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Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

#92: Jan. - Feb. 2011 (Non-Fiction)
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Penelope

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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Dexter wrote:

But don't you think this claim is amenable to evidence? One study may not be enough, but either it's true or it's not.

And if it's not true, you still may wish to play Mozart for your children. And being rational does not mean you can't appreciate art for it's own sake.
It is not really about one study. There is a book called 'The Mozart Effect' and I found it interesting and plausible.

But the fact of Mozart himself, being such a genius, when music is such a mathematical phenomenon - is my evidence for 'something extra' in humanity.

I use Mozart as an example, rather than Leonardo Da Vinci, because - music is so scientific, as it were.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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I remember seeing (or reading, can't remember which) an interview with the late poet James Dickey. He had begun to delve into subjects that were a bit fantastical and you could say came from the less rational parts of his mind. Some readers and critics had complained about this direction, telling him, "Oh come off it." He replied to them, "I don't want to come off it; I want to go with it." So it seems to me that not just poets but others as well--religious people and artists, for instance--make this choice of "going with it." I have objections to this in particular instances, but it does appear to offer a rewarding way of experiencing life.

"Rational" has come to mean something so restricted that it can't possibly be sufficient for human being. I would argue that, once," rational" or "reason" was more inclusive of our emotional range, more equivalent to the full scope of our perceptions. Sometimes, with the insistence on rationality, I get the feeling that the kind of perception or knowing typically reflected in poetry is excluded. The same could apply to all of art, I suppose, but in my mind especially to poetry.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Oh, thankyou DWill. It is just that I have this...insight, sort of feeling...

Which won't do will it? I need to rationalise all of my reasons!!!

Right, well, when I am up at the pub....with an empty glass in front of me, as all too often happens....

If I ping, flick my finger on the side of the glass...that causes a resonance...which vibrates and resonates...with all of the other glasses behind the bar.....

If I listen to conversations, evesdrop...that same kind of resonance occurs.

We are vibrations....we are all made of vibrations!! (Help me here...TORY BOY..Robert Tulip....you know what I'm getting at....even though we disagree terminally, on a political level)....

I was watching a Science TV Programme last night... it was about Temperature...it said, there was no such thing as heat...it was about particles vibrating - faster....or more slowly....

But wait....we can't achieve absolute zero.....!!!!

Come on you Scientific Bods.......what is all this about vibrations?

I think it is a way of visualising morphic resonance.....when...maybe...we all begin to start questioning the status quo...at the same time....

Robert Tulip....over to you.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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I believe in 'The Mozart Effect'. That playing Mozart to little children affects their brain waves, and makes them cleverer, because the sound waves alter the vibration of the neurons in their brans. I don't know why, but I believe it.
Then you believe it even though experiments show it has no lasting effect. Not to say I didn't play Mozart for my son...

You seem to think of our cognitive functions differently. The small fraction of our reasoning that we focus on, the 'conscience', is just that, a small fraction. We're thinking in the background without realizing it. I refer to this background thinking no differently. You may call it instinct, or not. There are also many predispositions we have as residue from our evolutionary heritage. Biases and lusts and loves. I see these as rational as well! I understand that you may see them as altogether different. But there is a 'free-floating' rationale in love of our children, or desire of a mate, or tendency to believe false patterns. This free-floating rationale ties in to game theory, and has helped the human race arrive at today.

Even music may have such a free-floating rationale, where it served a social adhesion purpose in ritual, or perhaps not. I enjoy music and think it's a wonder of life. But to me, understanding something and also enjoying the majesty of it are not mutually exclusive. To some people, that seems to be the case. Where they say "I am only a big flesh-bag of chemical reactions". Such reductionism is what you need to avoid. Enjoy the beauty of life, but don't view with disdain the things you have come to understand.

I do not think there is some "something extra" to humanity that is beyond understanding. To me, that's robbery. To you, perhaps it serves as an anchor to keep the mystery and beauty of the world in place. But really, there is enough that even though we understand it, it is still beautiful and mysterious. I understand what Pi is, but the next number in the sequence is always a mystery to me. I understand my son, but his next action is always a mystery to me(at least at this age).
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Thankyou Interbane, I am not used to people taking me seriously, at face value that is.

I think about Shakespeare saying 'Music has the power to soothe the savage breast'.....now why? What is it about sound? How can sound, even a drum beat...affect our feelings?

But it certainly does....to good, or deleterious effect.

Because, music causes sound waves....vibrations....which resonate within us.
Interbane wrote:

You seem to think of our cognitive functions differently.
I certainly seem to perceive them differently.....It is how we picture the World...the stories we tell ourselves....the patterns we make.

Are you saying, Interbane, that you don't make patterns, to try to make sense of life?

Maybe it is part oif being female and being more intuitive....or drawn to the intuitive.....but, I am trying to be more rational and scientific. Sometimes my husband of 45 years... is gobsmacked. And that makes me laugh!!
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Well I started an answer not realizing there was a second page on this topic and lost my answer. I was agreeing (I think) with Interbane about "gut instinct"

I had said that on the occasions where I felt I was having a "gut instinct" it was really the coming together of previously ingested bits of either aural or visual information.

I would like to go back and refer to Penelope's posts about left brained and right brained influences and also to the Mozart effect changing brain waves in children. I'm afraid to so so though because then maybe I will lose this.

I think Penelope you said that too much emphasis on one or the other side of the brain would create a "monstrous" individual? This seems a rather extreme thing to say and also one that is not under our control.

My husband is an artist so I would say he is (whichever side of the brain influences that) he is not so good at math. I pay the bills and know where things are filed. I always understand the murder mysteries. Now I definitely could study and practice and become a better artist than I am, but I will never be as good as my husband who himself is not as good as say Leonardo. I guess I don't understand why Penelope you say that dominance of one side of the brain is not preferred. That we should try to "balance" the two sides. Why?

Why if we are both femaie do you consider yourself "intuitive" and I do not consider myself so? What do you mean by patterns? Stories we tell ourselves?

I did not read the text of Sam Harris article but it is interesting to consider the use of the word atheist unnecessary. Which of course it is, except as a quick way of explaining one's position vis a vis "the deity"
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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lady of shallot:

Why if we are both femaie do you consider yourself "intuitive" and I do not consider myself so? What do you mean by patterns? Stories we tell ourselves?
The patterns reference, is from something that Interbane said to me over a year ago and I was very impressed with the analogy. He said, we make patterns and try to make the chaos of life comprehensible to ourselves - and, I think he suggested that I shouldn't keep trying to make everything make sense, and just accept the World/Life the way it is, unfair and chaotic. Since then I have caught myself trying to make patterns, make the pieces fit....you know. The bit about telling stories, is a reference to the human race's history of telling itself stories, about how the World began - like The Garden of Eden, and the flood etc. We feel powerless and confused, so we have always told ourselves stories to try to make sense of it. This before we made such strides in science and begin to understand a little more.

I really didn't mean to imply that I thought that people who had a more dominant side to their brain were monstrous. I just think that people who only concentrate on the wild, impulsive, imaginative side and don't try to develop the rational, scientific and reasoning side - are like the Taliban - just letting their imaginings take over and not reasoning......(Actually, I think most of the poor souls are just too afraid to appear to think for themselves and disobey).

And I think that the relier scompletely on the rational side, try to create a master race, and destroy all those children born born with what they might consider a defect.....to strengthen the gene pool.....but might not have the imagination to realise what compassionless monsters they would be becoming.

I was wrong......It was just me letting my theories run away with me - as is my wont. I'm always trying to solve the puzzle.....but fortunately, I have a well-developed sense of humour and I am aware of my own ridiculousness.

I keep losing my posts - so I'll post this, then go back and see if I've missed any important points.
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Penelope

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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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WRT - Intuition. Now that it is possible to look at brain activity on a computer, we can see that a woman, generally speaking, uses the artistic side of her brain more that a male, generally speaking. I call it the intuitive side because it is the side where to imagination comes from. Not saying we are all Psychic.

Men, use the rational side, more, and again, generally speaking. I did wonder whether that was why many gifted poets and authors of fiction, have been gay. But best not go there!!!

Have you read the book 'Why Women can't Read Maps and Men Don't Listen'? It is a really amusing book but also explains a lot, using computer print outs of brain activity and such.

It is not just theory....there is proof that a female brain works differently to a male brain.

It is very good for me on BT - as they won't let me go off on one.....(as my husband calls it). I just don't know whether I am good for them though. :(
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Penelope wrote:I shouldn't keep trying to make everything make sense, and just accept the World/Life the way it is, unfair and chaotic.
It's okay to try and make sense of things, but you need to realize that in the process, you're necessarily going to have a compressed view of the way things really are. Some information will be lost. Your understanding may be roughly truthful, but it will never be absolutely truthful. Be content to accept a modicum of doubt, even in the things you're most certain of. But don't let the doubt destroy your confidence. If you accept the fact that you could be wrong, then you are more intellectually honest and are more likely to be correct. Let that fuel your confidence.
I guess I don't understand why Penelope you say that dominance of one side of the brain is not preferred. That we should try to "balance" the two sides. Why?
This is one of those cases where I wouldn't be so quick to categorize. There are likely more ways of classifying mental types than 'rational' versus 'artistic'. Quite a few other factors which are just as important yet overlooked. I know many people who are both rational, good at math, and artistic. I also know people who are neither, but have such a high emotional IQ that they are telepathic. Or who are good at none of the above, yet are great athletes.

Perhaps the problem is that when the rational mind isn't held in check by emotion, some immoral actions sometimes manifest. Such a person may not necessarily be emotionless, but they have such powerful beliefs that emotions can't hold them in check. Having a modicum of doubt in all your beliefs is the kryptonite to the inflexible arrogance we often see in people. Inflexible arrogance, especially in an intelligent person, is the worst of all attributes.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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One thing on a forum such as this, is we should actually consider the age of the poster (as much as possible) Some qualities, prominent in our early twenties say, are less so in our 70's! You are of course the same person. Just a moderated version of.

There is a beautiful line in Love in the Time of Cholera, which is "they were safe on the other shore" One does find oneself safe on that other shore quite often in older age.

Penelope I don't know that book but I have a friend whose husband was reading "men are from Mars and woman are from Venus" on the beach when a man walked by and said, "your wife made you read that didn't she?" Anyway I can definitely read maps but do agree that men do not listen! But then they say that is because we talk too much.

I must be rather simple minded as many things do not bother me at all, nor do I ever think of them. Beliefs in the thoughts of others, condemnations from others etc. Maybe because all of my adult life I have lived far from family and created my own life without much influence from others/

Penelope said: "I just think that people who only concentrate on the wild, impulsive, imaginative side" based just on this statement, I would think such a person had some serious issues.
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