Mosque near Ground Zero

DWill · Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:25 am

The reasons given against the mosque being built two blocks from the former site of the World Trade Towers seem to me irrational ones. If this is true, does that mean such "reasoning" should be rejected and the Muslim center built, or should emotions be given consideration and the center denied?

johnson1010 · Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:05 am

The reasons are invalid.

A particular group of people attacked the WTC, not the Muslims of New York City.

Jon Stewart, speak on it.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-a ... nd-edition

wilde · Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:24 pm

Yeah it's really dumb... I mean, there's already been an actual mosque near there for quite some time. It's about... 4 or 5 blocks away, I think, so that whole "build it 5 or 6 blocks away, not 2" argument is crap. Building a mosque or Muslim community center or whatever is in no way dishonoring the memories of the people who died during the 9/11 attacks. That's just an excuse for prejudice.

Besides, it's 2 blocks away; it's not like they're turning Ground Zero itself into a mosque.

Suzanne · Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:06 pm

There are those who will always see an entire population of Muslims and automatically think terrorism. Having a Mosque close to ground zero, and two blocks is close, gives me a sense of healing. It is a testament of the best qualities in the US. The US should be a country where every citizen is free to live and worship as they like. It would be refreshing to realize that the US has come a long way from how it treated the Japanese during WWII. The Muslim community was treated badly after 9/11. I have a friend who is Iranian, and he said to me after 9/11, “Well, I guess I will have to be Italian for a while”, meaning that he was afraid. Having a Mosque so close to ground zero removes terror, and unites the citizens of the US, because Muslim does not equal terrorism.

And I agree with Wilde, objecting to the building of a Muslim center using the excuse that it somehow negates the horror of 9/11 only perpetuates the feeling of terror, and encourages bigotry. All citizens should feel safe, and I do believe that it is time to start healing without violence.

DWill · Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:01 pm

If I can attempt to clarify my question, I'm really not saying that opposing the mosque is irrational, only that the arguments I've heard seem to be. What I hear is that Muslims already have religious freedom--witness the other 40 mosques already in New York--so that calling this a controversy over religious freedom is ridiculous. But it isn't ridiculous. If anyone is denied an opportunity extended to others on principle, then a good reason has to be given for an exception to exist. The best reason that anyone has come up with is that the mosque is too close to Ground Zero. But how would we determine an inoffensive distance? And asking this question brings up the matter that the opponents want to hide, which is the reason for assuming an offense exists at all. The opponents believe, but they don't want to say, that all Islam is inherently implicit in the crimes of 9/11.

I think it is probably irrational to oppose this mosque but not other mosques as well. To say that Muslims have a right to build the mosque, but should not, in deference to public opinion, is to say that the right exists only by permission.

This is not an easy issue to decide, but opponents need to be more forthright about their assumptions if they want to be credible. I don't champion this mosque and frankly have a hard time being positive about any other. I just tolerate any of this display of devout religion. When we're told that Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam in charge, is a moderate, should that reassure us? He has said things that don't seem moderate to me. A moderate Muslim, unfortunately, can be a de facto enabler of extremism.
He and others should be carefullly watched and there needs to be transparency in the operations of this or any church.

With Muslims growing in numbers all over the country, however, no solid basis has yet been provided for denying the building of this mosque.

stahrwe · Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:26 pm


	wilde wrote: Yeah it's really dumb... I mean, there's already been an actual mosque near there for quite some time. It's about... 4 or 5 blocks away, I think, so that whole "build it 5 or 6 blocks away, not 2" argument is crap. Building a mosque or Muslim community center or whatever is in no way dishonoring the memories of the people who died during the 9/11 attacks. That's just an excuse for prejudice. Besides, it's 2 blocks away; it's not like they're turning Ground Zero itself into a mosque.

I respectfully request that you change your avatar to something which does not contain profanity.

Robert Tulip · Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:32 pm

Ground Zero is a symbol of religious conflict. The World Trade Towers were seen by their attackers as bastions of the Judeo-Christian domination of world finance. The amazing failure of American security in spending trillions on weapons but letting this attack succeed should be a matter for soul-searching. As Leonard Cohen said in his song Democracy, 'the heart has got to open in a fundamental way'. Dialogue with Islam is part of the opening of the American heart.

Christianity also contains texts, especially Chapter 18 of Revelation, that can be read as highly critical of the American worldview represented by the twin towers.


	Quote: Revelation 18 (King James Version) 1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

DWill · Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:13 pm

"Dialogue" with Muslims has to occur, if only because it's impossible to ignore a billion of the world's people without making matters worse. I'd be relieved to hear you say I misread you as stating that the murders of nearly 4,000 of the world's (not just America's) people was a moral aggression, or that failure to prevent the attack is a relevant concern in the same discussion. If the capitalism of the West (not just America; they were the World Trade Towers) is so morally bankrupt, what alternative moral worldview does Islam offer?

Robert Tulip · Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:11 pm


	DWill wrote: "Dialogue" with Muslims has to occur, if only because it's impossible to ignore a billion of the world's people without making matters worse. I'd be relieved to hear you say I misread you as stating that the murders of nearly 4,000 of the world's (not just America's) people was a moral aggression, or that failure to prevent the attack is a relevant concern in the same discussion. If the capitalism of the West (not just America; they were the World Trade Towers) is so morally bankrupt, what alternative moral worldview does Islam offer?

I didn't say the attack was moral, and I don't think it was moral. Islamic hatred of the West is not a positive moral emotion. The West and Islam have to cooperate. Islam can learn from the West, and vice versa.

My point in mentioning the story of Babylon was that critique of the culture of the West can be found in Christianity as much as in Islam. We could also look to Saint Paul's Letter to the Romans as directed towards New York. Christianity has resources to assist Christian nations to open cultural dialogue with Islam.

On the failure to prevent the attack, we can at least say that deep hatred of the West was not understood prior to the attack as having potential to deliver such a devastating blow, because America's military were not looking in the right direction. The soul-searching in the USA since 911 contributed to the election of President Obama, with his more sympathetic attitude towards Islam. The response to 911 also produced in the Bush administration the lashing out against Islam in the invasion of Iraq.

Effective response to Islam is a central question for American national security, and requires greater willingness for America to confess its faults. Building this rather large Islamic mosque so close to the site of the worst Islamist attack on the West does have symbolic and political ramifications for the relations between the USA and the Islamic world.

booklady · Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:01 pm

Is the Mosque actually going to be built on Ground Zero? Is that why everyone is up in arms?
I have more questions but they're even more politically uncorrect than this post.

I was under these 2 impressions (hearsay) but I could be dead wrong, natch:

1) That a park or some kind of memorial was built on Ground Zero as soon as it was humanly possible.

2) That this Mosque is to be several blocks away.

johnson1010 · Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:45 pm

No, the community center (giant building with all kinds of things going on, one of them being a mosque) is two blocks away from the WTC site.

Here's the mayor of New York speaking on this topic.
Very well put.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-a ... -bloomberg

dej102716 · Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:38 pm

there is or used to be something called the first ammendment.

johnson1010 · Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:48 am

This was the ground zero mosque.

The one that was destroyed as it was pancaked along with the rest of the south tower.

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2010/09/10 ... uth-tower/

The nonsense we are hearing about this alleged ground zero mosque is nothing but political fear mongering in an election cycle.

etudiant · Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:47 pm

It’s all very sad really. We have a group of people that feel the need to adhere to a medieval fairy tale, who in turn have had their beliefs, minimal as they are, hijacked by a much smaller group with psychopathic leanings, who have used them shamelessly to justify acting out their own particular dysfunctional angst.

And now the question is afoot about how much to accommodate this larger group. The politically incorrect answer would be of course to tell them to stop their silly nonsense, and use their time more productively in some way, like perhaps reading some good books. But of course this is not to be. The world can’t change overnight.

I suppose the answer is to let them build it, and to remain in dialogue as much as possible; but also to be rigorous, aggressive even, in mandating a solid education for all young people, one that insists on science and reason, from here on in.

Taylor · Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:04 am

It does not seem to me that the viewing public is witnessing much
of a separation of church and state, which is where the problem sits
in the U.S. All religion is paranoia and all government is greed.
Our tolerance for both sides created this mess and only intolerance towards
such foolishness can stop it, One thing I would point out is that when
a controversy occurs in the church all fingers point to the Vatican ,
Where do our muslim friends point to when they've a need for leadership .
A sad truth just may be that the powers that be on both sides have unspoken
agendas , who really can trust either side,what good comes of either outcome ,
Foolish optimism is the lance that will bring us all down.

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