Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3720 Images: 3 Location: California Highscores:1 Thanks: 349 Thanked: 748 times in 563 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: Obama: Not even close to the worst president ever.
Quote:
That means that it is his responsibility to fight against it. The various shades of we're doing what we can ring hollow.
Give me your solution to the current Right wing policy where each and every single one of them vote unanimously for deregulation and cutting taxes. These two things are above and beyond all other factors the reason there is a wealth inequality. Obama had to pull in all his favors just to pass health care. Perhaps it was a mistake, and he should have used those favors to fight for increased regulation and taxation on the rich. On the other hand, health care reform will save a lot of federal money, and is the first large step to keeping our country from bankruptcy. Additionally, policy drift is worse than it has ever been with the supermajority requirement of 60 votes. Meaning even a minority of Republicans can stop a good bill in it's tracks.
Quote:
They're heading for the same dance the Republicans are going to.
During the time Democrats didn't appeal to corporate interests, in the 70s and 80s, the Republicans raised nearly five times as much campaign money. As Rahm Emmanuel puts it, money is the number one most important factor in a campaign. Without appealing to corporate interests, the Democrats had no chance. Yes, they have tilted to the right along with Republicans, but not nearly as far. Too far, yes, but not as far. I'm not saying Democrats are innocent, I'm saying your incorrectly placing the blame on Obama when it is the current structure of our government and the sensitivity to campaign financing that is the issue.
Quote:
And you are criticizing them for this?
Deregulation, eliminating minimum wage, doing away with labor unions, and undoing progressive income tax? Yes, I am criticizing them whole-heartedly, because these stances are ruining our country. These things are the largest problem in our country currently. Fueling this problem is the fact that most Americans can't see just how terrible these stances are. I'd be happy to discuss them all if you wish. This seems to be our core disagreement.
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 304 Location: Texas Highscores:2 Thanks: 28 Thanked: 50 times in 40 posts
Gender:
Re: Obama: Not even close to the worst president ever.
Interbane wrote:
Give me your solution to the current Right wing policy where each and every single one of them vote unanimously for deregulation and cutting taxes.
OK, that's a question that deserves an answer -
Stop being reasonable, put your fingers in your ears, shout NO, NO, NO
Quote:
Obama had to pull in all his favors just to pass health care. Perhaps it was a mistake, and he should have used those favors to fight for increased regulation and taxation on the rich. On the other hand, health care reform will save a lot of federal money, and is the first large step to keeping our country from bankruptcy.
Something like health care insurance can't cost any money... while paying for the opportunity to bomb the stuffing out of people far away from us is something Obama and the Democrats are just fine with - as long as it's not a "stupid war." The whole saving money side-issue is an apology that the Democrats would never consider was needed to go invade some country. He "pull[ed] in all his favors just to pass health care" that funnels in its applicants to corporations. Obama didn't even involve himself in the process in any meaningful way until the only option remaining was further corporate control. I suppose this can be tossed off as being another mistake but I think he's sharper than that. The difference between the two parties is not what they're going to do but when they're going to do it and how upfront they'll be about it.
Quote:
Additionally, policy drift is worse than it has ever been with the supermajority requirement of 60 votes. Meaning even a minority of Republicans can stop a good bill in it's tracks.
Yes, because unlike Democrats Republicans are not held accountable to the people who vote them into office. Once again, here is a form of the oh we're so helpless, if only it wasn't for those mean ol' Republicans we'd be doing great things chant that's become so popular. It's more that the Democrat party[sic] is a closet Republican outfit than that they're even weak-willed champions of progressive ideals who found themselves shackled by a minority of politicians who operated outside the public will. It's that they don't fight. My speculation is that the primary reason for this is that they don't believe "change" is really a good thing.
Quote:
As Rahm Emmanuel puts it, money is the number one most important factor in a campaign. Without appealing to corporate interests, the Democrats had no chance.
And yet Obama raised a huge amount of cash from individuals. Anyway, Rahm Emmanuel illustrates why it's so nice to be a human being - the ability to rationalize everything one does. If corporations are really the problem than when you have a majority in congress change the rules so that corporations can contribute no money to politicians. Oh, you need 60 v0tes? Well how did that come into effect with the Democrats opposing it every step of the way? The party of excuses.
Quote:
Deregulation, eliminating minimum wage, doing away with labor unions, and undoing progressive income tax? Yes, I am criticizing them whole-heartedly, because these stances are ruining our country. These things are the largest problem in our country currently. Fueling this problem is the fact that most Americans can't see just how terrible these stances are. I'd be happy to discuss them all if you wish. This seems to be our core disagreement.
Have you told the Democrats that these are bad things? My view is that the democrats function as a safety-relief valve for the system that kicks in when the Republicans go absolutely crazy. So for being less crazy than the Republicans - fine, hooray. Still, it's the system that the Democrats defend every bit as much as do the Republicans that I see as being the problem. They're all socialists, fascists, corporatists and every other rotten label... George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, and the like are not exceptions to the system but merely focal points.
Our guy is less crazy than Sarah Palin, vote for him. NO, NO, NO. I'd rather take my medicine now.
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3720 Images: 3 Location: California Highscores:1 Thanks: 349 Thanked: 748 times in 563 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: Obama: Not even close to the worst president ever.
I'm not sure what any of your responses mean, they're all too couched in sarcasm. It seems like you agree that Republicans are the problem, and Democrats allow them to cause trouble. If you mean something else, give a straight answer.
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 304 Location: Texas Highscores:2 Thanks: 28 Thanked: 50 times in 40 posts
Gender:
Re: Obama: Not even close to the worst president ever.
Interbane wrote:
I'm not sure what any of your responses mean, they're all too couched in sarcasm. It seems like you agree that Republicans are the problem, and Democrats allow them to cause trouble. If you mean something else, give a straight answer.
OK. Here it is with no sarcasm: The Republicans are not the problem. The problem is the system. The solution presented is to refuse participation. The solution is to make it so the Democratic party is unable to continue playing for 51% and thus aiming for its (I believe, mythical) center of the electorate - which is continually drifting rightward. You say my responses here are filled with too much sarcasm, and maybe they are - - but when it's an entirely cynical process we're discussing, and I believe it is, I believe there is some justification for it.
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3720 Images: 3 Location: California Highscores:1 Thanks: 349 Thanked: 748 times in 563 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: Obama: Not even close to the worst president ever.
I don't believe we are justified in being cynical while discussing this, especially if there is cynicism in the topic. We should err toward the opposite extreme if we err at all.
I will agree with you that the system is the problem. At least, part of the problem. To point at a single cause and label it the culprit is almost a criminal oversimplification. For example, we could also blame corporations and their aggressive lobbying that started in the 70's. Or we could blame the disinterest of the American voter, who are collectively voting officials into office who have agendas that continue pushing rightward. Or we could blame the greenback, since it is necessary to win a campaign and carves canyons into the political landscape between the high ground of corporate interests and the basins of regulatory policy. Or we could blame media outlets such as Fox news for using smoke and mirrors against the American public, obscuring the truth so that it's no longer about the truth. Instead it's a team sport, where you back your players even if they are irrational.
I would say all of these are more to blame than Obama. I don't want to seem like I'm defending him, but I think it's a tragedy that the spotlight isn't on the right target. We can't fix the problem until we locate precisely where that problem is. Your original post was pointing at Obama. All I'm saying is, look beyond him, there are many more influential causes for our current dilemma than the president.
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 304 Location: Texas Highscores:2 Thanks: 28 Thanked: 50 times in 40 posts
Gender:
Re: Obama: Not even close to the worst president ever.
Interbane wrote:
I don't believe we are justified in being cynical while discussing this, especially if there is cynicism in the topic. We should err toward the opposite extreme if we err at all.
I will agree with you that the system is the problem. At least, part of the problem. To point at a single cause and label it the culprit is almost a criminal oversimplification. For example, we could also blame corporations and their aggressive lobbying that started in the 70's. Or we could blame the disinterest of the American voter, who are collectively voting officials into office who have agendas that continue pushing rightward. Or we could blame the greenback, since it is necessary to win a campaign and carves canyons into the political landscape between the high ground of corporate interests and the basins of regulatory policy. Or we could blame media outlets such as Fox news for using smoke and mirrors against the American public, obscuring the truth so that it's no longer about the truth. Instead it's a team sport, where you back your players even if they are irrationalI would say all of these are more to blame than Obama.
okay then. I gave my solution to the situation when asked. And who wants to be just a complainer? Now will you show me yours? I'm wondering what your proposed solution might be... I'm somehwat of the opinion you don't have one since you later call it a "dilemna" we're in. How is it that you see a positive outcome occurring from where we find ourselves today?
Quote:
I don't want to seem like I'm defending him but I think it's a tragedy that the spotlight isn't on the right target. We can't fix the problem until we locate precisely where that problem is. Your original post was pointing at Obama. All I'm saying is, look beyond him, there are many more influential causes for our current dilemma than the president.
Well "Obama" is mentioned in the header! If my focus has been on him (and I'd argue it hasn't but rather it's been on the people who don't want to seem like they're defending him) then it's due mostly to the itch I have to comment to democrats/liberals/progressives how it is that it's the democratic party, as often as not, that is the organization working to their disadvantage. Given that outlook, and considering that Obama is the top democrat in office... well I think it flows nicely. It's not the wolf but the wolf in sheep's clothing that's most dangerous! FOX is of comically bad intent... pfft! ::twirls mustache:: ...and if there is actually something resembling criminal oversimplification here I say it's the refusal to not take it seriously. You have to include The People because without them you have nothing. But yes, they most certainly do share in the blame! I recall something to this effect being mentioned earlier in the thread actually! ButObama, FOX, corporations, dems and reps [EDIT: the democratic party and the republican party as currently formed that is] collectively form the part of the system that is not needed and that produced George W Bush. Turn your back on it. Things will be better. But I've already said this.
Last edited by Kevin on Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3720 Images: 3 Location: California Highscores:1 Thanks: 349 Thanked: 748 times in 563 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: Obama: Not even close to the worst president ever.
Quote:
The solution presented is to refuse participation.
This is the solution you're referring to? I think the solution is the opposite. We need a grassroots movement based on the truth(not propaganda like the Tea Party). Vote politicians into office who will stand up to lobbyists. Vote for politicians who are to the far left of the spectrum. It should be internet based, similar to the MoveOn organization, and empowered by the same methods Obama used in his campaign. Anyone who even mentions the radical right wing policies that will tear our country further apart should be voted out of office during the next election.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.
Support BookTalk.org
BookTalk.org is being upgraded to a totally new design. This upgrade is expensive. Any support would be VERY helpful! See who supports us.
Make a donation
PEOPLE PAYING FOR OUR UPGRADE:
• afv - $10 May
• LevV - $50 March
• Dexter - $10 March
• supernova38 - $25 March
• Oblivion - $20 March
• jheimlich - $20 February
• Robert Tulip - $50 February
• giselle - $50 January
Children here need worming
regularly, and I think I
need to buy more worming
tablets, so while my friends
sit on the beach, I have to
catch bush taxis up to the… more
The children have a long way
to walk to the nearest primary
school. At the moment they are
in temporary accommodation,
with volunteer teachers. There
is community land available,
a… more
The price of The 12th Disciple
has been updated to $3.99 for
Kindle readers. The book is
still available for free to
borrow for Amazon Prime
members. To be
competitive, and s… more
The 12th Disciple has been
reviewed by two different
people on Amazon. They
purchased the Kindle edition;
one in the US, one in the
UK. One review was
5-stars (US) and the oth… more
I'd like to say I've
been reading Harry Potter
since the day the world renown
series appeared on the
scene. Unfortunately,
the truth is I began reading
Harry Potter… more
Easter teaches many of us the
importance of redemption and
resurrection. Regardless of
what faith people follow, the
story of Jesus Christ has been
told in many languages in many
c… more
Our Book Talk will begin on
Wednesday, May 2nd. I look
forward to hearing about your
learning and classroom
experiences with Number Talks
as it all unfolds...
NONOPPOSITIONAL NONVIOLENCE
“The minute you conquer the
fear of death, at that moment
you are free. I submit to you
that if a man hasnÂ’t
discovered something that he
will die f… more
Yesterday, when I went to feed
Jeni the donkey, I noticed
swarms of bees entering
EbrimaÂ’s house through the
cracks in the door. We both
had a look, but he didnÂ’t
open his door… more
Whether you want to implement
number talks but are unsure of
how to begin or have
experience but want more
guidance in crafting
purposeful problems, this
dynamic multimedia resourc… more
Do you feel entitled? For
years I have listened to and,
in some instances, complained
that some people in America
feel entitled. For years I
have watched as these people
are portra… more
On Fat Tuesday and Ash
Wednesday of 2012, The 12th
Disciple was free to Kindle
users on both days. In all,
about 550 worldwide Kindle
users downloaded a copy of the
book.
‘Sacred Are the Brave’ a
collection of short stories
about the nonviolent
revolutions 1986-1989 is now
available in Kindle. Each of
the nine stories has
characters who are just
… more
The Weekend TrippersÂ’ is the
true story of Rfn Ted Taylor
and his part in the heroic
last stand in Calais May 1940.
The Weekend Trippers is based
on TedÂ’s diaries written at
the… more
Tell your friends when to meet you in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.
If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.
BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.
Tweet This Topic
