Has Christianity Failed You?

Interbane · Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:38 am


	Quote: My faith in Christ, Interbane, is founded upon the real person of Christ.

It's an assumption that he's real. Your only window to this person is through a book. Unless you have evidence that no one else has ever seen? The only reason to assume he's real is because you first have faith. Your faith is more foundational than 'the real person of Christ', in other words. Since you need faith for the latter, but not vice versa. The lone component that can't be removed is your foundation. Since that foundation is faith, it is no foundation at all.


	Quote: Truth remains truth no matter who disbelieves it passionately, no matter how happy, fulfilling or moral their lives.

Absolutely, but you can't know if you have the truth. Since your worldview is based on faith, it's a flip of a coin. Without any anchor to reality, disbelief is as probable of hitting the "truth jackpot" as belief. You have no anchor by which to weigh the truth. What made you choose belief over disbelief? The unspoken assumption here is that you already understand you can't possibly know the Truth with certainty. Fallible humans all across history have had 100% conviction that they knew the Truth, and have turned out to be wrong. Your conviction does not mean you are actually correct. Certainty is for fools, there is no such thing.


	Quote: I am personally aware that infants do die. Does this mean God's love has failed me? or that in this world there is death, as a result of sin, chosen by the first man and woman who decided God could not be trusted as truly good. Beware of that error. It has caused untold grief, far greater than that caused by the death of an infant.

What does sin have to do with the death of an infant? I'm not talking about murdered infants, where the perpetrator would be sinning. I'm talking about SIDS, or death by other natural means. Why create a world in which suffering is possible? Or do you picture evil as some mystical "force" that initiates hurricanes and farts into the sun to emit solar flares? There is no need for any such hypothesis. We know how and why these things happen. It is the laws of physics themselves that kill people. It's constraints upon the durability of life mixed with the chaos of our universe. Who is responsible for the laws of physics? Does "sin" actually equate to the laws of physics?

Sin would only be a trait held by humans. Given to us by god so we could suffer. Only an idiot wouldn't be able to see that he set Adam and Eve up. In a garden hungry and no knowledge of the consequence of disobedience, if there even would be a consequence. If the rules were even clearly laid out. If they even knew there were rules. You're kidding yourself if you don't think you'd eat the apple in that situation. Suffering for every human who will every live, because of a simple human mistake? Like god didn't see that coming. There are infinite other ways he could have done business without affecting Free Will or any of his attributes. Instead he chose the way that would result in human suffering. Sounds like you're actually worshipping Satan. He's pretty good at deception, no?

lady of shallot · Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:43 am

Dawn:


	Quote: what is a God that can be entirely comprehended by human thought processes?

Wouldn't then a truer God be one that is totally incomprehensible?

Dawn, I'm sorry but you do not "know" Jesus. You know what you have been told and you "know" what you fantasize. Read carefully what you write about your relationship with Jesus, and imagine that anyone else is saying something to you about their relationship with a being you can neither see nor hear. Let's just say for instance that you meet someone that starts telling you about their relationship with King Arthur. You would think the person was crazy.

Your whole life is being spun out of fairy tales and wishful thinking. You certainly have a right to choose to live that way but it is dangerous when you spin those tales for others with a righteous, complacency that is totally opposed by your message. In saying this I do not mean the members of this forum who are well able to understand the lack of foundation for what you say. I mean the children that are being educated by you and others sharing your beliefs.

spoonwood · Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:50 am

I have problems with some stories of the Bible myself. For instance, Noah repopulating the entire animal kingdom with two and seven of each kind. However, I like some of the philosophy of the Bible, just as I like the philosopy of the Buddha's teachings. So when I say Christianity hasn't failed me, I mean some of the teachings of Jesus. I always laughed when I'd think of the story where the woman who had cheated on her husband was going to be stoned, and Jesus said, "Let he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone." It's like giving all the self righteous people the middle finger. He did that a lot I think. He was different, he was unpopular with religious figures of that time. Whether it's real, made up, or whatever, I like some of his teachings. Do a lot of people confuse plain old cause and effect in their lives with the will of God? Yes, I think so. I'm amused when people try to find some kind of symbolism in completely random occurrences.

But there are a lot of peaceful, non-judgmental, Christians out there who have to live in the shadow of the loonies who handle rattle snakes in church and burn Qur'ans. Just like the Muslims who have to suffer the stigma of American hating, bomb assembling radicals. Just because someone believes in a higher power doesn't necesarily make them incapable of logical thought. Who are we to say some kind of Spirit of the Universe doesn't exist, anyway? But I suppose we could say, who are we to say it does exist as well.

I just don't want to bash anyone for their beliefs, as long as they don't bring harm to another person.

johnson1010 · Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:25 pm

Dawn,

Take a look here:

post89357.html

There are no missing links, in the way you are probably thinking of them. All the necessary and important transitional stages have been recovered, for most species, and certainly for humans.

Murrill · Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:16 pm

Quote:


	Quote: The book I read that began this thead Has Christianity Failed You is one you might appreciate. The author, besides being brilliant and well-versed in Eastern religions (being a native of India by birth) is also wise and gracious, a pleasure to read. ..... In N.American culture at present we have unprecedented wealth and comfort so a pain-free life is almost expected and an eternal perspective very little thought of. This has not been the case down through history. We are prone to miss out on spiritual reality because the physical comforts of life are so 'with us'.

Dawn,
Thank you for a thoughtful, respectful, & rational reply. It isn't often that I find common ground with people who are of a religious orientation. My journey has included consideration of a number of philosophies, and the Eastern ones resonate with me. I facilitate my own spiritual life with A Course in Miracles (ACIM) which does, in fact, make references to Jesus. I like the essential tenets---love, forgiveness--but I substitute Spirit for "Jesus." It just conjours images that I find difficult to overlook. That said, I have found that with ACIM I have redefined nmy vocabulary. Love, for instance, is not the adolescent, giddy variety, it is not tree-hugging. It has more to do with a serenity that comes from acceptance.
I think you make a good point that the gross indulgences and abundances insulate us from Spirit. I recall a time in my life when I was unemployed, I was in financial trouble, and I was having some medical issues I couldn't treat. I understood at that time that it was my spirit that mattered. You may be familier with existentialist Viktor Frankl, whose philosophical story emerged during his time in a Nazi concentration camp. During what was probably one of the most horrendous experiences this man found life in meaning.

AndiSGraham · Mon May 30, 2011 11:52 pm

I can only answer as a person with a lot of experience with disappointment in the church. I grew up in a town of about 600-700 people with 3 churches, so religion is a big deal there. A Catholic church, a methodist church, and an Assembly of God church. I went to the Assembly of God because there were other kids my age. I stopped going at 8 years old because the pastor told me that if I ever went to another church I would go straight to hell because they were the only true church. Even at that age I wasn't stupid, so I did what any person would do and I left. Well, I studied Christianity on my own for a number of years but it just didn't feel right and I started looking for something else. At 15 I decided that I would study Alexandrian Wicca and see how it felt, well I had a book in my school bag about Gerald Gardner and a girl from that church saw it and told the pastor. To keep this short I will just say that I was harassed for the entirety of the four years it took me to save up and get out of there. I walked outside and found the word "witch" had been spray painted in red on my bedroom window one morning. And I called the police but unfortunately they never caught who did it. I was harassed in other ways such as threatening phone calls (which stopped after I got caller ID) and people laying on the horn driving passed my house. Christianity failed me because the people in the church failed to follow the teachings of their "Son". And when I needed help to try and put a stop to this, none of the "True Christians" or the "Faithful Catholics" in the other churches would do anything to help me. And that's what I've found of 99.9% of the other "Christians" I've met in my life. They seem to simply use their beliefs to form their cliques and to Hell with all the rest.

Dawn · Tue May 31, 2011 1:02 am

Thanks for taking time to tell your story. What a travesty. People inside and out of the church, are people, who get caught up in their 'cause' and forget so readily the point. When Christians act in such ways they give evidence that they don't understand their faith or the grace that has been extended to them. They of all people should be merciful and loving because of the mercy and love they have known. Unfortunately, many wear the label 'Christian' without knowing the reality of Christ's forgiveness and love themselves. Their church-life is little more than another club. I'm glad you escaped that oppressive little town. (Small town life can be especially short-sighted and egocentric!) You will not find these things to be true of all believers in Christ and should not assume it to be so. Don't let a bunch of fools deter you from pursuing the real Christ. This is in fact a significant point made in the book whose title I used for this thread, namely "Has Christianity Failed You" by Ravi Zacharias. I found it a thought provoking, balanced and compassionate read. Ravi is an excellent writer and thinker. If you're interested I wrote a review at: http://thestacksofdawn.blogspot.com/201 ... chive.html

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