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seespotrun2008 wrote:
That is true. And education is a privilege. College is becoming so expensive that only certain people get to go.
Do you rhink that secondary education should be a right? I'm not specifically talking about traditional colleges, or exclusively anyway, but more in the mold of trade schools. I just don't see the benefit, to America, of having a relatively unlearned population. But really, I'm not sure what good it would do because unlike the previous suggestion made that workers who lose their jobs are themselves to blame for not having the necessary skills I see it as a matter of their already being overqualified. It's the now famous race to the bottom where nothing matters but corporate profits. The jobs are intentionally made to be as thought-free as they possibly they can so that anyone anywhere can apply the necessary grease to keep the gears moving.
With only so many IT, accounting, finance, and service jobs to go around it has become apparent by now, hasn't it, that America is strongest when it makes its own basic goods? It might not make GE stronger... the key then isn't more education but to utilize the amount we already somehow have.
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I agree that if a person does something that takes more skill or responsibility that they should get paid more.
I'm not sure that I do. And I'm just talking out loud here. It seems that the reward can be in the job itself. Actually, I'd trade off skill for engagement most anytime. It's this in it for the money mentality that is behind - well srly it's the root of all evil, huh? A skilled artist will most likely continue to do what he loves to do. Indeed, in this scenario, arguably, he'd be more likely to continue in his craft. A teacher who wants to teach would most likely continue teaching. An accountant who likes to make things tidy would most likely continue with her books. It's what they like to do.
At a time when nearly all political persuasions are under the impression that America has gone seriously wrong during some point in our recent past it's worth a thought that perhaps it's better to stop trying to fix the system.
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If there is a way to make it fair I am more than willing to listen.
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Politics is a continuum, from a pure focus on wealth creation at the right wing end (capitalism) to a pure focus on wealth distribution at the left wing end (socialism). Practical politicians such as Obama balance in the middle. In a world where most people live on less than about three dollars a day, the USA is fabulously wealthy, and has achieved this through its focus on creation of wealth through individual freedom. However, a pure focus on wealth creation is not politically stable, as it tosses the 'failures' on the scrap heap and eventually comes to resemble slavery. The social tensions that result undermine the goal of increased growth, forcing the rich to waste money on security and leading to rebellious tendencies among the poor. More equal sharing of wealth produces a more harmonious society, and is a better investment in security than weapons.
The claim that the market is intrinsically just is wrong. It ignores the failure to put a proper price on what are called externalities, the public goods which are used by firms but not owned by them. For example, industrial firms can wreck the air and water and biodiversity because they get them for a low price or free, and the cost is paid by the whole of society. This is the basis for regulation of capitalism by rule of law.
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seespotrun2008 wrote:
[I agree that if a person does something that takes more skill or responsibility that they should get paid more. But is a Hollywood actor really doing something that takes more skill or responsibility than a teacher? It would be nice if everything was truly fair but it is not. If there is a way to make it fair I am more than willing to listen.
I work in the human services field, too. And I'm lucky enough to be paid pretty well in comparison to what people in the field get in other areas. (Loudoun County, VA, is the wealthiest in the country.) But I'm never gonna be rich, and I think this is quite fair. I had certain choices avaliable to me, and I didn't pick an occupation in which there is a lot of money. That's what it comes down to: is there money in it? The Hollywood actor might not have a skill that is any more impressive than a social worker's, but there is beaucoup money in the movie business. It doesn't seem that this is a matter of fairness at all, unless we want to say that it's unfair that millions of people like to spend $10 on movie tickets.
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Quote:
Do you rhink that secondary education should be a right? I'm not specifically talking about traditional colleges, or exclusively anyway, but more in the mold of trade schools. I just don't see the benefit, to America, of having a relatively unlearned population. But really, I'm not sure what good it would do because unlike the previous suggestion made that workers who lose their jobs are themselves to blame for not having the necessary skills I see it as a matter of their already being overqualified. It's the now famous race to the bottom where nothing matters but corporate profits. The jobs are intentionally made to be as thought-free as they possibly they can so that anyone anywhere can apply the necessary grease to keep the gears moving.
Yes. I think that education, healthcare, food, and housing are basic human rights. It is unacceptable that we live in such a wealthy country and yet people still do not have a place to go for the night or the ability to see a doctor. I agree with you that many jobs are being made that require very little thought. Unfortunately, many organizations prefer an uneducated workforce. Bill Gates has a stake in education because he needs the people with education. But keeping people uneducated benefit places like Wal-mart or McDonalds.
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With only so many IT, accounting, finance, and service jobs to go around it has become apparent by now, hasn't it, that America is strongest when it makes its own basic goods? It might not make GE stronger... the key then isn't more education but to utilize the amount we already somehow have. I'm not sure that I do. And I'm just talking out loud here. It seems that the reward can be in the job itself. Actually, I'd trade off skill for engagement most anytime. It's this in it for the money mentality that is behind - well srly it's the root of all evil, huh? A skilled artist will most likely continue to do what he loves to do. Indeed, in this scenario, arguably, he'd be more likely to continue in his craft. A teacher who wants to teach would most likely continue teaching. An accountant who likes to make things tidy would most likely continue with her books. It's what they like to do. At a time when nearly all political persuasions are under the impression that America has gone seriously wrong during some point in our recent past it's worth a thought that perhaps it's better to stop trying to fix the system.
So what do you think?
I am very community based. I think that means that we are continually trying to improve the community and be accountable to each other. I think that our individualism is great in some cases but it is very overdone for my taste. When we allow corporations to treat people like property, fight against basic human rights (like healthcare), destroy the environment, and refuse to be accountable to our communities there is something not right. And I don’t think we should give up on trying to fix it.
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I work in the human services field, too. And I'm lucky enough to be paid pretty well in comparison to what people in the field get in other areas. (Loudoun County, VA, is the wealthiest in the country.) But I'm never gonna be rich, and I think this is quite fair. I had certain choices avaliable to me, and I didn't pick an occupation in which there is a lot of money.
Good for you, DWill. You are making a choice to contribute to your community.
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That's what it comes down to: is there money in it?
I disagree. There are more important things than money. There is human relationship and a choice not to contribute to human suffering. I am not saying that all human suffering is caused by economic injustice but I think that a good majority of it is. And economic justice means sharing with others so that we can all have our basic needs met. It means all of us making a choice as a community to give up some of our own personal resources so that everyone benefits.
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seespotrun2008 wrote:
Good for you, DWill. You are making a choice to contribute to your community.
Quote:
That's what it comes down to: is there money in it?
I disagree. There are more important things than money.
I think you misunderstood DWill. I think he only meant to reflect the current state of reality and not making a value judgment or a for or against statement. And I do think that money is the central driving force behind much of what goes on in the USA today -- it is the bottom line of bottom lines. What I believe is that most of what happens in a day is in someway influenced by big corporations, which are only concerned with earning a profit. I realize that I just made a very big generalization by using the word most, but consider an average day. Breakfast? Do you or anyone in your household eat breakfast cereal? This is not a food grown on your local farm. Getting dressed, how do those pants fit? Great everywhere but the waistband, which budges out a bit in the back? Too bad, off the rack clothing is not manufactured to fit you or any particular person -- just some stab at someone's calculation of an average. Same for the shoes that almost fit perfectly, except where they squeeze your big toe and give you a blister. You haven't even left home yet.
_________________ Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads ~ Henry David Thoreau
“People usually consider walking on water or in thin air a miracle. But I think the real miracle is not to walk either on water or in thin air, but to walk on earth. Every day we are engaged in a miracle which we don’t even recognize: a blue sky, white clouds, green leaves, the black, curious eyes of a child — our own two eyes. All is a miracle.” -Thich Nhat Hahn
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I completely agree with seespotrun that there are more important things in life than money. That is partly why people choose to make a living in fields that won't enrich them. To then complain that we aren't paid as much as we are worth seems inconsistent, although I realize there is a basis for expecting adequate pay for those who work in non-revenue producing fields. Another thing I should make clear is that I think, to borrow from Churchill, that capitalism is a bad system, but it is the best system we have yet devised. This means that worth in the marketplace as our bottom line is inevitable, if not always good.
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Saffron wrote:
I think you misunderstood DWill. I think he only meant to reflect the current state of reality and not making a value judgment or a for or against statement.
DWill wrote:
This means that worth in the marketplace as our bottom line is inevitable, if not always good.
Ooops, I guess he did mean to make a value judgment.....I think I should stay in my own backyard when posting!
_________________ Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads ~ Henry David Thoreau
“People usually consider walking on water or in thin air a miracle. But I think the real miracle is not to walk either on water or in thin air, but to walk on earth. Every day we are engaged in a miracle which we don’t even recognize: a blue sky, white clouds, green leaves, the black, curious eyes of a child — our own two eyes. All is a miracle.” -Thich Nhat Hahn
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Quote:
To then complain that we aren't paid as much as we are worth seems inconsistent, although I realize there is a basis for expecting adequate pay for those who work in non-revenue producing fields.
I don't think it is inconsistent at all. People who work in social and human services are contributing a great deal to the community. Yet a lot of people in those fields are not even paid an "adequate" living wage.
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Another thing I should make clear is that I think, to borrow from Churchill, that capitalism is a bad system, but it is the best system we have yet devised. This means that worth in the marketplace as our bottom line is inevitable, if not always good.
Perhaps. But I think that what we have now is capitalism out of contol which is definitely not working. I think that laws and regulations for businesses are appropriate. We have a right as a community to hold those organizations accountable to us. I also think that businesses as well as individuals have a responsibility to contribute to the community. Not that I think that that means that people should contribute at the expense of themselves. If you cannot afford to feed yourself and your family I think that you have every right to feed yourself first. But those of us who can contribute should do so. That is just my two cents, or three, or four....
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Churchill also said that we should have ten workers for every job. Meaning: more desperation would help keep the serfs in line, and serve to remind them of their place in society.
I would say that capitalism is the best system we have come up with so far, with the caveat that we include all updates and amendments since the ‘30s, including: social security, labour laws, banking regulation, universal education, health regulation, human rights legislation, and all else hard fought for over the years, against the furious resistance of the entrenched establishment.
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Can you imagine what it would cost to mail a letter if we had to use ONLY Fed-Ex or UPS and they did not have the competition of the US Post Office? Same is true for health care....the insurance companies have a monopoly.
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I would like to defend Sir Winston Churchill here.
I think he has been misquoted on this thread:-
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Sir Winston Churchill - Hansard, November 11, 1947 - Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
_________________ Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try. Dr. Seuss
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Frank said:
Quote:
Chris summed up my thoughts on socialism quite nicely… I do not want handouts… I can earn my own keep… If someone else cannot then they deserve less… plain and simple.
This is why there is absolutely no point in discussing politics.
Frank, yours is the 'Conservative' viewpoint. The law of the jungle- every man for himself.....I'm alright Jack, to hell with the rest of you!!
In the light of history - quite valid...... if we were all dealt the same hand in life. BUT some people get a a very raw deal.
Some of us, just cannot accept your way of thinking. Some of us believe, we must all help one another.....
Some of us believe that help can only be effective, if it is 'corporate' help.
Some of us believe, that though it has been shown not to work, it is still the only system worth fighting for.
Imagine, me and Sir Winston, on the same side for once!!!!
_________________ Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try. Dr. Seuss
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Penelope,
You are an intelligent lady. We really don't all get dealt the same hand in life and we should want others to be given the same chances we have had. Obama is being smashed for receiving the Nobel Peace Prize when, in America, we should be grateful that he is easing the tense international relations we have had the past 8 years.
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leona wrote:
Penelope,
You are an intelligent lady. We really don't all get dealt the same hand in life and we should want others to be given the same chances we have had. Obama is being smashed for receiving the Nobel Peace Prize when, in America, we should be grateful that he is easing the tense international relations we have had the past 8 years.
Nice points, Leona!
_________________ Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads ~ Henry David Thoreau
“People usually consider walking on water or in thin air a miracle. But I think the real miracle is not to walk either on water or in thin air, but to walk on earth. Every day we are engaged in a miracle which we don’t even recognize: a blue sky, white clouds, green leaves, the black, curious eyes of a child — our own two eyes. All is a miracle.” -Thich Nhat Hahn
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