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How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

#130: April - June 2014 (Non-Fiction)
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ant

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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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Interbane wrote:
Enlighten me then, as an atheist, what do you believe existed before the big bang?
We don't know. How about the big bounce? Infinite repetitions of the big bang? I believe no one knows. If someone claims to know, then they don't know what the word 'know' means.
Is there purpose in Nature, or is it purposeless?
Purpose is a human invention. The onus is on you to show that it exists outside humanity. I'd have to say that the most honest answer here is that we don't know. But what we do know is that most if not all instances where people claim to see purpose, there isn't actually purpose. Meaning, if there is purpose in our universe, we haven't seen it yet.
All that is, is eternal and always will be.
Sounds like Robert Tulip.
I deleted my post because I didn't want to create a side diversion totally off base from the discussion you and Stawhre are having.
This has and continues ad naus.

That's all.
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stahrwe

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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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Meaning, if there is purpose in our universe, we haven't seen it yet.
This is clear indication of the difference between atheists and Christians. For atheists there can be NO purpose to existance. For Christians existence is ALL about the purpose.
All that is, is eternal and always will be.
Interbane, Science Was Born Of Christianity includes this statement,

"...science today is returning to the pantheistic, pagan, or atheistic thought of ancient times— times when science did not thrive as a self-sustaining enterprise that discovered physical laws and systems of laws, but instead viewed the world as unpredictable, unknowable, and magical. This will be explained as it is the essence of the argument. To understand this claim is to understand why the Catholic Church has a legitimate right and authority to veto scientific conclusions which directly contradict divinely revealed dogma. It is also to understand that to approach science in this way is to approach it the same way scholars did when modern science was born, thrived, and matured. It is to understand how to sort through the issues in the frontiers of science. That is the reason this claim, when presented correctly, ought to be of interest to people whether Catholic or not."

This should clarify the context for you.
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Interbane

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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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times when science did not thrive as a self-sustaining enterprise that discovered physical laws and systems of laws, but instead viewed the world as unpredictable, unknowable, and magical. This will be explained as it is the essence of the argument. To understand this claim is to understand why the Catholic Church has a legitimate right and authority to veto scientific conclusions which directly contradict divinely revealed dogma.
The first sentence captures a portion of the current status of knowledge then twists it. As always, the truth lay somewhere in the middle. Between “unknowable” at one end, and “all knowing” at the other. The world is indeed predictable. We predict things with great accuracy all the time. In that sense, the world is also knowable. Not infinitely knowable, but then that false ideal is precisely what I assume the book is railing against.

With this correction in mind, the idea that the church has the legitimate right and authority to veto scientific conclusions is simply false. If the world is knowable, and the best method of acquiring that knowledge is science(by virtue of it’s track record), then anywhere the church attempts a veto is a place where the church is most likely wrong.
For Christians existence is ALL about the purpose.
What purpose do you have that you can prove isn't a product of the minds of men?

You also have the atheist position incorrect. Atheists believe that whatever purpose there is, is created by man. The religious belief goes far beyond this, adding unknowable conclusions.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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stahrwe wrote: For atheists there can be NO purpose to existance.
i don't think that's right stahrwe.

an atheist is often just saying "i am not convinced by your arguments for your god"

an atheist might say "i don't believe zeus is real neither do i believe in yahweh, allah etc etc simply because i am far from persuaded by the arguments i have heard, and the arguments against make more sense to me."

but then an atheist might go on to say they derive a great sense of purpose in life from family, friends, art, nature etc etc

life isn't without purpose just because you find substitutionary atonement absurd, or dont feel the need to embrace islam!

and with different people it can be pretty subtle, for example i see zeus, yahweh and allah as projections of part of the human psyche. i see jesus, krishna and buddha as metaphors for a psychological archetype, jungian style. atheists are people and so are religious folk and so perhaps it is unsurprising that they vary tremendously right across the spectrum.

hence we hear christians bag christians, islamists bag islamists and yes, atheists bag atheists, a dynamic variety under some pretty static labels.

personally i don't love because the bible tells me so, i love because often, it feels good to me, it comes with the experience, though i readily acknowledge that along the way i stopped off to learn a thing or two about the biblical perpectives on love.

can never have enough points from which to view.
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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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"The chief purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever."
Westminster Catechism

The requirement to 'prove' it is the safe word atheists use to protect themselves. That being said, I have no problem positing the above stated purpose to be a theory. The theory is that creation' s purpose is to enjoy God and that God is behind that purpose.

From the perspective of atheists "what is the purpose of creation?" Ah, oh yay, PROVE it.
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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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i think you have your terminology mixed up here, Star.

That doesn't qualify as a theory at all.

I think you meant to say "speculation", which is perfectly acceptable in this context.

You are only required to provide evidence that suggests what you say is accurate when you assert it to be accurate according to what can be demonstrated to really be true.

So then, if you say something is absolutely true, you should not be surprised when we require that you prove it before we accept that you are right. If on the other hand you say, I prefer to believe, or it is my idea that: blah blah blah, then even if we are curious as to how you came to those conclusions, you are not under any real burden to prove anything.

As opposed to a scientific theory in which we have amassed all the applicable facts, laws that produce such facts, and the over-arching connections which tie all of it together through mountains of empirical evidence readily available for inspection, under a comprehensive and exhaustive understanding of a field of study which can be demonstrated to be true under laboratory and field conditions. Which means if you don't believe it, you can go check for yourself.

Say.. the theory of evolution for instance.

That vs. an assertion of personal preference which we should all accept as the "purpose" of all existence?

Also, i agree that to reject gods is not to feel there is no purpose. Purpose is the product of man and it is exactly as valuable as we make it.

I also fail to understand how being a minion gives purpose to the believer. It is your purpose to grovel at the feet of an invisible and un-responsive invisible entity? It fills your life with meaning to be an annonymous red-shirt? What "purpose" does it serve to babble an unending stream of praise at something which is perfect? What are you doing? Boosting his ego? Making him feel good? Assuring him you are one of the good guys?

Would an all powerful omnipotent being have any USE for your praise? Does it provide anything to this omnipotent being which can serve a purpose? Something this all powerful being couldn't get on its own? And if not, what purpose does it serve?
In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

Are you pushing your own short comings on us and safely hating them from a distance?

Is this the virtue of faith? To never change your mind: especially when you should?

Young Earth Creationists take offense at the idea that we have a common heritage with other animals. Why is being the descendant of a mud golem any better?
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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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My userid is stahrwe not star.
My terminology is accurate.
The demand for evidence is a ruse.

This discussion is being maneuvered onto the single track default discussion whenever Christianity is discussed.
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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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Let's say stahrwe is correct, that for an atheist there is no purpose in existence that can be put in general terms (as opposed to personal terms). This must be true of me, because I will not tell you what the purpose of existence is, if you were to ask me. But let's also ask an important question: does my having nothing to tell you about the purpose of your life mean that my life is lived without purpose? Isn't the important matter here acting in a way that that is purposeful, and much more than that, purposeful in a manner that is ethically good? There are lots of ethically bad purposes.

I've been willing to accept that atheism might have drawbacks when compared to some beliefs based in theology. It seems a little, I don't know--immature?--to expect that any of us have hit the perfect formula.
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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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Purpose in life is completely subjective, isn't it? We all strive to find meaning in our existence. Stahrwe says we can only have purpose by having faith in "God." But which God is he talking about? His God? Who decides if the god you believe in qualifies. Somehow Stahrwe applies his interpretation of what counts as "purpose" to everyone on the planet. So he sees atheists as having no purpose. Not only do atheists have no purpose, they cannot have purpose unless they believe in his God. Hmm.

Fred Phelps, the founder of Westboro Baptist Church (the God-Hates-Fags guy), arguably found purpose in his life.
-Geo
Question everything
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Re: How Christianity Ended the Tyranny of the Great Year and Freed Intellectual Investigation

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The discussion of purpose is not related to the topic of this thread.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
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