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Liberty, or library?
Liberty, or Library?
I can't find the library thread so I'm starting a new one.
I'm afraid I never go to libraries, I went when I was a student but haven't felt the need for one since, or perhaps I haven't come accross one that I like.
This is to write what I think is a nice little story from one of my students-- it certainly had us laugh in the teachers' room.
My group was doing listening comprehension using one of Obama's speeches (a deep male voice and a non-British accent are difficulties for this sort of task). When it came to quoting from the Declaration of Independence and American people's inalienable rights, one boy wrote what he heard: "among these are life, library and the pursuit of happiness."
So here is a second poll for Americans at BT: Would you be willing to give up the "liberty" bit so that you can keep the ...libraries?
After all, think of the lovely library Gentle Reader seems to have in Eugene, Oregon (the ones I know are all rather drab). Wouldn't you be willing to give up something to keep such an enchanting place?
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Ophelia,
This really makes sense to me and I like the question! I do give up some "liberty" (of the superficial, material consumerist kind that Bacevich talks about in The Limits of Power, as well as a kind I think is more substantive) in order to have our library.
I live in a small, supernatural area a little outside the offical city limits of Eugene in terms of services (and maybe property tax and zoning, I guess; I'm a renter) yet my mail goes to Eugene and I have a vote for mayor and a city council representative, and the children here are in the Eugene school district, so go figure that out. Anyway, a majority of Eugene voters decided at some point that people who are not in some specifically, definitely Eugene, proper, limited zone need to pay $80 per year (that's if you pay it all at once; it's more if you pay it in pieces over time because you're poorer) in order for the household to have library cards. So I actually pay at least $80 per year to support the library. Unlike the people who voted for this situation, I do not resent subsidizing their use of the library. If that's how they feel about it, too bad for them to be so pinched and stingy-minded.
In a capitalist, supposedly democratic republic we have to be tolerant, even of the insecurity and pettiness of others, and be willing to sacrifice to some degree for what we believe to be of value for everyone. As I said before, I love our library. I take out and benefit from hundreds of books, tapes and CDs every year that I could not possibly buy for $80, not to mention the computer use and some other benefits I could get away with for free without a card. I probably wouldn't think to donate this much voluntarily if the law didn't exist, because I don't make very much money. But I can pay the out-of-city limits fee without resentment and flatter myself that I am one of many such "anonymous donors" who are willing to make up what might otherwise be a shortfall, even though the method for deciding this as a group is not the most economically progressive or fair way to raise the revenue. Who's to say it doesn't work out even or more than even? I don't care enough to do the math. I've never argued with an ex- for any money and I'm not arguing with my neighbors over it if I can help it either. In my case, I think it's worth it. If I didn't, I could forgo it and lose my library card privilege. It is a privilege, afterall. If we want to have nice, civilized institutions, we have to pay for them and we have to do so under the constraints other participants bring to the table. I am only in charge of my vote, but I can help give other future voters a chance to become more educated and refined if I am willing to pay for it. I am.
_________________ "Where can I find a man who has forgotten the words so that I can talk with him?"
-- Chuang-Tzu (c. 200 B.C.E.)
as quoted by Robert A. Burton
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GentleReader9 wrote:
Ophelia,
This really makes sense to me and I like the question! I do give up some "liberty" (of the superficial, material consumerist kind that Bacevich talks about in The Limits of Power, as well as a kind I think is more substantive) in order to have our library.
I concur! I use our little library several times a week. I don't think I could get by without it.
_________________ Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads ~ Henry David Thoreau
“People usually consider walking on water or in thin air a miracle. But I think the real miracle is not to walk either on water or in thin air, but to walk on earth. Every day we are engaged in a miracle which we don’t even recognize: a blue sky, white clouds, green leaves, the black, curious eyes of a child — our own two eyes. All is a miracle.” -Thich Nhat Hahn
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Quote:
Ophelia: So here is a second poll for Americans at BT: Would you be willing to give up the "liberty" bit so that you can keep the ...libraries?
Within our sacred secular mythology, the Library is a sanctuary for Liberty. It is the Library that feeds, informs, inspires and guides an unruly chaos into a Liberated Citizen. Libraries are the Liberty-hating Tyrant's first and perpetual enemy. Libraries are radical because they maintain our connections to our roots, reminding us that we are rooted in Liberty.
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Personally, I wouldn't. I value liberty quite a bit, and had I the choice of the liberty to do whatever I wanted or easy access to books (via libraries, private ownership, or whatever), I'd go with the liberty.
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Quote:
John Milton, Areopagitica
Who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
I agree that you have to have liberty in order to have a good library. Afterall, what good is a library that is full of censored, politicised material? You could trust what you read even less, and you wouldn't be able to find counter-arguments. So, I vote give me liberty, and give me library.
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There was a specific context to the definition of liberty in the original question. Obviously I wouldn't give up Liberty, in the abstract, on the whole, in order to go to the library. That would be silly. Not that I haven't done anything silly, but that's another issue.
I was thinking of the way some people (like Bacevich, an author we were reading at the time) seem to conflate liberty with consumerist choices, setting up the kind of false dichotomy we were playing with above: Library or Liberty. It's a silly question and since I'm silly that's how I answered it.
Superficial product distinctions, ownership and exclusivity are not liberty; capitalism just makes them seem alike.
The public library is a collectivist institution, which ignores largely artificial values attached to ownership, marketing and brands to allow for a more genuine exploration of content, and a deeper kind of Liberty: the liberty to think and say anything. Even silly things sometimes.
_________________ "Where can I find a man who has forgotten the words so that I can talk with him?"
-- Chuang-Tzu (c. 200 B.C.E.)
as quoted by Robert A. Burton
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Suzanne wrote:
Hello Tom:
Quote:
Think critically about critical thinking.
Is this something new? I may have to add it to my favorite quote list.
Help me out here, Suzanne. Didn't you say you had an Aunt who taught Critical Thinking at Berkeley? Critical Thinking is the atheist's method of thought, and I'd like to know what it is and where it came from -- the better to deal with the odd thinking of atheists at BookTalk, you understand Clearly it isn't standard logic because BookTalk atheists have no understanding of valid reasoning or of fallacies and employ them wildly.
Critical Thinking appears to have sprung full grown from the mind of Edward Glaser in 1941, but of course it didn't. It's possibly a rehash of propaganda research of the 30's and 40's, Korzybski, Hayakawa, and Upton, and may be defined as emotional thinking applied to liberal ends, supposedly a beneficial propaganda. It has its own website:
They way I understand it and more importantly, intend it when I say it, is the opposite of lazy thinking, or lack of thinking.
You say critical thinking is the atheists method of thought. Perhaps it is a lens by which we explore reality, but it's only one lens. The opposite then would be a theist, who lacks the ability to think, is that what you're inferring?
It's concerning that you feel cornered enough to persuade people to share your confused perspective on who a person is that doesn't believe in a deity.
"Help me out here, Suzanne."
My beliefs are as different from Franks and Chris' as they are from yours, but I do share a passion for clear thought and understanding, with an emphasis on looking for the truth. With all the garbage in religion, it's not coincidental that people who value thinking clearly would reject it. It's interesting that a person seemingly as intelligent as yourself would lash out against the idea that using your brain is a good thing.
Critical thinking is bad and dead people have heartbeats Tom.
_________________ “In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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critical thinking
Thomas Hood wrote:
Quote:
Help me out here, Suzanne. Didn't you say you had an Aunt who taught Critical Thinking at Berkeley?
Yes
Dr. Eileen Gambrill wrote:
Quote:
Critical thinking involves more than the mere possession of related knowledge and skills. It requires using them in everyday situations and acting on the results of thinking carefully. It involves accurately presenting alternative perspectives and paying attention to the process of reasoning, not just the product. Strong-sense critical thinking involves a genuine fair-mindedness in which opposing views are accurately presented and there is a genuine effort to fairly critique both preferred and unpreferred views. Critical thinking involves questioning what others take for granted, asking "What's the evidence for this?" even when professors, supervisors, or administrators would rather not consider such questions. It requires paying attention to gaps between our background knowledge (current beliefs and related evidence) and related research findings. Critical thinking and scientific reasoning are closely related. Clarity and the critical appraisal of claims is important in both. Both share a commitment to fair mindedness and reliance on standards that are more likely than others to yield accurate answers to certain kinds of questions.
Eileen lectures all over the world, she has published many books, and is considered an expert on this topic in relation to social work. She has also done extensive research on behavior modification.
_________________ I feel like a wet seed wild in the hot blind earth. --William Faulkner
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Re: critical thinking
Suzanne wrote:
Dr. Eileen Gambrill wrote. . .
Thank you, Suzanne. Your aunt's nine-sentence description of critical thinking supports my view that critical thinking is "emotional thinking applied to liberal ends, supposedly a beneficial propaganda."
Quote:
1. Critical thinking involves more than the mere possession of related [academic] knowledge and skills.
2. It requires using them [knowledge and skills] in everyday situations and acting on the results of thinking carefully.
social values:
3. It involves accurately [fairly] presenting alternative perspectives and paying attention to the process [psychology] of reasoning, not just the product.
4. Strong-sense critical thinking involves a genuine fair-mindedness in which opposing views are accurately presented and there is a genuine effort to fairly critique both preferred and unpreferred views.
5. Critical thinking involves questioning what others take for granted, asking "What's the evidence for this?" even when [authority figures] professors, supervisors, or administrators would rather not consider such questions.
6. It requires paying attention to gaps between our [past] background knowledge (current beliefs and related evidence) and [present] related research findings.
science:
7. Critical thinking and scientific reasoning are closely related.
8. Clarity and the critical appraisal of claims is important in both.
9. Both share a commitment to fair mindedness and reliance on standards that are more likely than others to yield accurate answers to certain kinds of questions.
Note how values are intruded: "fair-mindedness" (3, 4, 9), resistance to authority (5), and the cachet of science (7, 8, 9). Such social and political considerations are no part of traditional logic and its analysis of faulty reasoning.
_________________ Think critically about critical thinking.
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Quote:
TH Your aunt's nine-sentence description of critical thinking supports my view that critical thinking is "emotional thinking applied to liberal ends, supposedly a beneficial propaganda."
Wow, you have again surprised me with your ability to mentally twist (in your own mind) the definition of a word into something entirely different to suit your needs!
Critical thinking is fair to all sides of the debate, it involves honest evaluation of all claims, it takes nothing for granted and even the thought process is scrutinized.
Yet to you this is bad and is “emotional thinking” and “propaganda”.
Why?
Apparently just because the scientific thought process is similar.
Although I do see why it is bad for you… it requires that evidence be presented… which for religious claims is a terrible setback.
I really shouldn’t be surprised… your debating style is nearly the exact opposite of critical/rational thinking…
You have preconceived notions that you do not waver from and no amount of legitimate counter evidence can persuade you…
You do not look at the subjects fairly or give equal credit to all credible examples…
You blatantly take sides (bowing to religious authority) giving no credibility to any opposing examples offered…
You insist without evidence while we are insisting on evidence…
You also show open bigotry towards atheists and nonbelievers of all kinds…
You show open distain for a thought process that even you use every day… although you seem to be unaware of it.
Unless you are monumentally gullible you use this process to weed out bogus claims from legitimate claims regularly.
But you go on with your ranting… it is what you do best.
Later
_________________ That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Clearly it isn't standard logic because BookTalk atheists have no understanding of valid reasoning or of fallacies and employ them wildly.
