Is Hell Dead?--More About Rob Bell

DWill · Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:05 pm

The April 25 cover story in Time is titled "Is Hell Dead?," by John Meachem. It concerns Bell's book, Love Wins. Altogether, the article presents an encouraging picture. The fact that Bell is the pastor of an evangelical megachurch in Michigan suggests that we don't need to assume a standard set of beliefs apply to all evangelicals. Mean-spirited exclusivism could be on the way out, as far as the doctrine of punishment for non-belief is concerned.


	John Meachem wrote: Particularly galling to conservative Christian critics is that Love Wins is not an attack from outside the walls of the Evangelical city but a mutiny from within — a rebellion led by a charismatic, popular and savvy pastor with a following. Is Bell's Christianity — less judgmental, more fluid, open to questioning the most ancient of assumptions — on an inexorable rise? "I have long wondered if there is a massive shift coming in what it means to be a Christian," Bell says. "Something new is in the air."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... z1K1MsNNnv

Dexter · Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:07 pm

I hope it's part of a trend, but I'll believe it when I see more. Other churches seems pretty protective of their turf, as it has been throughout history.

I would think that if Christians really believe that God is benevolent, then isn't Bell's view the only one that makes sense?

Frank 013 · Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:04 am

It’s funny… every single Christian who knows me well believes that I will get into heaven despite my disbelief… my girl friend, my mom and all of my religious friends agree that if heaven exists that there is a place there for me.

I think my girlfriend said it best… She said “You are a better person than any I have ever met… including all of the religious people I know. If God were to deny you a place in heaven than he is not a being worthy of worship… that is not the loving and forgiving God I believe in”

Later

DWill · Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:13 am

There is some polling data on this question of who gets into heaven. The majority of Christians don't believe that eternal salvation depends on saying you believe the right things--but a pretty large percentage does say this. If Bell is right, that percentage is declining, and hurray for that.
http://oproject.wordpress.com/2009/01/2 ... to-heaven/

I find the exclusivist, orthodox attitude towards people of other religions or of no relgion to be revolting. It bothers me a lot more than creationist belief.

Azrael · Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:00 pm

Where is heaven? Where is hell? No one can prove either exist. So whats the point of the thread? Some loon writes an article "Is Hell Dead?" And he cannot prove the place even exist....logical fallacy.

DWill · Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:34 pm

We have to co-exist, that's the point. I find it a lot easier to co-exist with Christians who aren't thinking thoughts that seem evil, such as that Gandhi is burning in hell right now.

Dawn · Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:38 pm


	Dexter wrote: I would think that if Christians really believe that God is benevolent, then isn't Bell's view the only one that makes sense?

Except for the truth that God is not only a God of absolute Goodness, but also of absolute Justice. Would one want to live eternally in a place where injustice was never resolved? Where heinous crimes were neither prevented nor punished? This would not be heaven but hell (or perhaps earth as some know it). Evil would reign. This is the same reason life on earth is not something everyone wants to do forever...

Azrael · Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:49 am

Dawn wrote:


	Dexter wrote: I would think that if Christians really believe that God is benevolent, then isn't Bell's view the only one that makes sense?

Except for the truth that God is not only a God of absolute Goodness, but also of absolute Justice. Would one want to live eternally in a place where injustice was never resolved? Where heinous crimes were neither prevented nor punished? This would not be heaven but hell (or perhaps earth as some know it). Evil would reign. This is the same reason life on earth is not something everyone wants to do forever...

Prove God exist?

Dexter · Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:09 am

Dawn wrote:


	Dexter wrote: I would think that if Christians really believe that God is benevolent, then isn't Bell's view the only one that makes sense?

Except for the truth that God is not only a God of absolute Goodness, but also of absolute Justice. Would one want to live eternally in a place where injustice was never resolved? Where heinous crimes were neither prevented nor punished? This would not be heaven but hell (or perhaps earth as some know it). Evil would reign. This is the same reason life on earth is not something everyone wants to do forever...

But we're talking about the belief that good people will go to Hell if they don't acknowledge Jesus.

DWill · Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:16 am

Dawn wrote:


	Dexter wrote: I would think that if Christians really believe that God is benevolent, then isn't Bell's view the only one that makes sense?

Except for the truth that God is not only a God of absolute Goodness, but also of absolute Justice. Would one want to live eternally in a place where injustice was never resolved? Where heinous crimes were neither prevented nor punished? This would not be heaven but hell (or perhaps earth as some know it). Evil would reign. This is the same reason life on earth is not something everyone wants to do forever...

But the idea that God, like some petty king, would reserve his rewards for those who say they worship him, is the opposite of justice, and as I already said, revolting. If God is a perfect being, who would be far above showing any of our human need to have an ego stroked, then surely he would be pleased by any show of goodness. He wouldn't care about the cultural wrinkles that constitute the different religions. These would be as irrelevant as Microsoft users vs. Apple users.

Believing that our group is the best and has the only true view of things, like how to get by death, is one of the oldest games of humanity and its least respectable one.

Frank 013 · Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:31 am


	Quote: Dawn Except for the truth that God is not only a God of absolute Goodness, but also of absolute Justice. Would one want to live eternally in a place where injustice was never resolved? Where heinous crimes were neither prevented nor punished?

Many of the people you would see punished have committed no crime, they are good, moral people, but simply came to believe differently than you did… some of these people would readily put their lives on the line (even die) to protect you, and your beliefs, despite their differing views…

Tell me this, in your opinion, is it truly justified to condemn these people to eternal suffering?

Later

Dawn · Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:28 am


	Quote: He wouldn't care about the cultural wrinkles that constitute the different religions. These would be as irrelevant as Microsoft users vs. Apple users.

Is that your idea of irrelevance! That phrase does not compute(no pun intended) at our house :lol:

Just teasing.

----
But really, this discussion contains a whole bunch of reasoning without specifics. Neither I nor you are entitled to judge who's in Hell or not. God is the judge and He is just. He looks at the heart. We cannot see that well! Talking about 'good' people in general is way too general. Asking about specific individuals is still not useful. There is one sure-fire way to live with God and that is the reconciliation offered through His Son. If God makes exceptions for other God-fearing people whose knowledge of Jesus is in complete, that's His call. His protocol for His people is to proclaim the Good News of a sure way to God through Jesus having paid their way. To object to God's protocol is... well, it's arrogant, assuming we know better and are more moral than God Himself. Of course there are questions. You claim to live with uncertainty. Why must you demand certainty on this issue and not take any action on the part that is certain?

DWill · Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:39 am

Dawn wrote:


	Quote: He wouldn't care about the cultural wrinkles that constitute the different religions. These would be as irrelevant as Microsoft users vs. Apple users.

Is that your idea of irrelevance! That phrase does not compute(no pun intended) at our house :lol:

Just teasing.

----
But really, this discussion contains a whole bunch of reasoning without specifics. Neither I nor you are entitled to judge who's in Hell or not. God is the judge and He is just. He looks at the heart. We cannot see that well! Talking about 'good' people in general is way too general. Asking about specific individuals is still not useful. There is one sure-fire way to live with God and that is the reconciliation offered through His Son. If God makes exceptions for other God-fearing people whose knowledge of Jesus is in complete, that's His call. His protocol for His people is to proclaim the Good News of a sure way to God through Jesus having paid their way. To object to God's protocol is... well, it's arrogant, assuming we know better and are more moral than God Himself. Of course there are questions. You claim to live with uncertainty. Why must you demand certainty on this issue and not take any action on the part that is certain?

I really think you're making this too complicated, Dawn. My strong conviction is that in certain cases, we need to call a spade a spade, as far as religious thinking goes. Just because a belief is part of someone's religion is no reason to shield that person from criticism for believing it. (And note that you yourself believe that to be true, in the case of other religions.) The "new atheists" have done us a service by removing the privileged status of religion. All I have said is that the belief that a god, any god, might consign those who don't "believe" in him or it to an eternal punishment is in itself an immoral belief. I would think that this is an easy statement to either agree or disagree with.

Interbane · Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:52 am


	Quote: To object to God's protocol is... well, it's arrogant

There is a difference in objecting to god's will, and being indifferent to it. There is nothing that objectively points to the existence of a god. I'm not guilty of anything, even though I'm aware of this truth. So why would I be punished for all of eternity?

You say that god is just also. So which one is it? Will I go to hell for living a good life but not believing in Jesus, or is god just and good? They are mutually exclusive. There is no mistaking what is said in the bible. There is also no mistaking that to punish someone for eternity for no crime is exceedingly immoral. This point cannot be avoided.

The only option, one I'd guarantee Stahrwe would jump on, would be to say logic doesn't apply here. That I could go to hell, but god is still good. Of course, this is wishful thinking, detached from the way the universe works. To many people, it's as obvious as day that this is a fantasy. But to others, their conviction blinds them to how impossible their beliefs are. If you already believe in the impossible, it becomes redefined. God can do the impossible. So if you believe in god, not only is the impossible possible, but it's expected.

The immunity to falsification is beautiful.

I've realized while studying religion that it's more and more like an organism than a belief. Certain phenotypes have been trimmed, certain characteristics have become widespread. An evolutionary algorithm applied over 2,000 years with the lone ultimate goal of being believed by as many people as possible. Of course the teleological reference is just to help understanding. It is an evolved product of our minds, suited to be believed by the human mind in spite of being false.

geo · Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:41 am


	Dawn wrote: There is one sure-fire way to live with God and that is the reconciliation offered through His Son. If God makes exceptions for other God-fearing people whose knowledge of Jesus is in complete, that's His call. His protocol for His people is to proclaim the Good News of a sure way to God through Jesus having paid their way. To object to God's protocol is... well, it's arrogant, assuming we know better and are more moral than God Himself. Of course there are questions. You claim to live with uncertainty. Why must you demand certainty on this issue and not take any action on the part that is certain?

It's interesting how Dawn has latched on to the fundamentalist Christian movement only then to completely absolve herself from its beliefs. In The True Believer, Hoffer discussed the propensity of those who join mass movements to want to be free of the burden of freedom. I think Dawn has chosen to join the fundamentalist cult precisely so she doesn't have to think about these vexing problems of morality. She has been duped to leave it all to "God" without the ability to see that "God" is an entirely subjective belief. In surrendering her will to a larger movement, she no longer seeks an objective reality or to try to think for herself. She has become a soldier in a cause.

"Unless a man has the talents to make something of himself, freedom is an irksome burden...We join a mass movement to escape from individual responsibility, or, in the words of an ardent young Nazi, 'to be free from freedom.' It was not sheer hypocrisy when the rank-and-file Nazis declared themselves not guilty of all the enormities they had committed. They considered themselves cheated and maligned when made to shoulder responsibility for obeying orders. Had they not joined the Nazi movement in order to be free from responsibility?"

There's a phrase that captures this mentality, "ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die." It comes from a poem by Tennyson called "Charge of the Light Brigade." Here's one stanza:

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

The soldiers are just following orders. They don't have time to consider the validity or consequences of their actions. Basically the phrase means "We don't ask questions, we must do what we are told. So "ours is not to reason why" has become a cliché for when we have to just follow orders, even if we know the orders to be flawed or ill-conceived.

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