Imagine, there's no heaven

Niall001 · Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: Imagine, there's no heaven

So one of the things that Dawkins argues in The God Delusion is that if there was no religion we'd have

Quote:
no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Indian partition, no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as ‘Christ-killers’, no Northern Ireland ‘troubles’, no ‘honour killings’, no shiny suited bouffant-haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money.

And also:

Quote:
Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing an inch of it

Elsewhere he has stated

Quote:
I mean that if you look at the Middle East, if you look at India and Pakistan, if you look at Northern Ireland, there are many, many places where the only basis for hostility that exists between rival factions who kill each other is religion.

Now, I'd imagine that we could all agree that Richard is exaggerating, but to what extent is he right?

To what extent does religion cause conflict? If religious justifications for war and the like were removed, then would the world become safer, or would we just find other justifications?

Full of Porn*

http://plainofpillars.blogspot.com

FiskeMiles · Experienced Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Posts: 108 Gender:

One point that goes against Dawkins's argument, and those of Sam Harris as well, is that in Western democracies, and particularly in the United States, people of different religious persuasions have learned to live together peacefully if not always amicably.

Sure, there is the lunatic fringe that needs to be restrained, but it is restrained -- action supported by the vast majority of the population. Where religious strife is rampant is in authoritarian/totalitarian states, particularly in the Middle East. This suggests that while religious belief might be a catalyst to violence, it doesn't necessarily have to result in violence. Additional factors must also be present.

What the arguments Dawkins makes here actually amount to are sweeping generalizations from someone who demonstrably hasn't done his homework.

Fiske
www.fiskemiles.com

George Ricker · Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Imagine, there's no heaven

Would all conflict cease if religion stopped existing? Obviously not.

But religion does add an element, a flash point if you will, that is easily exploited by those who want to make use of it to promote their own ends. And in places in the world where the political situation is unstable, religious differences may exacerbate existing fault lines so that they become the tipping point, pushing a society into chaos.

It is certainly simplistic to maintain that religion is responsible for all the world's ills——a position that Dawkins himself doesn't really appear to hold, in spite of some of his rhetoric. However, it's equally simplistic to turn a blind eye to the harm religious fanaticism can cause and pretend it's always something else that creates the problem.

People's beliefs aren't often a problem, but the actions they justify with those beliefs can be.

George

"Godlessness is not about denying the existence of nonsensical beings. It is the starting point for living life without them."

Godless in America by George A. Ricker

FiskeMiles · Experienced Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Posts: 108 Gender:

Let's see, no medical technology, no surgery (curtains for me years ago, unfortunately), no vaccines (curtains for about 75% of us I'm thinking), indoor plumbing is out, no computers, ditto transportation, ditto electronic communication, ditto any objective knowledge of our universe, infant mortality rates would sky-rocket, plagues (that's always a fun one), books (who needs 'em), average life expectancy would fall back to about, what, 40?, hey we could have the Inquisition back. Yeah. I like it.

Where do I place my vote for a return to ignorance, superstition, fear, and stupidity? Oops. Scratch that last item -- we obviously still have THAT.

Good thinking, DH.

Fiske

Edited by: FiskeMiles at: 1/9/07 4:47 pm

Dissident Heart · Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: Imagine there's no technology

I think the same thought experiment could be made of say, technology: Imagine there's no technology.

No toxic waste dumps, chemical weapons of mass destruction, nuclear warheads, torture devices, strip mining, clear forest removal, mercury, lead, pesticides poisoning in drinking water, and the general lack of human emissions increasing global warming and the impact on ecological, agricultural, industrial, metropolitan and community living.

Perhaps we can think of more.

Just as we can think of many benefits from technology, we can identify many virtues from religion: if we are willing to see it.

Part of a delusion is purposefully not seeing what is clearly right in front of you: I think Dawkins has his own delusions regarding the virtues that religion has, does, and will hopefully continue to bring to the human experience.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Imagine there's no technology

Ah I have been wanted to make a post on this topic and I will take this as a lead-in...

Yes...but is medical technology keeping us alive longer than we should be alive? IS it a moral imperetive to keep us alive at any cost? (Think physical/mental suffering, drain on resources & overpopulation and all the ills that brings.) I do not pretend that this is an easy topic to talk about or decide...so lets talk about it and decide, if we can!

I can agree that maybe technology needs to be checked as well as religious overindulgence. I do not think that just because we CAN, we SHOULD.

What are your thoughts on this?

Mr. P.

Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!

Mr. P's Bookshelf.

I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

FiskeMiles · Experienced Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Posts: 108 Gender:

Mr. P:

I think there is an argument to be made for limiting medical support at the extreme limits of life, BUT that conversation more properly belongs in another area. It would be off-topic here, don't you agree?

Fiske

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Imagine there's no technology

Maybe...but I am never one to be afraid of tangents. I take conversation to be an open source type of thing.

But, Ok.

Mr. P.

Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!

Mr. P's Bookshelf.

I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Dissident Heart · Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Imagine there's no technology

Fiske: Where do I place my vote for a return to ignorance, superstition, and fear, and stupidity? Oops. Scratch that last item -- we obviously still have THAT.

Well, if you live with humans, or stake some claim within the Human Race...you're never too far from the vile and superstitious. Sometimes it's clearest, closest, smack dab in the mirror. I think one of the best things about Religion involves the many practices of self examination, exploration and confession: millenia spent sharpening the skills of observing personal appetites, feelings, beliefs, attitudes, habits...focusing and paying attention through prayer, meditation, and careful scrutiny of fears, ambitions, and desires.

When considering the consumerist delusions that pervade our contemporary landscape, demanding some of the very worst that technology can provide (and is steadily pumping in our air, water, soil and food)...I think there is a good deal to be said for some of the ancient methods of self examination and personal scrutiny that religion has long provided.

Niall: To what extent does religion cause conflict? If religious justifications for war and the like were removed, then would the world become safer, or would we just find other justifications?

What if the questions were: To what extent does religion encourage peace? If religious justifications for peace and the like were intensified, then would the world become safer, and could this help mobilize other attempts at peace making?

I think there is enormous, admittedly not enough, effort by multiple religious communities and faithful individuals around the planet working to increase peace, secure justice, and develop more ecologically sustainable ways of life. They are, in many cases, in the forefront of crucial peace and reconcilliation movements around the globe; demanding alternatives to geopolitical conflict than militaristic domination; working to develop economic structures that support participatory democracy and ecological sustainability; and providing many ways for individuals to grapple with personal guilt, meaning for life, and hope for a better future.

Mr. P: I can agree that maybe technology needs to be checked as well as religious overindulgence. I do not think that just because we CAN, we SHOULD.

I think you can safely dismiss the maybe in that statement and loudly demand a must...and I think it is true for both technology and religion. Actually, it is very difficult to simply separate the one from the other. Perhaps it is best to understand religion as a kind of technology?

I agree that just because it is possible and the technology avaialble is no imperative that we pursue any and every endeavor: I think the same can be said of religion.

Edited by: Dissident Heart at: 1/9/07 4:04 pm

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Imagine there's no technology

Is it a distinct human trait that we over-indulge...take a good thing and abuse it till it turns against us? Are we our own worst enemy?

If so, why is that do you think?

Mr. P.

Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!

Mr. P's Bookshelf.

I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper


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