Liars and whores

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:25 am Post subject: Liars and whores

Does anyone really think Mary had Jesus through an immaculate conception? It is far more likely she got knocked up by someone and kept it secret so as not to get stoned to death.

And Moses went up into the mountain and returned with the 10 Commandments? My ass. Did anyone do a body cavity search on the guy before he headed up the mountain? I bet he brought a chisel. :eek

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be." -- Leonardo da Vinci

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Liars and whores

A parthenogenetic birth is always female.

Science is neither a philosophy nor a belief system. It is a combination of mental operations that has become increasingly the habit of educated peoples, a culture of illuminations hit upon by a fortunate turn of history that yielded the most effective way of learning about the real world ever conceived. E.O.Wilson

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Liars and whores

/wanders off to www.dictionary.com

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be." -- Leonardo da Vinci

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Liars and whores

This cannot happen in humans or I would have heard of it.

Quote:
A form of reproduction in which an unfertilized egg develops into a new individual, occurring commonly among insects and certain other arthropods.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be." -- Leonardo da Vinci

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Liars and whores

...except during the cloning process. Read me.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be." -- Leonardo da Vinci

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Liars and whores

The point is, "virgin birth" is extremely unlikely but not physically impossible. So when the christians say it happened once, we couldn't rule out their assertion as impossible, except for the fact that the virgin birth of a male is physically impossible (in humans, of course).

Science is neither a philosophy nor a belief system. It is a combination of mental operations that has become increasingly the habit of educated peoples, a culture of illuminations hit upon by a fortunate turn of history that yielded the most effective way of learning about the real world ever conceived. E.O.Wilson

PeterDF · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Liars and whores

Wow Parthenogenesis!

The explanation as I have come to understand it is far more prosaic.

It seems that Jesus' brother James denied the virgin birth too. He also denied Christ's divinity, and incidentally the same contemporary sources suggest that Jesus was a vegetarian. James led a group of Early Christians who knew Jesus and followed him during his lifetime, this group came to be known as the Ebionites.

Perhaps the Ebionites might have remained an obscure Judaic sect if a certain Saul of Tarsus hadn't had a mysterious conversion to Christianity on the road to Damascus.

In one of his letters Saul (who renamed himself Paul after the conversion) refers to a mysterious infirmity that he had. It is now thought that he might have had Left Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, which can cause the sufferer to experience profound religious or revelatory experiences. It was Paul to whom God "revealed?" that Jesus' birth was the result of divine intervention and it was he who claimed that Christ was the Son of God.

There was a split in the 1st Century Christian church between the followers of James, and those of Paul, which culminated in a meeting at the Temple which has become known as (I think) the Council of Jerusalem. The sticking point was over whether Christians should have to undergo circumcision and follow the Jewish food traditions. Paul knew that it would be difficult to get non-Jewish people to convert, if they were required to follow the laws so he argued against it. The followers of James disagreed. The meeting broke up acrimoniously and ended in violence. Paul only escaped with his life by revealing to the guards that he was a Roman Citizen.

In the latter part of the 1st C. there was a massive Jewish uprising against the Romans, which led to the destruction of the Temple and the expulsion of the Jews from Israel and Judea. I suspect that the Ebionites might well have been expelled or annihilated at this time. In any case none of their gospels have survived and the Pauline version of events became the canon of the nascent church.

Then again it might have been parthenogenesis

Edited by: PeterDF at: 8/27/03 7:44 am

Dom · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Depressing News

Im always confused by the doctrine of 'what it says in the bible is the word of God, therefore it is absolutely true' when so many versions exist. I would love to know how one tells one 'truth' from another...

LanDroid · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:43 am Post subject: Re: Depressing News

Heh, somehow I never thought of in-vitro fertilization, cloning, and some other fertility measures as "virgin births" before. It is probably deeply disturbing to some people to know that there are a significant number of people walking around right now resulting from "immaculate conceptions". :lol

(Virgin birth & immaculate conception perhaps incorrectly defined by me as no erect human penis entered and ejaculated inside a human vagina.

)

Yeah, another disturbing aspect of "The Bible as Ultimate Truth" is the contradictory statements made within it. And another is some of the horrific activities that it supports such as genocide and slavery. Since God's laws do not change, this means the Bible supports genocide and slavery at this very minute... :eek

Edited by: LanDroid at: 8/28/03 5:47 am

seanf 2003 · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Depressing News

There's a song by Dick Gaughan, an atheist Scottish folk singer, that seems relevant. It's called "The Son of Man," and the chorus goes:

"Are you the Messiah
The one foretold to come
I am the Son of Man he said
The Son of Man"

Isn't it a little silly to be discussing whether the immaculate conception was physically possible? The whole point is that it was a miracle - it doesn't have to be physically possible!

Niall001 · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Depressing News

Im always confused by the doctrine of 'what it says in the bible is the word of God, therefore it is absolutely true' when so many versions exist - Dom.

There aren't really. Are you talking about the different translations or the books that aren't generally accepted by the majority of christians?

The different translations just represent different attempts to accurately translate the bible. I suppose most protestant churches don't accept the deutrocanonical books of the bible and then there are the Apocrypha which are not accepted as being inspired by God and generally thought to be the works of heretics.

Niall001 · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Genesis

Why, Why Why. You are asking us to speculate on the reasons why a being of unlimited intellect did something. But look at it this way, we tell kids every day that the sun rises in the east and goes down in the west. It isn't true though. Why do we do it? Are we liars? Is it a myth?

As for 2 accounts of creation, they aren't really. I can explain if you state the specifics of your case. The other points, to explain would take a while.

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Genesis

Niall

Quote:
we tell kids every day that the sun rises in the east and goes down in the west. It isn't true though.

"It is the east; and Juliet is the Sun. Arise, fair sun, and kill the pale envious moon!" Since Einstein explained that all motion is relative, the Earth turning on its axis and the sun rising in the East are both equally valid ways of describing the perceived phenomenon. My kid knows more about planetary motion than I do, though.

Science is neither a philosophy nor a belief system. It is a combination of mental operations that has become increasingly the habit of educated peoples, a culture of illuminations hit upon by a fortunate turn of history that yielded the most effective way of learning about the real world ever conceived. E.O.Wilson

stevepainter · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Genesis

"Why, Why Why. You are asking us to speculate on the reasons why a being of unlimited intellect did something."

I'm sorry, but this is a cop out. Letting anyone get away with a statement like this absolves them from having to actually answer anything. All this does is remove the matter from rational discourse.

Could we perhaps at least agree that God's statements and actions, as popularly represented in the Bible, often appear quite irrational to us? However, if the ultimate answer to any of the more difficult questions is along the lines of "well, God is so awesome that how can we hope to understand His motives" there is little point in continuing.

PeterDF · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Genesis

I have to agree with Steve's point here if we accept God a priori what the hell have we got to talk about.


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