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National Health Care. 
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Post Re: Re:
phillies4evr wrote:
JulianTheApostate wrote:
Like the rest of you, I'm a big supporter of universal health care. It's much more humane, and it provides bigger benefits at less cost.

Now I'm discouraged by the political debate. I'm afraid that the Democrats will screw things up yet again and not make it happen.


JULIAN....... I agree with you on the country needing some kind of universal healthcare. The problem with Obama care is that there are too many hands in the pot and because of that there are too many loopholes in the system. It also provides that every citizen in this country, regardless of whether they are unemployed and have been denied unemployment and people who lost their homes and are literally living on the streets, has to be, in the most forceful way, on the Universal health care plan. Right now on paper it may seem that there are bigger benefits at less cost but, ask yourself if you want the government telling you what procedures are covered or not and what doctors you can and cannot go to. And honestly, I know in my case because I am 100% disabled and I don't want ObamaCare telling me what specialists i can see and being privy to my private health records. I just know that Obama care is such a long document that there are way too many loopholes in it.
People are excited about this plan but think about all the money that has been spent for health care in this entire country when the most important thing the president should be working on is finding jobs for so many people who are unemployed and all the wars overseas. Obama care might work with another president who didn't have so much on their plate, but our dear president, has only been in office for close to two years and there are way more important issues than spending all the time and money that Obama and whoever is in his regime again with helping people gain employment and in trying to find ways to help our men/women overseas. Right now, that is where our money should be spent.



You may find this article interesting as background reading. It discusses Canada, but the issues in the piece transfer directly to the health care debate in the US.


http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... t-it-to-be


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Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:19 am
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Post Re: National Health Care.
Looking at the history of the efforts to reform health-care on the insurance side, we see about 60 years of diddling by presidents and Congress. To overcome all the resistance and get something of a bill, of course we would get one that's imperfect. The system of employer-based health insurance for active workers was a historical accident and doesn't make a lot of sense. Protests from the Republican side that this bill isn't the "right" way to reform health-care weren't credible to begin with. If the bill had been defeated, those protesting voices would be silent on health-care reform by now.

The greatest danger to the bill that passed is that the public will conclude that it isn't doing enough to contain insurance costs, and they will support dismantling it. But the main reason that the bill indeed probably will not lower costs is that the issue of price was avoided during negotiations on the legislation. There was little appetite to address the biggest problem with our system, which is that we pay (usually the insurance companies pay) much more per unit of service than do people in other rich nations. We have no way of bringing pressure to bear on providers of medical services and goods, except in the case of Medicare. A single-payer option would have helped to force providers to contain costs. So, ironically, if the public concludes that the reform bill has failed to lower costs, and blames this on socialism, the real reason for the failure will be that the reform law wasn't socialistic enough. The government needs to have the power to force providers to contain costs.

The insurance companies have usually been made out to be the baddies, but they can't do much about what medical providers charge them.

An article on this topic from the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03394.html


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Post Re: National Health Care.
please read and learn the truth from rasmussen polls!!!!!!!

October 25, 2010


A majority of voters continue to favor repeal of the new national health care law, and the number who sees this outcome as likely has reached a new high.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 53% of Likely U.S. voters favor repeal of the health care law, including 43% who Strongly Favor repeal. Forty-two percent (42%) oppose repeal of the bill, with 32% who are Strongly Opposed. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

Since Democrats in Congress passed the law in late March, support for repeal has ranged from a low of 53% to a high of 63%.

But now 46% of voters say it is at least somewhat likely the law will be repealed, up six points from earlier this month and the highest level measured since tracking of the question began in April. Still, that includes just 13% who say it’s Very Likely the law will be repealed.

Forty-five percent (45%) say it is not very likely the law will repealed, showing no change from earlier this month.

(Want a free daily e-mail update? If it's in the news, it's in our polls). Rasmussen Reports updates are also available on Twitter or Facebook.

The survey of 1,000 Likely Voters was conducted on October 22-23, 2010 by Rasmussen Reports. The margin of sampling error is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence. Field work for all Rasmussen Reports surveys is conducted by Pulse Opinion Research, LLC. See methodology.

Forty-three percent (43%) of voters say repeal of the bill would be good for the economy, showing little change over the past two months. Thirty-four percent (34%) say repeal of the law would be bad for the economy, while another 16% say it would have no impact.

Just 26% think repeal of the law will lead to the creation of more jobs, down four points from early October and the lowest level measured since April. Thirty-nine percent (39%) disagree and say repeal of the bill will not lead to increased job creation. However, 36% are not sure.

Sixty-five percent (65%) of Republicans expect the health care law to be repealed, as do 47% of voters not affiliated with either major political party. Only 30% of Democrats believe the law is likely to be repealed.

Overall, 37% say the health care plan passed by Congress in March will be good for the country, the lowest level of confidence found this month. Fifty-three percent (53%) say the law will be bad for the country.

Recent polling shows that only 43% of all Likely Voters say someone who voted for the health care law deserves to be reelected. Fifty percent (50%) oppose their reelection.

Please sign up for the Rasmussen Reports daily e-mail update (it’s free) or follow us on Twitter or Facebook. Let us keep you up to date with the latest public opinion news.

Survey Toplines and Crosstabs and are available to Platinum Members only.
ShareThis

Rasmussen Reports is an electronic media company specializing in the collection, publication and distribution of public opinion polling information. We poll on a variety of topics in the fields of politics, business and lifestyle, updating our site’s content on a news cycle throughout the day, everyday.

Rasmussen Reports Platinum Members get an all-access pass to polling news, analysis and insight not available to the general public.

Scott Rasmussen, president of Rasmussen Reports, has been an independent pollster for more than a decade. To learn more about our methodology, click here.

The survey of 1,000 Likely Voters was conducted on October 22-23, 2010 by Rasmussen Reports. The margin of sampling error is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence. Field work for all Rasmussen Reports surveys is conducted by Pulse Opinion Research, LLC. See methodology.

Survey of 1,000 Likely Voters
October 22-23, 2010

Date


Favor


Oppose

Oct 22-23


53%


42%

Oct 16-17


55%


40%

Oct 8-9


55%


39%

Oct 2-3


50%


44%

Sep 24-25


57%


35%

Sep 18-19


61%


33%

Sep 10-11


53%


38%

Sep 4-5


56%


38%

Aug 27-28


58%


36%

Aug 21-22


56%


40%

Aug 13-14


60%


36%

Aug 7-8


55%


38%

Jul 30-31


59%


38%

Jul 24-25


58%


37%

Jul 16-17


56%


38%

Jul 10-11


53%


42%

Jul 1


60%


36%

Jun 25-26


52%


40%

Jun 19-20


55%


40%

Jun 11-12


58%


36%

Jun 5-6


58%


35%

May 28-29


60%


36%

May 22-23


63%


32%

May 14-15


56%


39%

May 10


56%


37%

Apr 30-May 1


54%


39%

Apr 24-25


58%


38%

Apr 16-17


56%


41%

Apr 10-11


58%


38%

Apr 2-3


54%


42%

Mar 27-28


54%


42%

Mar 23-24


55%


42%
TOP STORIES
©2010 Rasmussen Reports, LLC



Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:10 am
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Post Re: National Health Care.
What does that have to do with anything?
Those are just statistics on whether people think it ought to be repealed.
It does nothing to address their familiarity with the bill. The party of NO has simply been broadcasting a steady stream of non-sense, espoused by the two crazies you sited, in fact, about death panels and other plainly made-up boogie men.

Where are these loop holes you are talking about?
Lets see some real concerns here, instead of chicken little action.


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Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
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Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?


Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:12 pm
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Post Re: National Health Care.
johnson1010 wrote:
What does that have to do with anything?
Those are just statistics on whether people think it ought to be repealed.
It does nothing to address their familiarity with the bill. The party of NO has simply been broadcasting a steady stream of non-sense, espoused by the two crazies you sited, in fact, about death panels and other plainly made-up boogie men.

Where are these loop holes you are talking about?
Lets see some real concerns here, instead of chicken little action.


just face it, no one knows the familiarity of the healthcare bill. if you do, then you must work for some government agency because not one American knows what is in that bill! I understand it is hundreds and hundreds of pages. The only thing that was made clear was the fact that everyone HAD to be covered by this plan. I don't mean to argue but these are the facts. some people, such as yourself, just think we are going to be handed his health care plan. Just answer this one question; when you get healthcare through a provider such as Blue Cross and Blue Shield, don't they send you a booklet with what is covered and what is not covered? I haven't seen any booklets like that with Obama care have you???



Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:53 pm
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Post Re: National Health Care.
No, you don't have to be part of Obama's Regime to know what is in the bill.

All you really have to do is look for it a little bit.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/03/ ... -care-bill

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2010/mar/22/ ... -ar-60585/

Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?


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Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

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Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?


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Post Re: National Health Care.
I have read all the facts and that's all I have to say. I am is as knowledgeable about it as anyone else. I am not scared to read what is going on as you suggested. The only thing that scares me is this health plan and a financial hardship this country is under. Have you tried to get money, borrowed money, from government lately to put two children through college? I am 100% disabled and my husband, although he works full time, does not bring home a huge salary! and still, time and time again we have been denied borrowed money from the government. Now who's to blame for that?



Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:42 pm
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Post Re: National Health Care.
did you read the links?

They explain what is in the health care bill. We are talking about a 1000 page document. That's the same as some stephen king novels, not the literary equivalent of the minotaur's labyrinth.

You keep saying there is no way of knowing what is in the bill. Well, try reading the three links i posted in this thread that explain what's in there. If that doesnt satisfy you, you could certainly find other links with more detailed info, or even read the bill yourself.

It isn't that hard to be informed on these things. Instead you repeatedly say how "nobody knows" what's in the bill.

What do you imagine you might find in the bill? What secret devestation lies waiting for us in this diabolical document?


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Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?


Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:33 pm
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Post Re: National Health Care.
Phillies, you're defending the insurance companies. Have you ever been a victim of one? The loudest voices tend to be those with the most money(most access to media). Your views are very polarized, but so are millions of Americans. It's absurd, when you think about it. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle, but people always believe what they hear the most. The two are not the same.

I'm familiar with the health care bill, but am not opposed to it. A good exercise in critical thinking is to list the pros as well as the cons, regardless of your current standing. Can you list the reasons that the Health Care bill is beneficial to all Americans?



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Post Re: National Health Care.
I'll repeat that the problem might be with the hospitals, doctors, medical supply companies, etc., as far as the high cost of our health-care. To what extent do the insurance companies contribute to the fact that we pay a lot more for care than is the case in other rich countries? Just asking; I'm sure they might, but is it that much?

My employer is raising the cost of my family plan 9.5%. That's a big one-year increase that might be due to the failure of this plan to address the high prices that providers charge. I'm not complaining, though, because we've got two children under 26 who now can get covered. If we, or they, had to pay for separate policies, the cost would be huge. Even if I didn't benefit personally from the reform, I hope I'd still be in favor of it for how it benefits the country as a whole.


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Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:07 am
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Post Re: National Health Care.
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Some posts back, etudient wrote:

People are excited about this plan but think about all the money that has been spent for health care in this entire country when the most important thing the president should be working on is finding jobs for so many people who are unemployed and all the wars overseas.


I hate to sound like a Luddite - but how can one 'find' jobs? If technology diminishes the need for jobs.....we reach the age of unemployment.

Where the 'working' classes are the elite and support those whose employment is not needed. Can we make this change peacefully???

Perhaps men were made to evolve - to eat, drink, be merry and dance....not go and work down in a coalmine....for the length of their days.

Perhaps we have reached the age of leisure....Can we cope with it?

Just a thought.


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Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:33 am
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Post Re: National Health Care.
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Perhaps men were made to evolve - to eat, drink, be merry and dance....not go and work down in a coalmine....for the length of their days.

Perhaps we have reached the age of leisure....Can we cope with it?


That is teleological Penelope. It's so easy to take that perspective, but in the end it's false. We would all be better off in an age of leisure. But for that to happen we would require not only our needs to be satisfied(food/water/shelter), but also our wants. You can't sit around leisurely when you want something.

Those unemployed also see many of their 'wants' as 'needs', in this age of entitlement. It feels like a sacrifice when you must cancel cable television in order to pay rent. We aren't satisfied with living with our 'needs' alone satisfied. We must also have our 'wants' satisfied, as we feel entitled to them and empty without them. To change the zeitgeist and make this an age of leisure, you'd have to wax philosophical with millions of people and get them to be utterly non-materialistic and do away with their entitlement philosophy.



Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:09 pm
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Post Re: National Health Care.
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Interbane wrote:

It's so easy to take that perspective, but in the end it's false. We would all be better off in an age of leisure. But for that to happen we would require not only our needs to be satisfied(food/water/shelter), but also our wants. You can't sit around leisurely when you want something.


Perhaps are wants are illusionary...our needs are real??

Much as I admire and appreciate what Charles Darwin did for us in showing us in 'Origin of Species' what is happening. I am with Alfred Russel Wallace - He independently discovered the principle of natural selection in 1858 and this spurred Darwn into publishing his own theories. Wallace always gave Darwin the credit for being the first to discover natural selection. Whilst he firmly believed in evolution, unlike Darwin he maintained that the human mind could not have originated by evolutionary processes.

Interbane, please forgive me.....I am in awe of your intput and I appreciate what you post....but I am writing this, none-the-less. I believe that it is good for our readers.....and if I lose the argument......I am not in a position to care.

But thank you....


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Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:34 pm
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Post Re: National Health Care.
Quote:
Interbane wrote:

Those unemployed also see many of their 'wants' as 'needs', in this age of entitlement. It feels like a sacrifice when you must cancel cable television in order to pay rent. We aren't satisfied with living with our 'needs' alone satisfied. We must also have our 'wants' satisfied, as we feel entitled to them and empty without them. To change the zeitgeist and make this an age of leisure, you'd have to wax philosophical with millions of people and get them to be utterly non-materialistic and do away with their entitlement philosophy.


We only 'feel' empty without them.....that is the propaganda at work.

We are not empty.....we are creative beings.

We are definitely as rich as the things we can do without....just take a look at 'poor' Paris Hilton.


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Post Re: National Health Care.
One of the reasons often cited for needing to change the health care system in this country is the higher costs but lower life expectancies in the United States compared with other developed countries. Critics of health care reform often counter that lower life expectancy is due to obesity, car accidents, homicides, and smoking in the United States. In other words, lower life expectancies come from factors outside the health care system (funny, they rarely advocate gun control or stricter auto regulations).

Until recently, there was no good answer to this argument. But last week a paper by two professors from the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia (one of whom is on leave, working at HHS), was published that refutes this idea:

"Others say that poor US health outcomes are largely due not to health care but to high rates of smoking, obesity, traffic fatalities, and homicides. We used cross-national data on the fifteen-year survival of men and women over three decades to examine the validity of these arguments. We found that the risk profiles of Americans generally improved relative to those for citizens of many other nations, but Americans’ relative fifteen-year survival has nevertheless been declining. For example, by 2005, fifteen-year survival rates for forty-five-year-old US white women were lower than in twelve comparison countries with populations of at least seven million and per capita gross domestic product (GDP) of at least 60 percent of US per capita GDP in 1975. The findings undercut critics who might argue that the US health care system is not in need of major changes."

The point is simple. Americans are not killing each other or eating themselves to death at a rate high enough to explain the higher mortality rates in the United States than the rest of the world. Something else must be responsible. The health care system is the likely culprit.


http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/co ... 010.0073v1



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Atheist Mind, Humanist Heart - by Lex Bayer and John FigdorSense and Goodness Without God - by Richard CarrierFrankenstein - by Mary ShelleyThe Big Questions - by Simon BlackburnScience Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

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