Is Obama a Socialist?

Kevin · Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:09 pm

bleachededen wrote:


	Frank 013 wrote: Chris summed up my thoughts on socialism quite nicely… I do not want handouts… I can earn my own keep… If someone else cannot then they deserve less… plain and simple.

This is an unfair generalization.

I doubt very many disagree with Frank 013s statement that those who can't earn their keep deserve less than those who do manage to look out for themselves. I mean, really... unless you're an actual socialist (or perhaps swayed by some other equally foreign viewpoint) it should make sense for someone who, say, holds down a full-time job to have more things than does someone who begs on the street. I think the negative reaction to Frank 013s comment stems from the observation that so often those who say similar things fail to say what they are really thinking. It's a matter of speaking in code words. Look at this topic's subject header. So, it's left then for the audience to fill in the blanks. What's been filled in, it seems to me, is that what was meant was that there should be no social safety net of any kind. It's not that they deserve less than others but that they deserve nothing at all. What's more, any children they may have deserve nothing at all either beyond that which they are able to procure it for themselves. It's the logical extension of Reagan's line of attack against the Welfare Queen. Well, I think that's a reasonable interpretation of what was meant. I am of your general viewpoint and against Frank 013s; but let's acknowledge that if a cartoonish question of socialistic intent can legitimately apply to Obama then capitalism should be equally ubiquitous. Is Hugo Chavez a capitalist? I think the evidence more favors the latter over the former being the case. The following is hardly evidence of any kind but I'll say it anyway that if Obama was actually a socialist I'm pretty sure I'd like him more than I currently do. But now with Obama a socialist and Chavez a capitalist it changes things.

A co-worker recently informed me that the bag of chips I was eating had increased in price due to the minimum wage haven been raised a short time back. "You don't get anything for nothing!" or words to that effect he said to me. I thought it was a reasonable statement just as I think I can earn my own keep… If someone else cannot then they deserve less seems a reasonable one. But I thought then about the previous decade + and how the minimum wage hadn't risen and how inflation rose anyway, along with the price of chips, and told him that he was just making it up. I do consider a lot of the right wing talk to make sense at first glance... but seldom do I find it capable of holding water. It usually dilutes, in the economic sphere, to the idea that poor prople have too much money and too many things and rich people have too little money and too few things. I doubt the wealth concentration of the USA can go much farther... Venezuela had revolutions over this very issue. And now look, there's a capitalist installed as its president.

I think the only thing for which a person should be rewarded, if we are to have a discriminatory system at all in an otherwise perfect imaginary world, is effort.

Penelope · Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:15 am


	Quote: Bleachededen said: It's never as simple as "I can do it myself."

The whole of the way our societies are structured means that we rely on one another to a great degree. We rely on the farmer, the milkman, the butcher, the refuse collector. We rely on our local goverments to keep us organised thus. In fact a social structure only operates through our own feelings of obligation to one another.

We could attempt to be completely self-sufficient, but our lives would certainly be less comfortable.

I think the difference is that some of us feel obligated to make allowances for peoples' failings, probably because we are only too aware of our own potential deficiencies.

I heard a debate recently on the radio, where people were discussing the benefits of having our water supply metered and only paying for the water we actually used per household. That would mean that a poor household with a lot of children would pay much more than a fairly wealthy old lady living alone in a mansion. One such old lady telephoned into the programme and said, 'I don't mind paying water rates (as we do at present) and contributing to the water supply of a larger (and poorer family). We should all help and look after one another, that is our responsibility, that is how I was taught to live'. Another man telephoned, and said, he didn't care about the poorer families, why should he pay for their water? And this about sums up the difference - it is a 'choice' about how one should behave.

Now, I might not agree with that man's choice, but I would fight to the death to maintain his having a choice........and there is the dilema!!! :cry:

bleachededen · Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:38 pm

"The rich get richer and the poor get poorer."
Not entirely sure where I heard that, but it sounds about right.

Kevin · Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:48 am

Everybody Knows by Leonard Cohen (co-written with Sharon Robinson). This is the first work I think of anyway... found on the album "I'm Your Man"

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows that the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight is fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Suzanne · Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:27 am


	Penelope wrote: That would mean that a poor household with a lot of children would pay much more than a fairly wealthy old lady living alone in a mansion. One such old lady telephoned into the programme and said, 'I don't mind paying water rates (as we do at present) and contributing to the water supply of a larger (and poorer family). We should all help and look after one another, that is our responsibility, that is how I was taught to live'. Another man telephoned, and said, he didn't care about the poorer families, why should he pay for their water? And this about sums up the difference - it is a 'choice' about how one should behave.

I can see both sides of this. At first I thought, what a creaper this guy is. But, what he might be saying is, "Why should I pay for all the children you chose to produce that you cannot afford". On the other hand, if helping out with something like a water bill enables that family to afford all those children, I'm with the old lady. Now, with an electric bill, I don't think I could be that charitable.

Many elderly residents in my town are upset with the high property taxes due to school funding. They do not have children in the school system, why should they pay the extra taxes? I'm like the old lady on this issue. We all live in the same community, lets maintain the whole community. There have been many proposals made by the schools that would raise taxes even further, I have to be honest, I have voted no to many of them, and I have two kids in the public schools. But again, I can see the point made by the elderly residents, many are on a fixed income. Should families with children help the elderly who may lose their homes due to high property taxes, which are high due to the public schools? I could never be a mayor!

bleachededen · Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:14 pm


	Kevin wrote: Everybody Knows by Leonard Cohen (co-written with Sharon Robinson). This is the first work I think of anyway... found on the album "I'm Your Man" Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows that the war is over Everybody knows that the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight is fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows

That would be it. I thought of it after I'd posted and left the computer. :lol:

I love Leonard Cohen.

Penelope · Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:30 pm

Suzanne said:


	Quote: Should families with children help the elderly who may lose their homes due to high property taxes, which are high due to the public schools? I could never be a mayor!

LOL - Suzanne- I agree- I always feel sorry for our Prime Ministers, even when they are not of my own political persuasion. Rotten Job.....

Our education system is funded by central government, although of course, there are private schools (which confusingly we call 'public schools' - where the parents pay all the fees). Our state schools though often have 'covenanting schemes' where parents pay a regular amount to help towards expenses. This means that state schools in wealthy areas have lots of amenities, computers, sports equipment etc.....and inner city schools where parents are usually not so well off, are at a disadvantage as they cannot afford the extra equipment etc. Once, when my kids were at school, I was Secretary of the PTA and suggested our village school adopt an inner-city school and help with funding. I was very embarrassed when I was almost hissed and booed and told that my Socialism was showing....Well, as I have said, I'm quite proud of my Socialism. Of course, there is always the attitude that Socialism is corporate altruism for those of us who don't want to be responsible personally.

Penelope · Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:35 pm

I thought of this song Kevin, when Eden quoted that phrase:-

Ev'ry morning, ev'ry evening, ain't we got fun?
Not much money, oh but honey, ain't we got fun?
The rent's unpaid dear, we haven't a car;
But anyway, dear, we'll stay as we are.

In the winter, in the summer, don't we have fun?
Times are glum and getting glummer, still we have fun.
There's nothing surer: the rich get rich and the poor get poorer.
In the meantime, in between time, ain't we got fun?

bleachededen · Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:48 pm

Yet another good song. BT members have good taste in music as well as literature. :lol:

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