.OBS71 52/liste_reactions00e5.html?l=0

http://saintgraaljob.blog.pacajob.com/index.php/post/2007/05/15/DISCRI MINATION-A-LEMBAUCHEET-OUI-MALHEUREUSEMENT

Penelope · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:27 am Post subject:

How heartrending -

On our news our Police are often accused of 'targetting' coloured and Asian youths. In Liverpool and Manchester - Asian young men say they are twice as likely to be pulled up in their cars and questioned, as are white young men.

Our police do have black and Asian recruits - but their numbers are few.

I know their are African Drugs Gangs and Asian - but which came first - the feelings of anger at not being allowed to pursue their careers fairly, (especially if they are extremely bright) - or the unlawfulness?

However, in the UK - we still have a class system - although it is not acknowledged. One of the questions for accepting a child into a public school is, 'Does the father have a tattoo?'. I believe this type of question also exists if a young person wants to join the 'officer' section of the armed services also.

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:40 am Post subject:

I'll be writing about the police later, but what you write about tattoes is a surprise.

Many years ago I heard someone mention that if you were a man looking for a (manual) job it was wise to wear a long-sleeved shirt for your interview if you had a tatto as the sight of it would probably mean not getting the job.
It didn't worry me much, but the idea of asking about the father's tattoes is a big step further.

By Public school, do you mean "Public" as in Eton Penelope?

A colleague of mine from Northern Ireland told me (this was the 1980's) about how they made their lists in those days.
You could not find out who was Catholic and who was Protestant by looking at people's faces and names, so the question that was asked was: "Which School did you go to?"
Invariably, the Catholics had gone to St Leonard's School, and the Protestants had been to Londonderry East High School (I've just made up the names).

Penelope · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject:

Yes - Ophelia by Public Schools I mean fee-paying schools.

We still have two football teams in this town - Northwich Victoria (Protestant) and Witton Albion (Catholic). Although I don't think people realise that now. When I worked for a few years at our local Salvation Army - a lot of the older men used to tease me because my son played for Witton Albion under seventeens team. Laughing

Well also - the Scottish Glasgow football teams are Celtic (Catholic) and Glasgow Rangers (Protestant). And I don't think that fact has been quite forgotten. Aren't we a sad lot!!! Rolling Eyes

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject:

Penelope wrote:

Penelope · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject:

As far as I know - there are a panel of judges - A Committee - when one applies for entrance to a public school. (There are fee-paying schools everywhere in England)

One of the questions which the panel considered was about whether the father had tattoos. Also if one applied for admission into a military school.

Some of these fee-paying schools - seem to be the schools for the incredibly dim....but rich........

The above seems to be the main motivating force here....the class/wealth..

Well - when we stopped being pushed about by 'religion' 'corrupt religion' that is, The people threw out the baby with the bathwater. We are an irreligious country. But I think that the people who have given up on religion are the ones who need 'true religion' most.

I will get back to you shortly....my Ophelia.....if you want me to....at the moment I must go and serve up dinner... Smile

I put a large shoulder of lamb in the oven and a rice pudding.....then we went for a walk along the canal - Trent and Mersey.... Smile

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject:

Penelope · Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject:

They enrol the childrens' names for Eton as soon as they are born - they have the most chance of getting in if their father, or other members of their family went there......it is nothing to do with money...and not much to do with brains.....they are taught to be our leaders.

There is a college in Lancashire called Stoneyhurst - they go there to learn to be catholic priests.

Sandhurst is where they learn to be soldiers (well, officers). Prince Charles went there and I think Prince William.

I would not like to have to make that choice....some of my friends send their children to public schools around here....and although I don't really believe in private education........as things are at present in our schools, I don't blame those of my friends who choose to compromise.

The school I know of as famous in France is the Sorbonne.

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:55 am Post subject:

The Sorbonne is a university, it's actually about 4 universities now, as in Université de Paris-Sorbonne IV.
I went to the Sorbonne in my third year at College. It was OK, I'm not sure if it was better than my local university in Tours; my colleagues here studied in Tours and were pleased with this.

The Sorbonne is famous because it was the first university to be created in the Middle Ages-- I guess, classes in Latin?
Also many prestigious writers taught at the Sorbonne.

The really prestigious schools in France are the "Grandes Ecoles", which are state schools; I'll need to return to this.

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject:

In the 1990's, I realized I needed to know more about immigration in France.
Those were pre-internet days as far as I was concerned, and I got nowhere.
I was living in Saint Avold, a quiet little town, and my school had no problems. Then I moved to Tours, a middle-sized town, but again quiet, and a no-problem school. It never seemed urgent to get results on my enquiry, and the years went by.

Then came the three weeks of civil unrest in a number of poor suburbs ("banlieues") from October 27th, 2005 to November 17th.

First as I start writing there is still a controversy about what word to use for them .

President Chirac, on a trip to the US I think, made a point of saying in an answer to journalists' questions that this was not a riot, not to be compared with what had happened in Los Angeles in 1992 for example, and, in typical French spirit and with usual from-the-heart-political correctness, said these were " des évènements" (events).

So, évènements they were called on national TV channels when the country watched as the same pattern unfolded, night after night (nothing, or very litlle, ever happened during day time-- it was winter, so action started between 6 and 7 pm ) in different suburbs of the country.

"Riots" seemed too strong a term, and indeed no one was killed or seriously injured among either the protesters or the police-- there was, however, one tragic victim of the rioters' actions.*

" Events" was a ridiculous euphemism.
Now, the documents I read often refer to what happened as "émeutes" (riots). Wikepedia uses the terms "violences urbaines " and "civil unrest" in English.

For three weeks, the rioters burnt cars and sometimes public buildings, occasionally a few schools.

Although the burning cars made for spectacular photos and video pictures on the news, there was never any sense that this was a civil war and the country was about to be engulfed.
We seem to have developed a tradition of car burning in the last 20 years, so this was part of a pattern we knew about.

The patterns were familiar, but things had just become much worse, and the usual -- social, economic-- reasons were given.

On November 17th, Nicolas Sarkozy, then Minister of the Interior, announced that they had the situation under control.
The Minister himself had been responsible for some of the violence by calling the rioters "racaille" (rabble, rifraff).
It had been clear for a few years that "Sarko" had ambitions and would be a candidate for the succession of Jacques Chirac.
His supporters think he saved the day, and his detractors think he is responsible for everything.

As things were happening elements that stood out were:

- the work done by firemen, which prevented the fires from spreading, although they and their equipment were often attacked, as they too were seen as representatives of oppression.
- the professionalism of the police, which I think prevented escalation.
- the fact that the government resisted those who wanted to call in the Army, and insisted that this was a matter for the police; this was wise.

We hesitated between " How has it come to this?" and "I knew something like this would happen".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France

Ophelia

My second attempt at understanding (before and just after 2005) confirmed the findings of the first attempt.
This time I, like many other people in France, was connected to the web, and amazon had also had a branch in France for several years, which changed a great many things.

This is going to be at this stage mainly a chronicling of how this went nowhere, and why I think so little knowledge is available, and the many things I have learnt from the wall of silence.

I tried two basic ideas:

First I tried to read books on the subject, and my first unpleasant surprise was how very little seemed to have been published.

The few books that had been published by 2005 were at least 10 years old, and which is more, contained almost nothing that could help me.
I thought perhaps, because the subject was so sensitive, they thought they should write in such a boring way, and say nothing that had not already been said on the evening news.
After a few books, this was becoming, as well as fruitless, an expensive enquiry.

I was grumbling all along, because this also confirmed another fact of life: there is little pressure on French academics to publish. They're supposed to publish, but I wonder if it's not left up to them to do so or not.

In the past, whenever I had wanted to look up something, I looked it up at amazon.com and many academics in the States would have published something about it, it was just a matter for me to decide which book(s) I wanted to order.
When I vented my frustration by asking the people around me why French academics would not publish, I sometimes got the standard answer-- all good academics left many years ago and are now working in the States.
Not having enough funding for research is one of the facts of life in Europe-- the amount of money spent on research in countries like France or the UK is absurdly low, and the brain drain from Europe is not a myth.

I had the opportunity to see the results in California in 1991 because I knew a few people who were doing medical research: the professor was Italian, the researchers were from many different countries in the EU, and there was one person from India, and one from the States (also known as the "token American" in the group).

However, there is no reason to suspect that research grants would include studying current affairs in France.

Ophelia · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject:

I decided to try some leading sociologists, although this hadn't been the field I was attracted to at first.

I tried to read what something by Pierre Bourdieu, a leading sociologist in France, with an interesting life -- lived a few years in Algeria and later wrote about people from Algeria living in France, but only about them.
(He died in 2002.)

This is the one book which hasn't annoyed me so far. I read about 50 pages, it consists in in extenso transcripts of thousands of hours of interviews of mostly low-income people who speak about their lives, about living in mixed neighbourhoods and what they have to say about neighbours of different races, their worries about the future, etc...
I leant from it, and I'm sure that if I could muster the energy to read all 1440 pages of it, in small print, there would be valuable insights, but I'm not quite prepared to do that. The main problem was that I as was reading about those pages and pages of everyday worries I was feeling more and more depressed.
The title of the book (since Les Misérables had already been taken by Victor Hugo) is: La misère du monde, not as in "Worlddwide deprivation", it's just France, but there is a saying about "toute la misère du monde".

Ophelia · Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject:

There was no chance of getting depressed with the last book I tried, a few months ago, but I went back to "annoyed", then "very annoyed" mode.
This was "Les féministes et le garçon arabe" (the feminists and the Arab boy), by academics Nacira Guenif-Soualamas and Eric Macé.

Here I had a promising title and a book cover with a catchy cartoon.

I was mostly annoyed by the style: long, impossibly intricate sentences, complicated vocabulary that seemed to be getting nowhere, the sort that is used by those particular professors I always tried to run away from.

It had only 90 pages, but I only made it to 10. In those 10 pages they introduced the idea that feminists were lesbians. I am open to new ideas, but it turned out that after 10 pages I still didn't know whether this was the thesis of the book, or somebody's idea that the authors were going to rebut.

At this stage it would have been a great satisfaction to hurl the book out of the window; on the plus side, it only cost 7 euros and amazon.fr does not charge to send you a book within France.

When I thought about it later, I think by reading this book I was taken straight into the middle of somebody else's quarrel-- there was a split within the Feminist movement in France a few years ago... well at this stage I'm not willing to find out.

All this is unfortunate for me: Nacira Guenif Souilamas is the daughter of immigrants, a sociologist and anthropologist who teaches at Paris XIII University, has written a thesis on immigration in France and has written many other books on this topic, so she should have been an ideal writer for this enquiry. Unfortunately the style she uses is typical of a certain kind of French intellectual, and I'm allergic to both the style and the writers. Razz

Still, I'll have to try something else by her before I give up.

Ophelia · Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:07 am Post subject:

My second idea for information about immigration was that, after all, I had been living in this country for more than 45 years, surely I could talk to a few people.
I found people like my colleagues from the English department, with whom I'd been discussing current events in the US or South Africa on and on for years, suddenly clammed up. I was told that these were issues you discussed -- if at all-- only with your family, or your bosom friends.

On one occasion somebody told me that she did't speak about immigration OUT OF CONVICTION. I understood this


	FORUMS	ABOUT	BOOKS	VIDEOS	ADVERTISE	LINKS	BLOGS	DONATE	CHAT	CONTACT