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Penelope 
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 Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject:
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Chris said:-
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| So you said you feel sorry for people that cannot sense an eternal soul. |
I DID NOT SAY THIS!!!!
I only might have said, (although I didn't) that I find it hard to understand people who do not 'feel' their own soul.....seperate that is, from the mind.
I am not apportioning blame here......not even to myself.
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| How does an infinite universe lead you to believe in the Christian God? |
I never said anything (on this thread anyway) about belief in a Christian God. I really don't think it is possible, or even necessary to try to pigeonhole and categorise what God is........
If we lived and behaved as though our souls were eternal......because we sure as hell....don't have finite rationality.....like computers and machines. If we had a sense of 'endlessness' (for the want of a better word)...then it alters our whole concept of what life is about. I think it alters it for the better.........if we could only stop arguing about the bloody nuts and bolts.  |
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jaywalker
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Atheism & Freethought Explored
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| Penelope, I agree with all that,but don't smell the Marigolds. Here they are called 'Stinkertjes'. |
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DWill
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:16 am Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
| Chris.....to me it is irrational....not to notice that in this life.....there are some things which we cannot explain scientifically. |
Or is it, as some would say, there are some things which we cannot
yet explain scientifically? I wouldn't be one of these, though, and I totally agree with Penelope. I don't know whether her statement is one that Chris would want to dispute. I do see that Chris leans toward science, rationalism, and critical thinking as a panacea. I just feel that it pays to be not selectively skeptical, but healthily skeptical toward everything, and this would include science and our vaunted ability as rational beings. To believe in science is to be unscientific. Science is a method and a tool, yielding results that can be subject to further testing and perhaps eventually accepted provisionally as fact. But science can be well or poorly done, so in itself is not an area for belief.
I agree with Camus: I do not believe in God, and I am not an atheist. I do not know a lot about modern atheism. It disturbs me, though, to see that some atheists have such a heightened fear of irrationality around the matter of religion, that they would hint at disenfranchising wrong-thinking voters. Call me naive (some do), but to me the concern about folks like the CA motorcycle rider is exaggerated. It is bizarre, yes, but then I have a tolerance (and even some fondness?) for bizarreness. We have so many problems more pressing than what his belief represents. Nor is he, almost certainly, delusional in a mental illness sense. Dawkins is using hyperbole or just popular usage when he calls God-believers delusional.
Curiously, it may be science itself that can show us--through science--that Penelope is absolutely right about science not being able to explain everything. I highly recommend the preface of Stuart Kauffman's "Reinventing the Sacred" for a brief summary of the limitations of scientific reductionism. I would like in fact to find some way of posting the whole chapter on Booktalk, but this would probably not be legal.
Another good subject Penelope brings up is sensing as a way of knowing. Chris asks her to analyze, specify, define, but these operations may be antithetical to the mode of knowing that Penelope is talking about. Perhaps some would say that sensing/intuiting itself is not a valid or reliable way of knowing. But to say this would seem to cut off spirituality from its roots. That, again, might be OK for some, but I also agree with P. that we are lost without some exercise of spirituality (even though I dislike the vagueness of the word). We are spiritual as well as rational creatures. A balance is best, as P. said.
DWill
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:16 am Post subject:
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| Penelope is absolutely right about science not being able to explain everything. |
Name a few things science cannot and will never be able to explain. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:57 am Post subject:
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Chris - Science starts with 'a theory' - I am thinking here of Stephen Hawking - he gives us theories as to what 'Black Holes' in space are. He gives us theories as to what 'Antimatter' is. He gives us theories as to what he calls - 'wormholes' are. They are very interesting theories and based on assumptions.
My faith system also is based on assumptions.
When I say 'The Mathematics are beautiful' I am not being provocative or silly. Music - is mathematical. The Chords and Harmonies and the very sounds can be given mathematical values. (sound waves). Musicians and Mathematicians will agree with this and both agree that Johanne Sebastian Bach's music - is Musical Mathematics. But it is beautiful to listen to and can move people to tears, just because of its sound.
I get moved to tears when I hear some music.......I theorise that that is a response of my soul........it is just an assumption.
When we went to India, I didn't want to go and see the Taj Mahal....because it was so hot....and I am not all that interested in going to look at touristy places. However.....when I walked grumpily up the steps......and through the arch......and saw it........(it looks as though it is floating, Chris).......I became covered in goosepimples and was absolutely 'gobsmacked'. What was it in me that caused me to feel like that? I wasn't anticipating that feeling........but I don't think I have ever seen anything so beautiful......what was it in me that was responding so intensely to that beauty?
That is what I call 'my soul' - it is only a theory.....and I don't think it can ever be proved. So you can call me deluded....be my guest.
I just get very wary.....when one group of people start to call another group of people, morons....or by the names of animals....dogs, or pigs or whatever. I get upset when it is said that such people shouldn't be allowed to vote.......In view of recent history.....I feel I have to jump in and say something......but I am not trying to persuade you to become a believer in anything. I know you have a soul....but if you don't believe in it, that's OK by me.
There is a system of mathematics...devised by some Italian Mathematician called - Fibonacci - which looks at the ratios and measurements of flowers, sea shell spirals......and etc.......It is very beautiful mathematics.
If you care to, you could Google - Fibonacci. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject:
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Chris O'Connor, Frank, Mr P., Theomantic....
I have just thought.....if you can all be bothered to look at Professor Stephen Hawking.....on the Internet...Oh....Google him do....
Because there you will see the 'grandeur' of the human soul...
Look at HIM, just look at him.....please! |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject:
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| Science starts with 'a theory' |
Actually, no. Science starts with a hypothesis and ends with a theory. And theories are subject to revision or invalidation. This conversation is difficult because we define basic terms differently. We can be using the same words and having completely different meanings.
I too get tears in my eyes and goosebumps and awe-struck at times. But these are emotional responses that scientists have studied in depth for an exceedingly long time. What to you is a reflection of a "soul" to science is a naturally selected chemical response to external, and sometimes internal, stimuli.
Knowing how human emotions operate doesn't make them any less amazing. Understanding what keeps an aircraft up in the air doesn't deny me the goosebumps and lump I get in my throat when I fly along the beach in an open cockpit biplane. You're assuming that understanding something takes away its beauty and you're simply not right. This is your assumption. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject:
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Chris says:
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| You're assuming that understanding something takes away its beauty and you're simply not right. This is your assumption. |
No Chris......in fact...I am saying the opposite.....I am saying that some things...we understand....and they are still very beautiful.....The Mathematics which make the music.....I understand....it is still beautiful though, and people throughout many years and throughout many nations are agreed on this. Hallelujah!!!! - (sorry...couldn't resist!!!  ).
Chris says:
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| What to you is a reflection of a "soul" to science is a naturally selected chemical response to external, and sometimes internal, stimuli. |
Well, animals and machines....don't have this response to external stimuli and who is to say that it is not a reflection of the soul. WHAT IS IT otherwise???
Now, that an orgasm...is just a muscle spasm....I can accept!!!!
Chris said:
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| Understanding what keeps an aircraft up in the air doesn't deny me the goosebumps and lump I get in my throat when I fly along the beach in an open cockpit biplane. |
Yesssss.....and a Bumble Bee is aerodymanically impossible.....so the scientists say.....but the bumble bees still fly around!! (That gives me the goosebumps.....).
Having said that.....if I ever come to Florida.....will you take me for a ride in your biplane along the beach???? Or do you hate me too much????
Maybe...you would throw me out from a great height......and I am not aerodynamic!!!!! But I would trust your soul.....with my soul. 
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject:
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I have just thought.....if you can all be bothered to look at Professor Stephen Hawking.....on the Internet...Oh....Google him do....
Because there you will see the 'grandeur' of the human soul... |
Google Stephen Hawking? Surely you jest. Hawking is one of my long time idols. I've read A Brief History of Time and The Universe in a Nutshell multiple times each. I've studied Hawking's life and personal philosophy. And I've started the process of setting up an interview with Hawking here on BookTalk.org.
With that said you've said nothing to indicate Hawking has a "soul." You can't even define or describe the word, let along show it as existing. And Hawking wouldn't argue that he has a soul either, especially when you can't even define the term.
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| Well, animals and machines....don't have this response to external stimuli and who is to say that it is not a reflection of the soul. WHAT IS IT otherwise??? |
Huh?  Animals don't have emotions? They most certainly do. Where did you get this idea? Penelope, you're a bright person. You ought to do some reading in the areas that we're discussing so that some of your "awe" can be converted into knowledge. I bet your awe won't vanish and will actually grow. Don't be afraid of learning a little science. You won't lose what you call your "soul."
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| Having said that.....if I ever come to Florida.....will you take me for a ride in your biplane along the beach???? Or do you hate me too much???? |
I don't personally own a biplane, but a friend of mine did years ago and flying along the Gulf beaches is an incredible experience. And I don't hate you at all. Yes, I get frustrated at times, but it is only when I can't seem to find the words to bridge the gap between our thoughts. So I couldn't take you for a biplane ride, but I'd be happy to have a cup of coffee or two with you. |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject:
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| Yesssss.....and a Bumble Bee is aerodymanically impossible.....so the scientists say.....but the bumble bees still fly around!! (That gives me the goosebumps.....). |
This is a myth. We understand perfectly well why Bumble Bees are able to fly. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_045.html |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:47 am Post subject:
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A cup of coffee or even two.....isn't the same as a ride in an open-topped plane.....
This is what I said:-
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| Well, animals and machines....don't have this response to external stimuli and who is to say that it is not a reflection of the soul. WHAT IS IT otherwise??? |
This is what Chris says I said:
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| Huh? Animals don't have emotions? They most certainly do. Where did you get this idea? Penelope, you're a bright person. You ought to do some reading in the areas that we're discussing so that some of your "awe" can be converted into knowledge. I bet your awe won't vanish and will actually grow. Don't be afraid of learning a little science. You won't lose what you call your "soul." |
I didn't say animals didn't have emotions....I said they didn't have the same emotional response as we do....to music or to a beautiful building or scene.....which they don't. And I think you are deliberately misunderstanding or reinterpreting what I am saying.
I actually do quite a bit of reading in these areas.....particularly of Fibonacci Mathematics.......because I can understand what I am reading then, but when I try to read 'A Brief History of Time' I find I am completely baffled, even though I admire Prof. Hawkings to so much and, furthermore, I have spoken to scientists and engineers who say they are quite baffled by Stephen Hawking too and are jealous of his big brain....so you must be a very clever person ineed.  |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:13 am Post subject:
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Actually Chris....I have been having these same kinds of discussions/arguments with my 'scientific' husband for most of the 44 years we have been married...and so I am quite used to 'fielding the ball'.
There was once a very famous 'cult' book called 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' which discussed a lot of the problems.
The author said:-
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| There seem to be two kinds of people.....one will look at the motor-cycle and study the working parts of the engine.....and think that is beautiful. Another type of person will look at the whole bike....the whole concept of the bike and the perceive the joy of riding at speed through the open air....and think that it is beautiful........they both get their sense of beauty from different ways of looking. |
I have a way of looking at Prof. Stephen Hawking.......and you have another way. I don't think either way is wrong.
The difference is.......I would fight to the death for your right to vote....and I would never call you a moron..........
Can you say the same?  |
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DWill
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:08 am Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| Name a few things science cannot and will never be able to explain. |
Chris,
Not to be Clintonesque, but it depends (partly) on what "explain" means. It's more than minor semantics, because if we adopt the meaning "to answer all questions", we set a difficult--I would say impossibly difficult--task for science. There are those at-the-bottom-of-it-all questions that many people want to talk about but that science itself recognizes an inability to approach.
If "explain" is taken to mean reducing phenomena to natural law, giving us the ability to show how diverse phenomena respond to the same law, and also allowing us to predict and manipulate based on that law, I would point first to areas of life that depend on emergent properties and say that science cannot and will not be able to reduce these areas to law. Economics and social/cultural change come first to mind. But even an area of more traditional science--evolution and natural selection--may not be reducible to law in all of its aspects because of its emergent properties that cannot be predicted. This question is still being studied. (I might want to add weather prediction to the list.)
Science can be useful even it can't explain. We see this many times. What neuroscientist would claim that we have explained the brain? Yet we can describe some things that it does and use this knowledge to advance our ability to intervene medically. For me, whatever we know about the chemical/electrical properties of the brain does not decrease my wonder of it. It is not just chemicals and impulses, because, really, we can't explain how or why these work. Neuroscientists are unfairly criticized for wanting to reduce our minds to chemical reactions. There is no reduction going on, in my view, because describing is not the same as explaining away.
DWill |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:49 am Post subject:
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How beautifully and succinctly worded - Will.
Some people have the benefit of a really good education.....and are also bright and courageous enough to think for themselves.
In England....I am afraid to say, we have some schools for the monumentally dim. Schools, in which places are gained because of your family background......(Does the father have a tattoo? Is one of the questions which disqualifies a child.)
Schools like Harrow and Eton....are schools which teach these citizens to become our leaders. Now, it is not a child's fault if it is monumentally dim.....but some kids whose fathers have tattoos.....are very bright indeed. The fathers have no money!!
My argument with you Chris.....is not whether either of them deserve an education.....they all deserve to be educated. And I don't know how to build a Utopia where the best able to lead and guide us, get the right sort of education.... (I might add here that I am very pleased at the way your elections are going - God Bless America!)
BUT......We all deserve a vote.....and no one....absolutely no one.....(especially a whole group of people) deserves to be called a moron.
Now I am tempted, often....to call people Morons. There is a certain Mr. Rober | | |
