Below is an excerpt from an essayDo the Impossible: Know Thyself by Theodore Dalyrimple. In it, he approaches two questions: "The first was whether any scientific self-understanding was possible. The second was whether, if possible, it was desirable. My answer to both questions was, and is, no."

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Those who say that we are on the verge of a huge increase in self-understanding are claiming that enlightenment will suddenly be reached under the scientific bo tree. The enlightenment will have to be sudden rather than gradual because, if it were gradual, we should already be able to point to an increase in human contentment and self-control brought about by our already increased knowledge. But even the most advanced societies are just as full of angst, or poor impulse control, of existential bewilderment, of adherence to clearly irrational doctrines, as ever they were. There is no sign that, Prozac and neurosurgery notwithstanding, any of this is about to change fundamentally.

In other words, I think that life will continue to bewilder us for as long as we are self-conscious, thinking, feeling beings.

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How can we ever have an objective picture of ourselves. We have the most biased observer possible.

Every story must come to an end.

Wisdom about oneself or the world around us does not come from science or from religion, neither is an effective tool for this particular brand of knowledge.

Living life is the only effective method of gaining wisdom that I know of. Some people are faster learners than others, but experience is the best teacher.

Self awareness, discipline, compassion, generosity, love and empathy are all better understood with experience.

If anything the religious people I have met are lacking in wisdom, having been sheltered from living life.

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If anything the religious people I have met are lacking in wisdom, having been sheltered from living life.

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Here's the one thats gonna drive you nuts. Does it seem that way because thats the way it is or because thats the way you see it. Do you experiance things as they are, or as you are?

Every story must come to an end.

What's the difference between an orange?

That question makes no sense.

Every story must come to an end.

Precisely.

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MeasterAuron
Here's the one that's gonna drive you nuts. Does it seem that way because that's the way it is or because that's the way you see it? Do you experience things as they are, or as you are?

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It's not just my view point; many ex theists make the same case, they say that religion kept them from living life to its full potential. Many also make the case that they were woefully unprepared to face the world when they left home because religion did not allow them to experience the whole picture.

If you want a detailed description of how this works check out the "X-Jehovah witness tells all" thread in the member's personal writing area. Naddia explains about that problem and others in fantastic detail. It is long but definitely worth the read.

From my experience it is also true. Many church going young people are clueless to the world's actual workings, and dangerously so. Even my mother (who is a born again Christian) complained that religion and her religious parents sheltered her way to much and she had to learn some hard lessons when she left home for the first time.

I have seen and heard countless stories about such problems. These kids had no experience with how to deal with negative peer pressure, sexual pressure, and sex in general, or how to deal with people who lacked compassion, morality or tolerance. They never learn to fight for themselves or their values. They were simply sheltered from such elements.

Even today many of the religious in America do not learn how to discipline themselves to avoid what they consider sin, they would rather remove temptation.

In many cases the religious suffer from the same lack of compassion and tolerance but aren't even aware of it, because they simply do not get the fact that most of the world does not believe what they do, their compassion is limited to their "kind". The catholic church is most guilty in this mindset.

Many grow out of this viewpoint in time, but that is wisdom imposing itself over what was taught.

Both science and religion offer a lens to view the world through. But while science offers critical thinking, truth and logic, religion offers fairy tales and myth.

But neither teaches wisdom.

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It's not just my view point;

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Anything you tell me comes from your view point. It comes from your interpritation of the world and past experiances. All our experiances are filtered through subconcious biases until we form our ideas about the world.

Statistics are easy to manipulate. Finding realy evidence of anything takes a lot of work, meticulous study, the kind of study few are ever going to take for something as seemingly pointless the proportion of religeous verses nonreligeous individuals in the prison population.

Just like every other controversial issue. Theism vs Athiesm is little more then some spectators cheering when they preceive that their team's scored a point.

Much like global warming. On political forums every weather report is seen as final definitive proof of a theory thats been developeing for decades.

Personal experiances are even easier to manipulate.

Although I agree it seems many members of Christian society act foolishly. They reject contraception because they think it leads to abortions, then support abstinence programs that fail 80% of the time. (I know these are the statistics I was talking about, there's no double standard I know this is just my POV). And I wonder how many teens get abortions not because they never thought of putting the kid up for adoption, or because it would be to painful (and they just hadn't though of pain killers or a C section), but because they were afraid of the humiliation of being pregnant in today's religeous society.

But thats just the Christians. Look at the Eastern religeouns. Buddism has plenty of reflection and meditation. Seems like a good jumping off point for wisdom.

Every story must come to an end.

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MeasterAuron
Anything you tell me comes from your view point. It comes from your interpretation of the world and past experiences.

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So what do you think my world view is since you have me nailed so perfectly?

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MeasterAuron
All our experiences are filtered through subconscious biases until we form our ideas about the world.

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That is exactly correct and that is also why religion can never lead to wisdom, it is an ancient outdated filter that creates false and unreasonable biases. Many of its rules are foolish and limiting, some involve harmful self denial that can later manifest as deviant behavior.

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MeasterAuron
Although I agree it seems many members of Christian society act foolishly.

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We defiantly have this view in common!

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MeasterAuron
They reject contraception because they think it leads to abortions, then support abstinence programs that fail 80% of the time. (I know these are the statistics I was talking about, there's no double standard I know this is just my POV).

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A statistic is not a point of view it is a mostly accurate determination made by a sampling of a population.

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MeasterAuron
But that's just the Christians. Look at the Eastern religious. Buddhism has plenty of reflection and meditation. Seems like a good jumping off point for wisdom.

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You must first experience to reflect.

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So what do you think my world view is since you have me nailed so perfectly?

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Who says this is unique to you. No one's safe from there own biases, not even me. Thats why I avoid confrontational or dogmatic assertions of my opinion.

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That is exactly correct and that is also why religion can never lead to wisdom, it is an ancient outdated filter that creates false and unreasonable biases. Many of its rules are foolish and limiting, some involve harmful self denial that can later manifest as deviant behavior.

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Acording to your perception.

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A statistic is not a point of view it is a mostly accurate determination made by a sampling of a population.

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I never said that statistics can be easily manipulated to make different points of view seem valid. For example an abstinence program may justify itself by showing statistics showing the low number of people who had sex before marriage durring the 1900s and claim that this proves abstinence is possible. What they don't mention is that in the 1900s people usually got married at age 18.

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You must first experience to reflect.

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Yup experiance part of Zen Buddism. Probably in a lot of other sects too.

Every story must come to an end.

I was also raised Catholic, and in my experience Frank is largely correct about Catholics or religious people being angry at sinners in general. There is an implicit us vs them mentality that is encouraged whenever a priest lectures an audience about the sinful life of those who reject God. Pope Benedict recently slammed Canada for our laws permitting abortion and same sex marriage. This is not the sort of thing that you say in a joyful state of mind or with a funny looking face. It is true that many Catholics today are only nominally religious most of the time, but those who actually practice their faith tend to be angry and jealous of people who are enjoying forbidden pleasures and are not punished for it. At least this has been my experience. It is simply human nature. Think of it as the slacking, yet top performing employee who regularly receives praise for his work, vs. the other employee who works much harder but only produces an average output and is paid a lower salary.

The Church is also much more restrictive in the third world. Catholic priests generally spend little time addressing "mainstream" sins like premarital sex or condom use in their sermons in developed nations, and favor things like abortion or gay marriage instead. Attend mass anywhere in West Africa and you will probably see a different picture.

Edited by: nickelplate416 at: 3/13/07 9:20 pm

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Too bad for them.

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Indeed but in the end people either change or die. No one's left to follow the backward tradition.

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Not a very large number. That would be what .0000001 percent?

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umm, years buddy, not people. 270 years before preists were forbidden to marry and have sex. In fact the first pope was married.

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In this country the moderates are already on the side of the fundamentalists, like I said before unless they start saying something they are letting the fundamentalists speak for them.

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And saying the fundamentalists are right about the message of the bible is going to get the moderates to come out of their shell?

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That makes no sense. How could an atheist say anything supporting a word of god?

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You say its the true message of the bible. The fundamentalists beleive the message of the bible is the word of god. You basically are just telling the fundamentalists they're right. The beliving in god part will not go away for them.

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If having more fundamentalists meant evening out the numbers it would be a positive change. It's already "tense".

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And removing the reasonable moderates will make it even worse.

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From my experience they seem to like atheists even less.

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Do you think that might have something to do with famous athiests publicly grouping them with the fundamentalists whom they hate?

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It's also noteworthy to mention most religious people in general do not like atheists for the simple reason that we dismiss out of hand their most fundamental and sacred beliefs.

That's a hard hurtle to cross.

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Here's how you cross it. Get over it and unite against the fundamentalists. Who cares if you don't agree with them. What you do agree on is the fundamentalists are a very bad thing.

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There is already unity between all the silent moderates and the fundamentalists.

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No not really. Your creating one because the idea of putting aside differences to unite against a common enemy just isn't part of human nature.

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Then the moderates need to speak out, right now it's hard for us to tell one from the other.

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Maybe thats because you don't bother to distinguish between the two thinking the polarization approach will work better.

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It's different for every person, that's why restriction of behavior is such a limitation. and it might not be possible for everyone.

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Ok. What do we even mean by wisdom?

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It is still a limitation; some people need certain experiences to understand them.

How can one truly understand loss if they have never lost? How can they then empathize with the person who has lost if they do not understand loss?

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They're taught to avoid attachment, they're not expected to sucede. I imagine Zen would allow for some experimental attachment in order to understand loss, part of zen is that you learn from experiances rather then second hand sources.

Every story must come to an end.

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MeasterAuron
Indeed but in the end people either change or die. No one's left to follow the backward tradition.

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Well there you have it, problem solved.

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MeasterAuron
umm, years buddy, not people. 270 years before priests were forbidden to marry and have sex. In fact the first pope was married.

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Its still less than 1 percent of the church's history, and why the sudden unhealthy backwards step?

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MeasterAuron
And saying the fundamentalists are right about the message of the bible is going to get the moderates to come out of their shell?

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It should, any reasonable person should be horrified by what is written and recommended as behavior in that book.

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MeasterAuron
You say it's the true message of the bible.

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I am also demonstrating the inherent flaws in the bible, showing them that it is not the word of god and that it is no more praiseworthy than the book "101 uses for dead babies".

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MeasterAuron
The fundamentalists believe the message of the bible is the word of god. You basically are just telling the fundamentalists they're right.

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Your forgetting about the part where I mention that the bible is complete horse poo.

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MeasterAuron
The believing in god part will not go away for them.

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Actually these arguments have shocked and ashamed many moderates into taking a second look at their religion, there is not much that can be done with the fundamentalists.

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MeasterAuron
And removing the reasonable moderates will make it even worse.

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How so? Right now their numbers are strengthening the fundamentalists, less numbers equals less power.

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MeasterAuron
Do you think that might have something to do with famous atheists publicly grouping them with the fundamentalists whom they hate?

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Probably not, this tension is decades old. If anything the cultural acceptance of atheists is slightly better now than 10 or 20 years ago.

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MeasterAuron
Here's how you cross it. Get over it and unite against the fundamentalists. Who cares if you don't agree with them. What you do agree on is the fundamentalists are a very bad thing.

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I don't have an issue with it; I can cooperate with anyone when necessary. Some of my closest friends are Christians. But being accepted by them has been a serious problem.

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MeasterAuron
No not really. You're creating one because the idea of putting aside differences to unite against a common enemy just isn't part of human nature.

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Again this is not a problem I have personally but the acceptance by the Christian groups is the hurtle.

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MeasterAuron
Maybe that's because you don't bother to distinguish between the two thinking the polarization approach will work better.

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Maybe.

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MeasterAuron
Ok. What do we even mean by wisdom?

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Worldliness, well rounded knowledge, insight, empathy, self understanding, discipline, respect, love, awareness, compassion, character, purpose, morality, tolerance and the willingness to fight for your values.

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MeasterAuron
They're taught to avoid attachment; they're not expected to succeed. I imagine Zen would allow for some experimental attachment in order to understand loss, part of Zen is that you learn from experiences rather then second hand sources.

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Again you are focusing on one rather obscure religion, which still enforces certain limitations over accepted behavior.

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Nickelplate
I was also raised Catholic, and in my experience Frank is largely correct about Catholics or religious people being angry at sinners in general. There is an implicit us vs. them mentality that is encouraged whenever a priest lectures an audience about the sinful life of those who reject God.

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Thanks Nickelplate!

It's nice to see that I'm not alone in my observations.

I also want to add a few important elements to my wisdom definition.

Resourcefulness, imagination, adaptability, acceptance, flexibility (mental), contemplation, and free thought.

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