Is Capitalism the Best Economic System?

ZachSylvanus

Think about medication driven to low cost by competition, and safety devices proliferating because public demand wants a car that could keep a dozen eggs safe in an impact. Look at the results of the X Prize, which is revolutionizing the way humanity will reach space, or the various chemical firms improving sanitary techniques without necessitating antibiotics, and the development of alternative fuel sources to eke profit by edging out Oil.

We could also look at the Soviet system of managed labor, where in some cases putting actual effort in was just as fruitful as doing the bare minimum. Eventually this catches on, and you get products of dubious workmanship. Why work for money when not working gives you the same amount?

Tiarella

I thought Jeremy was saying that competition is part of human nature, but I gather you believe he was saying that 'in the natural order of things the nobility (blue bloods) own capital and the peasants provide labor.' ? Of course I may be misunderstanding what you think Jeremy meant.

Let's ask him! We've already got two very different interpretations of his post.

Hey, Jeremy, what did you mean when you said "The fundamentals of capitalism are not an economic system at all, but an integral part of human nature"? What fundamentals of capitalism are an integral part of human nature?

Jeremy1952

It is human nature to strive for what betters yourself, and your children, and your siblings, and your blood relatives in proportion to their relatedness to you. Maybe some people some of the time are willing to strive for the general good of mankind. Maybe. But not enough to build a system on.

What motivates most people, most of the time, is biological self interest. We've seen it writ large and small in our lives and in our history... what did the communists do? Why, they wrote special rules for themselves, built dachas for the party officials, etc. What did the church do? Confiscated the best food and luxurys for the bishops and popes. And what do individuals around you do? What do YOU do? It isn't a moral judgement - it's simply an obvious part of our lives. We strive harder when the fruits are to be our own. We mow our own lawn, and litter in the park.

I object to the "capitalism is evil" crowd not because I think a preponderance of Rich White Men in our society is good, or even inevitable. I object because denial is not a good way to fix a problem. Acknowledge that self-interest is in our nature; acknowledge that the law of supply and demand is in our nature, and THEN deal with the consequences. The alternative, the empty railing, leads to faild collectives, starving communists, extinct shakers.

If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984

Timothy Schoonover

Tiarella

Jeremy is wrong about how we ought to proceed with economics no matter how you choose to interpret his statements. The fact that self-interest is 'built into' human nature has nothing to do with how we ought to evaluate capitalism regardless of how true that statement is as a universal assertion. To say that we are all born capitalists is no different than saying that we are all born totalitarians or that all behavior is motivated by self-interest. According to that logic, those who proclaim the evils of totalitarianism and champion democracy are are in 'denial' of human nature. What Jeremy fails to realize is that self-interest and economic equality are not at odds. The fundamental premise behind democracy is that self-interest is better represented through the whole than through the privileged few. The same is true of Socialism. Jeremy's insights on human nature have little to do with the validity of that fundamental premise. It is a tactic used to obsure the relavent questions and incapacitate the minds of those who ought most to ask them.

Jeremy1952

Where exactly did I say how we should proceed?

If you make yourself really small, you can externalize virtually everything. Daniel Dennett, 1984

Naturyl

After 84 posts with good points made all around, isn't it clear how we should proceed? We need to get over our own preferences and biases and work together in a bipartisan way to craft an economic and social system based on the best features of both capitalism and socialism. Of course, it's always a lot easier to just beat the shit out of each other verbally while assuring ourselves that we are on the right side of the issue, whatever side that many happen to be. Actually working together to build something that works for everyone is a hell of a lot harder. However, until we do just that, we're going to hear no end to the shouting and grumbling from both extremes.

What we need is really quite simple. Free markets supported by a strong social safety net. The best of both worlds. It isn't impossible to do this. Most of Europe has already put such a system in place. American could do the same, if people would quit being so hard-headed. In general, Americans need to get over themselves and get back to the business of building a great society.

RickU

Very nicely said Naturyl...and technically the system is already in place in the US. The US is far from a truly capitalist nation.

Neither Capitalism or Socialism themselves are good enough on their own merit. Both require too much of individuals. Pure capitalism relies on the wealthy to not exploit the labor. Socialism requires the highly skilled, intelligent and hard working to disregard the lazy, injured or stupid people.

The US is in dire need of a full economic governmental reform. A major housecleaning of Reagan-like proportions. (In this I'm referring to the tax cuts that were pushed through...I've recently read that the mean tax rate in the late 70's was at 70%)...we need to spend the gov't's money in a much more efficient manner. I'm an individualist at heart, but I recognize social needs and sympathize. I still would prefer not to have to give up more than 20% of my income to fund the administration of my Country/State/County.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:03 pm Post subject: Beyond Capitalism Pt. 1

Beyond Capitalism by Michael Albert

Quote:
Beyond Capitalism

To build and take an anti capitalist movement forward, as per the title of this book, we need to reject capitalism but also to advocate a new system in its place and to act in light of not only our critique but also the strategic and organizational implications of our goals. What is a viable anti-capitalist vision? What immediate strategic implications can we draw from it?

Participatory Economics Instead of Capitalism

Capitalism incorporates private ownership of the means of production, market allocation, and corporate divisions of labor. Remuneration is for property, power, and to a limited extent contribution to output. Class divisions arise due to property and also due to differential access to empowered versus obedient work. Huge differences in decision-making influence and quality of circumstances exist. Buyers and sellers one-up each other. The public reaps the social and ecological catastrophes that self-interested competition sows.

To transcend capitalism, suppose we advocate common leftist core values: solidarity, diversity, equity, self-management, and ecological sustainability. What institutions can propel these values as well as admirably accomplish economic functions?... .

Participatory economics includes

• Self managing workplace and consumer councils for equitable participation

• Diverse decision-making procedures seeking proportionate say for those effected by decisions

• Balanced job complexes creating just distribution of empowering and dis-empowering circumstances

• Remuneration for effort and sacrifice in accord with worthy moral and economic logic

• Participatory planning in tune with economics serving human well being and development

Together these features constitute the core institutional scaffolding of participatory economics, a systemic alternative to capitalism and also to what has been called centrally planned or market socialism but which is really more instructively labeled coordinatorism. Are there fuller formulations of this particular economic vision’s morality and its logic? Most certainly there are.

I should say, at this point, that in my view economic vision and agenda is not enough. I am emphasizing economics because it is my main area of investigation and because the assignment was to address capitalism. But we also need political, cultural, and gender related vision and agenda. Our positive movements should not just be anti capitalist and not even that plus pro participatory economics in its place. They should also be anti authoritarian, anti racist, and anti sexist, and they should be pro a new political, cultural, and kinship vision as well.

I think it's essential that those of us who reject Capitalism, offer an alternative economic system that embodies our values. Albert's Parecon is a powerful response to the question: If not Capitalism, then what?

I also think Albert is correct is highlighting the fact that economies do not operate in a vacuum: they are supported, reinforced, given meaning within cultural settings, kinship relationships, political parties, and gender roles.

Edited by: Dissident Heart at: 1/21/06 4:52 pm

Dissident Heart · Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:33 pm Post subject: Alternatives

I don't think any rational person will deny that the current dominant economic system is profoundly flawed and geared for imminent disaster. Whether we call that system "Global Corporate Capitalism", "Free Market Capitalism", "State Capitalism", whatever, I think we need to be clear that the dominant system that produces, allocates, consumes and disposes of our goods and services is deeply dysfunctional.

I think people stay committed to this dangerous economic system for at least a few reasons:

1. They profit handsomely from it: that tiny minority for whom ownership and management provides great reward, prestige, and power.

2. They simply can't imagine any alternative: that vast majority for whom finances involves terrible anxiety and uncertainty submit to their economic insecurity because they think any alternative will be worse.

I argue that group #1 manipulate the fears and insecurities of group #2 into abandoning any hope of an alternative economic system. They are told, "There Is No Alternative...anything beyond our system is slavery and terror" and the machineries of education, public relations, and entertainment reiterate and pronounce this with thousands of hours of tantalizing/terrifying images and emotionally potent mantras. An ideological border is set firmly in place where hearts and minds do not dare to tread beyond the castle gates.

Edited by: Dissident Heart at: 1/21/06 11:39 am

Izdaari · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:57 am Post subject: Re: The best economic system?

Just my humble opinion, and I'm not in much of a debating mood right now, but still I wanted to share it with y'all:

The best economic system is whatever happens when you leave people alone to decide for themselves as individuals how they want to interact with others. If laissez-faire capitalism is what people choose, that's fine with me. If its some form of anarcho-socialism as DH might prefer, I'm fine with that too, so long as people -- as individuals, not as voices or votes in a collective process -- are free to choose.

ADO15 · Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: The best economic system?

The condition is crucial - so long as people are free to choose...

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Il Sotto Seme La Neva


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