If you were to be tortured which method...

Chris OConnor

If you were to be tortured which method would suck the most? ::44

Results (total votes = 4):


Slowly inserted feet first into a wood chipper	2 / 50.0%

Beheaded with a sword in front of your whole family	0 / 0.0%

Firing squad	1 / 25.0%

Beaten to death with clubs and sticks	0 / 0.0%

Thrown off the top of a building	1 / 25.0%

Chris OConnor

All of the above were favored methods of torture and execution by Saddam and his henchmen.

ADO15

What about waterboarding, sensory deprivation, electric shocks, attacks by dogs, and being shot at point blank range with baton rounds?

All of the above were favored methods of torture and execution by Bush and his henchmen

_________________________________________________________

Il Sotto Seme La Neva

Frank 013

[AD015: What about water boarding, sensory deprivation, electric shocks, attacks by dogs, and being shot at point blank range with baton rounds?
All of the above were favored methods of torture and execution by Bush and his henchmen.]

Gee, why so hostile? The Bush administration is just using the same tools that the previous administrations have used. In fact one of the most popular successes shown using these methods comes from the Clinton administration.

By the way I chose thrown off a building, so I could have one last experience of falling before I died. Falling just feels cool.

Later

Greg Neuman

Quote:
ADO15

What about waterboarding, sensory deprivation, electric shocks, attacks by dogs, and being shot at point blank range with baton rounds?

All of the above were favored methods of torture and execution by Bush and his henchmen

Whether or not "Bush and his henchmen" actually do use such methods, I would take any of them over being inserted feet-first into a woodchipper or beheaded in front of my family. While the tortures you describe here are certainly frightening and painful, they do not lead to permanent injury or death.

(And did anyone else notice how liberals have "supporters", while conservatives have "henchmen"? Not that I'm complaining; I've come to expect such comical mischaracterizations from the left. I just, you know ... want a henchman.)

In any case, ADO15 fails to make a further and more important distinction: While Saddam and his Baathists tortured helpless civilians for such "crimes" as political disagreement, being from the wrong tribe, or possessing western literature, the CIA and US military use such tactics (when they use them at all) on people who's stated goal is the murder of millions of Americans and the utter destruction of western secular democracy.

As I've stated before, I'm of two minds on the whole torture issue. In upwards of 99% of cases, I would be against it. But I think we need to reserve the right to use such methods in that tiny minorty of cases where many lives are at stake and evil, murderous men must be made to tell what they know. Even then I don't like it, I simply believe it might be necessary. Necessary to save hundreds, thousands, or even millions of lives.

Anyway, I think the comparison between Saddam's methods and those used by US interragators is specious at best. They are not only vastly different in severity, they are also vastly different in why and how often they're used.

G

"Dear Buddha: Please bring me a pony and a plastic rocket."

- Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity

Luck of the Draw

G---Anyway, I think the comparison between Saddam's methods and those used by US interragators is specious at best. They are not only vastly different in severity, they are also vastly different in why and how often they're used.

I think the prisoners we turned over to countries that don't recognize human rights, those countries that will do our dirty work as Frank has mentioned, would disagree on your severity comment, no?

And I honestly fail to see a difference. As stated, at the end of the day you are one and the same......someone that hadn't any qualms about torturing another being.

LoTD

"If the truth ever wins ask which lie fought for it"--Nietzche

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

Frank 013

[Luck: As stated, at the end of the day you are one and the same......someone that hadn't any qualms about torturing another being.]

I think you might be misreading the people who are defending the use of torture in the extreme cases.

It is not that we don’t have qualms about torturing another human, its that we can see the greater good of such action, despite the fact that torture goes against every fiber of our being.

Later

ADO15

I was not the one who first used the word henchmen in this thread, so unless you think Chris is from the left, that's shown up a bias already.

Right, where else do we go? OK. There is zero evidence for the much-reported feet-first into the mincer torture. That was made up by the same anti-Saddam faction the Iraq National Council who had so much to gain from Saddam's departure, and supplied plenty of other unsupported 'intel', notably the '45 minutes' claim, which remains uncorroborated. All this despite having no one in Iraq at the time. OK, that's dispensed with.

Next, that the US only uses torture on sworn enemies? Don't make me laugh. Most of the detainees in Guantanamo were not caught in combat areas. Several were kidnapped from different countries, FHS. There is no evidence against them , or else it could have been tested in a court. And what of all the prisoners set free - the British and Italian citizens for example? Did they suddenly become not sworn enemies? I don't think so.

OK, and the bizarre thought that drowning, shooting, and attack by dogs don't end in death? Um. Well, you may be surprised to hear that holding someone under water for a protracted length of time does lead to the inhalation of water and a very unpleasant death. Maybe you have different water in the US, or gills, or something.

_________________________________________________________

Il Sotto Seme La Neva

Frank 013

[ADO15: OK, and the bizarre thought that drowning, shooting, and attack by dogs don't end in death?]

In the vast majority of cases, no.

Remember we have to keep these guys alive so they can talk.

The dunking of the terrorists head in a dirty toilet is not meant to drown them; they are let up before they inhale too much crap and water. If they have inhaled too much water the interrogators move to a safer method while the terrorist clears their lungs.

Shooting for torture is not into the terrorist but near them as a frightening tool; it is often used to jar them awake.

The use of dogs is not what you are thinking, the dogs never touch the prisoners but they do get very close. I hear the dogs can slip away from time to time, but they are quickly recovered.

Now “playing the spaceman” is a nasty procedure that we have used in the past, but I do not think it is tolerated anymore.

Besides the detainees in Gitmo have not been tortured. Mistreated, yep, abused, most surely but these were not approved interrogations, these were nasty people doing nasty things, not our government encouraging torture.

The reporting on Gitmo has been a disgrace. Not the place itself. Many of the Gitmo prisoners were very sick with TB and frostbite, many were already mentally ill or irrational, and the base had very little facilities to hold them.

Meanwhile the detainee's lawyers were suing, and of course repeating the detainee's tales of abuse. (which may or may not be true)

In the same token, a civilian contractor walked into FBI regional offices in Southern California, and alleged abuse including shackling prisoners for extended periods, subjecting them to extremes of heat and cold, introducing dogs into interrogations, putting a lit cigarette into a detainee’s ear, and putting an Israeli flag around a detainee. These allegations by the unnamed civilian were sent to FBI interrogators who had worked at Gitmo and published by the ACLU after a FOIA lawsuit.

It's important to remember that allegations of abuse are coming from one civilian employee (NOT the FBI as shoddily reported); released prisoners in foreign countries suing the US in their local courts; and prisoner's lawyers. None of these people have an axe to grind and are completely trustworthy…right?

Anyway because of the classified nature of the site no one can know for sure what is happening there, except the detainees and the soldiers.

If you insist on saying that the detainees at Gitmo are being tortured I want to see paperwork that is on the record, and testimony from credible people. Not media speculation, released persons who want money or lawyers regurgitating stories.

Later

Frank 013

Hey, if I switch from Independent to Republican can I get henchmen?

::192

Chris OConnor

Quote:
Falling just feels cool.

You are one sick... ::100

SwansonMSU

I've never been to Iraq so I cannot speak from experience. But...

Quote:
Aren't people arguing that hundreds of these prisoners are dying in captivity? Are they dying of boredom or home sickness? Nah, something is killing them and I sure would be humiliated if it were our soldiers acting like barbaric and unrestrained monsters.

I believe those "hundreds" (exagerrated figure) are dying in camptivity for a few reasons: (1) there are idiots in the military just like their are idiots in the regular population (2) scared soldiers over-reacting (3) Scared soldiers reacting correctly and blowing away the scumbags (4) Suicide by the inmates (5) captives attepting escape being shot (6) general accidents...this is war.

I believe some people forget this is not some fantasy "war" but actually a real war that I believe is WWIII. Lets take one instance for example: A soldier has a captive in front of him and the soldier knows the captive has information about a future attack that will kill his buddies. In a time of war that soldier is going to do what it takes to save his friends lives. I would. I think any red-blooded American would, except for pink commies. And I say "pinko commies" with all do respect to the pinko commies. We need all kinds to keep this country moving forward.

Quote:
You'll have to sell me on the idea that we aren't doing "real" torture and that we're only doing the milder forms that we publicly admit.

I can't convince you that we don't do real torture. I believe it happens. But, for America it is the rare exception, for our enemy it is the everyday norm. Doesn't make it right but I believe we lose sight of that.

Quote:
I just don't know. My point is we should be careful not to assume or allow the default position to be, "Americans don't torture and they treat their prisoners more humanely than other nations" simply because we're biased Americans.

Ultimately, I believe there are instances of torture by Americans. Yes it happens. This is war. No war has ever been fought without it and no war has ever been won without it. To believe otherwise is to be naive. It's reality.

Another thing...I dont buy that we need to set an example BS. We could be like little girls at Sunday school and it wouldnt make a difference. They'd still torture and decapitate and not have any respect for us.

I'll be the first to admit I DONT like torture and I dont think it always works. But, we have to accept the realities of war.

And yet another thing. Ive done alot of research on WWII. My late grandfather served in China-Burma. But, everyone makes a big stink about the big bad Americans using the horrible Atomic bombs. But they fail to mention a little known fact that the Japanese decapitated more folks with samurai swords than both bombs combined. Read Flyboys. Great book!

Edited by: SwansonMSU at: 3/4/06 8:55 pm


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