Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:11 pm

<< Week of August 25, 2016 >>
Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday
25 Day Month

26 Day Month

27 Day Month

28 Day Month

29 Day Month

30 Day Month

31 Day Month





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 55 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Opening comments on Paradise Lost 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Commander

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2898
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 457
Thanked: 366 times in 277 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post Opening comments on Paradise Lost
First, here is a link to an electronic copy of Paradise Lost.

Paradise Lost with notes

And second, the poem is written in 12 "books"; a discussion thread will be set up for each one. As a way to approach this imposing poem, we thought each thread would begin with a summary of the "book" to be discussed. If anyone has any ideas that would make this forum better or more conducive to discussing the poem, please, chime in!

Saffron
p.s. Tag, DWill, your it!



Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:57 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Commander

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2898
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 457
Thanked: 366 times in 277 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post 
I found a wonderful reading of the first part of Paradise Lost by Milton Read by Ian Richardson on YouTube.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbOAz2-0BBM&feature=related[/youtube]



Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:11 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Brilliant

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 674
Thanks: 17
Thanked: 20 times in 15 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Canada (ca)

Post 
Good luck to all, you will need it. I am apt to watch but want of contribution on this one. Have you ever done any Shakespeare yet on this forum?

:book:



Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:39 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Online
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15182
Location: Florida
Thanks: 2927
Thanked: 1143 times in 906 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 6

Post 
No Shakespeare yet.



Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:52 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Brilliant

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 674
Thanks: 17
Thanked: 20 times in 15 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Canada (ca)

Post 
Any plays at all?

:book:



Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:16 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Commander

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2898
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 457
Thanked: 366 times in 277 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Grim wrote:
Any plays at all?

:book:


Funny you should ask. Just the other day DWill mentioned to me about trying to open a discussion about a work of drama; I even emailed Chris about it. Let's see how Paradise Lost goes and then maybe give a play a try. Any suggestions on what we might have a crack at?


_________________
In love we are made visible
As in a magic bath
are unpeeled
to the sharp pit
so long concealed
--May Swenson


Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:55 am
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5526
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 1380
Thanked: 1386 times in 1083 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post 
I thought the poem could be made more interesting if people offered their own ideas and resources they've found related to PL. For example, my daughter, who is a great fantasy genre reader, says that Phillip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" reworks PL themes and has a band of rebel angels. There should be a graphic novel of PL.

I was interested in the reception given PL on publication. I found that the poem wasn't a good seller until 1788, 14 years after the publication of the complete poem in 1774. What did the trick was illustrations, which PL seems so suited for. I wonder what Milton, long dead, would have thought of that! I imagine he would have disdained such a tactic (not to mention having no idea of the quality of the pictures!). Here is the background on publication, which I think you might find interesting.

http://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/darknessvi ... ation.html


_________________
No, it is impossible; it is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence--that which makes its truth, its meaning--its subtle penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live as we dream--alone.

Joseph Conrad, The Heart of Darkness


Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:18 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Commander

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2898
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 457
Thanked: 366 times in 277 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post 
DWill wrote:
I thought the poem could be made more interesting if people offered their own ideas and resources they've found related to PL. For example, my daughter, who is a great fantasy genre reader, says that Phillip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" reworks PL themes and has a band of rebel angels. There should be a graphic novel of PL.


No graphic novel, as of yet. It does seem that it would lend itself well to that format. As I was looking, I came across a blog that the person said he was taking a class on Milton and they read, round-robin, the entire poem; it took 9 1/2 hours!

Here is a list I found on Wikipedia of literary connections to PL (DWill, I bet your daughter has read the Sandman series):

In literature

* Much of the mystic poetry of William Blake is a direct response to or rewriting of Paradise Lost. Blake emphasized the rebellious, satanic elements of the epic; the repressive character Urizen in the Four Zoas is a tyrannical version of Milton's God. In addition to his famous quip in The Marriage of Heaven and Hell about Milton belonging to the devil's party, Blake wrote Milton: a Poem which has Milton, like Satan, rejecting a life in Heaven.

* Paradise Lost influenced Mary Shelley when she wrote her novel Frankenstein, in the 1810s; she included a quotation from book X on the title page, and it is one of three books Dr. Frankenstein's monster finds which influences his psychological growth.

* In his controversial novel, The Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie adapts major motifs and plot elements from Paradise Lost, such as a "fall" and subsequent transformation.

* The epic was also one of the prime inspirations for Philip Pullman's trilogy of novels His Dark Materials (itself a quotation from Book II of Paradise Lost). In Pullman's introduction, he adapts Blake's line to quip that he himself "is of the Devil's party and does know it."

* Libba Bray uses a quote from Paradise Lost to name the second book of her trilogy, Rebel Angels quoting from it "To reign is worth ambition though in Hell: Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heav'n."

* In his epic Sandman comics/graphic novels series, Neil Gaiman uses Lucifer as a a character, most notably in the Season of Mists arc/collection, and makes reference to the poem, even having Lucifer openly quote Milton.

* In the 20th anniversery collection of Garfield comics, "Garfield: 20 Years and still Kicking", Jim Davis mentioned that Odie Never had to read "Paradise Lost"


_________________
In love we are made visible
As in a magic bath
are unpeeled
to the sharp pit
so long concealed
--May Swenson


Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:32 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Brilliant

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 674
Thanks: 17
Thanked: 20 times in 15 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Canada (ca)

Post 
Well my top three playwright chocies would undoubtably be:

Aurther Miller

George Bernard Shaw

William Shakespeare

I have also read some of the play of Oscar Wilde but they were less engaging than the works of Shaw or Miller. I've been planning on reading more of Henrik Johan Ibsen specifically An Enemy of the People and Samuel Beckett specifically Waiting for Gadot.

What are you interested in, in terms of plays?

:book:



Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:08 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 825
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Opening comments on Paradise Lost
Saffron wrote:
First, here is a link to an electronic copy of Paradise Lost.

Paradise Lost with notes

And second, the poem is written in 12 "books"; . . .


SparkNotes for Paradise Lost is at
http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/paradi ... ntext.html

SparkNotes says:
"Milton continued to dictate Paradise Lost for several years, finishing in 1667 when it was first published in ten books. Milton soon returned to revise his epic, redividing it into twelve books (as the classical epics were divided), and publishing it in its authoritative second edition form in 1671."

The Gutenberg version is apparently the original 10-book version. Saffron's Dartmouth version has the 12 books and should be our standard.

Why did Milton rewrite Paradise Lost? I suspect for reasons of irenic Hermeticism.

10-book version: to accord with the 10 commandments.
12-book version: to accord with the zodiac.

Milton, I am surprised to learn, was a radically liberal guy. He came to believe in full freedom of conscience without institutional religion. I had no idea.

Tom



Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:37 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Book Commander

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2898
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 457
Thanked: 366 times in 277 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Tom
Quote:
Why did Milton rewrite Paradise Lost? I suspect for reasons of irenic Hermeticism.


I was actually going to post the very question. Now, Tom, you just need to define irenic Hermeticism for me.


_________________
In love we are made visible
As in a magic bath
are unpeeled
to the sharp pit
so long concealed
--May Swenson


Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:38 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 825
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post 
Saffron wrote:
Tom
Quote:
Why did Milton rewrite Paradise Lost? I suspect for reasons of irenic Hermeticism.


I was actually going to post the very question. Now, Tom, you just need to define irenic Hermeticism for me.


Irenic Hermeticism was the peace movement of the 1600's inspired by the mysticism of the The Corpus Hermeticum. A familiar example of such peace literature is Religio Medici. Basically, "The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life." If the important thing is the quality of the inner life, why kill each other over doctrinal differences? Dee and Bruno were advocates.



Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:00 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
pets endangered by possible book avalanche

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4967
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 1614
Thanked: 1612 times in 1219 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
Thanks for selecting Paradise Lost. I hope to contribute. At the moment, I am preparing some comments on Niebuhr's Faith and History. Seeing how Niebuhr returns to central ideas from Milton, echoed by Bacevich in The Limits of Power, it is intriguing how Milton's eschatology of Fall and Redemption recurs as the core mythic motif for western civilization. Niebuhr picks this cosmology up in his critique of the modern fetish of control. Milton of course was a puritan, a close ally of Oliver Cromwell and the iconoclasts. As such, his great cosmology of Paradise Lost provides a mythic narrative storyline for themes which were dear to the hearts of the American pilgrims on the Mayflower. I firmly believe that a nation retains at its core the ideas which gave impetus to its foundation. Therefore the puritan ideas of holiness and providence have a hold on the American psyche, and a depth of emotional rejection by those at the receiving end of puritanical hypocrisy. Both sides of this American identity can be hard for outsiders and insiders to see. I wonder if we can find in Milton some clue to the fervour and nature of American religiosity? RT



Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:27 pm
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Likes the book better than the movie


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 825
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post 
Robert Tulip wrote:
Milton of course was a puritan, a close ally of Oliver Cromwell and the iconoclasts.


Robert, Milton outgrew the legalism of the Puritans, Cromwell, and the iconoclasts.



Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:38 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
pets endangered by possible book avalanche

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4967
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 1614
Thanked: 1612 times in 1219 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
Thomas Hood wrote:
Irenic Hermeticism was the peace movement of the 1600's inspired by the mysticism of the The Corpus Hermeticum. A familiar example of such peace literature is Religio Medici. Basically, "The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life." If the important thing is the quality of the inner life, why kill each other over doctrinal differences? Dee and Bruno were advocates.
Tom, you are such an esotericist! Good on you. Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake in Rome for his belief that the one true religion came from Egypt. John Dee was the astrologer to Queen Elizabeth and a Christian Platonist. Regarding irenic hermeticism, Isaac Newton was possibly the exemplar, with his translation of the Emerald Tablets of Thoth.



Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:41 pm
Profile Email WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 55 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:



Site Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

Featured Books

Books by New Authors


*

FACTS is a select group of active BookTalk.org members passionate about promoting Freethought, Atheism, Critical Thinking and Science.

Apply to join FACTS
See who else is in FACTS







BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.



Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2016. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank