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Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
This is an exercise I was asked to participate in recently, and found it very interesting, so I thought I would share. And I am curious to see how people rank these characters. I participated in this exercise with a group of people, and the discussion that followed became quite heated as people felt very strongly about their decisions.
Below you will find a story. After reading the story rank the individuals in the story in order, with the person you find the most distasteful first, to the person you find the least distasteful last.
Once upon a time, there was a woman named Abigail who was in love with a man named Gregory. Gregory lived on the shore of a river. Abigail lived on the opposite shore of the river. The river that seperated the two lovers was teeming with man-eating alligators. Abigail wanted to cross the river to be with Gregory. Unfortunately, the bridge had been washed out. So she went to ask Sinbad, the riverboat captain, to take her across. He said he would be glad to if she would consent to go to bed with him preceeding the voyage. She promptly refused and went to a friend named Ivan to explain her plight. Ivan did not want to be involved in the situation. Abigail felt her only alternative was to accept Sinbad's terms. Sinbad fulfilled his promise to Abigail and delivered her into the arms of Gregory.
When she told Gregory about her amourous escapade in order to cross the river, Gregory cast her aside with distain. Heartsick and dejected, Abigail turned to Slug with her tale of woe. Slug, feeling compassion for Abigail, sought out Gregory and beat him brutally. Abigail was overjoyed at the sight of Gregory getting his due. As the sun sets on the horizon, we hear Abigail laughing at Gregory.
How would you rank these characters, who is the most distasteful? Who is the least distasteful? And why? This exercise was created to determine what personal values you hold most dear.
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
Abigail She is impetuous, demanding, and vengeful. Had she waited another opportunity to cross the river may have been presented to her. Instead she insisted on crossing the river NOW, and as a result accepted a terrible deal for passage. After being rejected by Gregory, she did nothing to stop Slug from beating him.
Slug Slug over reacted in a major way and attacked the wrong person entirely. Not that anyone should have been attacked in this scenario. These were all consenting adults who made choices. If Slug decided he needed to beat anyone for Abigail's honor, it should have been Sinbad, who used her and took advantage of a woman who perceived her desire to cross as some desperate need.
Sinbad No doubt, Sinbad is a giant ass. It cost him nothing, really, to ferry her across the river, yet he demanded an exploitive price because he knew he was the only game in town, currently. Though it was a D-bag thing to do, he did present this deal to her well ahead of time and she had the opportunity to refuse his offer and she could have gone the rest of her life without falling prety to him. Had he demanded this mid-trip, with no warning ahead of time, or tried to take her by force, he would have been much higher on the list.
Gregory Gregory is almost blameless. Nothing in the story indicates that Gregory encouraged her to cross the river, or showed her any interest in a relationship. It isn't his fault that she made a foolish choice for a possible chance at a relationship with Gregory. He should have shown her sympathy, and pitty for her foolish choices, but he was not obligated to be her mate simply because she went to lengths to get him. Conversely, if it had been a man who crossed the river, lets say by swimming, and had his hand bitten off, if the woman on the other side rejected him, she is not to blame for his missing hand.
Ivan Ivan is not to blame. She was aware of her choices and knew it was a bad deal. It did not go into detail what Ivan's relationship to Abigail was. She should have worked with Ivan, learned how to build a boat and sailed across on her own without having to degrade herself.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
The way i took it was not that Gregory was mad that she took such a terrible deal to cross the river, for all we know she was in love with him, but he didn't even know who she was.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources. -The Credible Hulk
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
Interbane wrote:
I'd like to hear an analysis of my values. What value do I hold most dear according to my response? I'm curious.
Since you chose Sinbad as the most distasteful, you cherish the value of integrity the most, and since you chose Ivan as the least distasteful, you cherish loyalty the least, according to the exercise. Integrity is a moral value and loyalty is a cognitive value.
Abigail represents self control- moral Gregory represents forgiveness- moral Slug represents politeness -cognitive
What is interesting about this exercise is; personal values are chosen, and are fluid, they can change due to circumstances. For instance, if you were caring for a terminally ill loved one, loyality may become more important to you.
I have three teenagers, so self control is big on my list of values. In five years, when they are all starting their own lives and are more mature, the importance of this value may change.
This exercise is best done within a group of people. The object is; yes we hold our values dear, but those values can change due to circumstances in our lives. If ten people were to complete this exercise it is possible, and likely that there would be 10 different responses even though all 10 possess all five of these values.
The moral: Don't judge people due to their personal values and which ones they hold the most dear, because you do not know what circumstances they may be going through.
I participated in this exercise during a domestic violence advocacy program. We did it first on our own, then we were placed in groups. We had to all agree how to place the characters, it was almost imposible. Each one of us had to compromise on someone, and it wasn't easy. This shows how important our values are. One young girl got so upset that we placed Abigail first, she left our group.
_________________ I feel like a wet seed wild in the hot blind earth. --William Faulkner
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
#1 Slug Slug used physical violence and to me this is the most distasteful. If everyone resorted to physically attacking other people this would be a pretty scary and uncivilized world. And he attacked Gregory for no reason too. Scary stuff. She cheats on Gregory, Gregory then rejects her, so Gregory gets his ass beat?
#2 Abigail Abigail is a pretty rotten person for encouraging and allowing Slug to slug Gregory. Her infidelity is of course distasteful, but according to studies a large percentage of people cheat on their significant others. Very few people encourage or allow one person to beat up another person, independent of what that person did wrong. In civilized society physical violence will get you time behind bars while infidelity will not.
Again, it is the physical assault that I find the most distasteful. People can heal from emotional trauma but physical altercations can lead to great injury or even death. No man should fear for his physical safety in a civilized world.
#3 Sinbad I don't consider what Sinbad did as hugely distasteful. He owns the boat and can charge whatever he wants for passage. (assuming there are no laws protecting Abigail's right to passage) The guy was horny and an opportunist. How many women haven't been propositioned like this for sex at some point or another in their lives? Heck, I've been offered money on numerous occasions to have sex with both men and women. (years ago and no I didn't do it) This is a very common male behavior and while it is distasteful it doesn't compare to physically attacking someone or encouraging someone to attack another person.
#4 Ivan Mildly distasteful. Abigail went to Ivan asking for his advice. Perhaps Ivan doesn't consider consensual sex between adults to be that big of a deal. So he said to Abigail this is your choice. I don't want to be involved. Ivan may be her friend but friendship doesn't obligate you to be a therapist or to get involved in every dispute of your friends. What was Ivan supposed to do? Go beat up Sinbad for "asking" for sex?
Abigail was given a choice of having sex or not. She made the choice of her own free will.
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
Damn, Chris.
You must be one sexy beast!
I have had girls put the moves on me, but none of them wanted to pay me for it. Well, hey. Maybe they would have paid me, but i never held out that long in the negotiations. Haha.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources. -The Credible Hulk
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
Suzanne wrote:
Once upon a time, there was a woman named Abigail who was in love with a man named Gregory. Gregory lived on the shore of a river. Abigail lived on the opposite shore of the river. The river that seperated the two lovers was teeming with man-eating alligators. Abigail wanted to cross the river to be with Gregory. Unfortunately, the bridge had been washed out. So she went to ask Sinbad, the riverboat captain, to take her across. He said he would be glad to if she would consent to go to bed with him preceeding the voyage. She promptly refused and went to a friend named Ivan to explain her plight. Ivan did not want to be involved in the situation. Abigail felt her only alternative was to accept Sinbad's terms. Sinbad fulfilled his promise to Abigail and delivered her into the arms of Gregory.
When she told Gregory about her amourous escapade in order to cross the river, Gregory cast her aside with distain. Heartsick and dejected, Abigail turned to Slug with her tale of woe. Slug, feeling compassion for Abigail, sought out Gregory and beat him brutally. Abigail was overjoyed at the sight of Gregory getting his due. As the sun sets on the horizon, we hear Abigail laughing at Gregory.
I have the least respect for Gregory. He claimed to love Abigail, but rejected her after she put herself through an ordeal to be with him.
Abigail is not much better. She claimed to love Gregory but rejoices in his suffering.
Slug is a meddling busy-body. What did Gregory ever do to him? He had other options for showing compassion to Abigail that would not have involved causing injury to another person.
Sinbad may have poor taste in wanting to bed Abigail, but he states his terms and follows through on them. Once Abigail pays his price, he delivers on his promise. Something that is not explored in the information we're given is whether he might have been willing to accept some other price if Abigail had attempted to bargain with him.
Ivan seems to me to be the wisest of the lot, staying out of a situation in which he perceived he could make no positive contribution.
So that's what I think. Now I'm interested to see how others analyze the story.
Edited to add: In reading the story, my impression was that Gregory and Abigail already had a relationship when the story started, not that Abigail was pursuing Gregory. I think what gave me this impression is the reference to "the two lovers" in the fourth sentence. Re-reading, I see that other interpretations are possible. My putting Gregory at the top of my list is based on this assumption that they had a relationship at the beginning of the story, i.e., that Gregory had given Abigail reason to believe that he would welcome her with open arms when she finally got across the river.
Thinking about the story under this alternate interpretation (that Gregory wasn't interested in Abigail but she was pursuing him), I would rank Gregory alongside Sinbad -- perhaps having poor judgement in treating Abigail with disdain when she shows up on his doorstep, but not under any obligation to her. This interpretation would also make Slug's attack more egregious. So under this interpretation, maybe Abigail and Slug tie for first place, Sinbad and Gregory tie for second, and Ivan still seems to me like the smartest fellow in the bunch.
However, I wouldn't agree that loyalty is not important to me. I just don't think Ivan was under an obligation to (help) solve Abigail's problem for her. Abigail's behavior seems to me a much greater violation of loyalty (to Gregory) than Ivan's choice. If Abigail ever really loved Gregory, she would have been loyal to him regardless how he treated her. That's what love means to me -- wanting what's best for the loved one, even if that means being rejected by them. In my reading of the story, Abigail just wanted her way.
_________________ Tom
Last edited by tbarron on Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
You are right tbarron. It does indicate that they were "two lovers", so my initial idea of her persuing someone who perhaps did not know her was off.
In that case, i revise as follows
Abigail is still the worst. She still made rash decisions without considering the consequences, and allowed herself to be exploited. Again, Sinbad did not force himself on her. She had options, and chose to be used by someone. This is a fundamental lack of self respect. All she got out of it was a boat ride.
She still should have waited for a better opportunity, or simply had Sinbad deliver a message for her, or sent a letter to Gregory. Clearly there have been numerous opportunities in the past for her to cross the river, else how did the two ever fall in love? Was she continually sleeping with Sinbad in exchange for trips across the river? Maybe Sinbad was under the impression that THEY were the lovers? More probably, there are other numerous opportunities to cross. This makes her offense worse in my mind.
Slug
Same as before for Slug. Over reacted, violent. Targeted the wrong person if he was trying to defend her honor.
Sinbad Two scenarios crop up in my mind about Sinbad now. One is my original judgement. The second is that Abigail has clearly had the opportunity to meet Gregory face to face on numerous occasions, otherwise, how would they be lovers? Either Gregory was making the trips to her side, or vice versa. Sinbad was either charging Gregory an acceptable amount, or there are other forms of transportation available. On the other hand, Abigail was either using those alternate forms of transportation, or Sinbad suddenly demanded an outrageous price, or she has been sleeping with Sinbad for every trip across.
Least likely is that Sinbad was under the impression that he and Abigail were the lovers, and he was bringing her across for other reasons than to meet a man. The most likely scenario seems to be that Abigail, or Gregory had no problem finding passage in the past, so there is no reason to think Abigail HAD to take Sinbad's deal.
Gregory Gregory’s reaction to Abigail must be predicated on the state of their relationship. Her actions were ridiculous any way you look at it. She should never have traded sex for a boat ride, especially if she was in a committed relationship. If she had thought ahead just a bit, she might have realized that Gregory would not be impressed with her selling out his faithfulness for a boat ride. If he had gotten a message from her about her predicament, I am quite sure he would have tried to assist in some way, if only crossing the river himself. It seems unlikely Sinbad would proposition Gregory the same way he did Abigail. And if he DID get that same proposition, I would not advice Gregory to take that deal either. Gregory’s choice to shun Abigail proves prescient as she basically puts a hit out on him afterwards. You can’t fix that kind of crazy. You don’t want that woman raising your kids.
Ivan Ivan is still blameless.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources. -The Credible Hulk
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
The worst thing that Abigail did, that made me place her at number one, was laughing after Greggory got slugged. Her actions with Sinbad were pretty distasteful, but how can you truly love someone and enjoy watching them get beat up?
_________________ I feel like a wet seed wild in the hot blind earth. --William Faulkner
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
Suzanne wrote:
Interbane wrote:
I'd like to hear an analysis of my values. What value do I hold most dear according to my response? I'm curious.
Since you chose Sinbad as the most distasteful, you cherish the value of integrity the most, and since you chose Ivan as the least distasteful, you cherish loyalty the least, according to the exercise. Integrity is a moral value and loyalty is a cognitive value.
Abigail represents self control- moral Gregory represents forgiveness- moral Slug represents politeness -cognitive
So it seems that the characters in the story represent the quality they don't possess. Abigail doesn't have self control, Gregory doesn't exhibit forgiveness, Slug doesn't practice politeness, Ivan doesn't behave loyally.
So I infer that the designer of the exercise saw Sinbad as lacking in integrity.
However, it seems to me that Sinbad DID act with integrity. Acting without integrity in Sinbad's part would mean 1) propositioning Abigail for sex in exchange for a boat ride, 2) getting the sex from her in fulfillment of her end of the bargain, and 3) failing to deliver the agreed upon boat ride. But he fulfilled his commitment, which seems to me to be the essence of integrity. Integrity, as I understand it, is the quality of being integrated, of having all one's components aligned and moving together in a coherent direction.
In my estimation, Gregory acted without integrity when he claimed to love Abigail but rejected her because of the means she chose to join him. ("Love is not love that alters when it alteration finds.") Abigail acted without integrity when she claimed to love Gregory but laughed at his injury and suffering. Slug acted without integrity when he attacked another person without a good reason (I don't consider making a friend happy a good reason for attacking and injuring someone).
I would say that Sinbad and Ivan were the only ones in the story who DID act with integrity. Ivan made no commitment. Sinbad delivered on his.
In his book Predictably Irrational, Dan Ariely describes the difference between social norms and market norms and the confusion and hurt feelings that can result when the two are confused. It's common to think about relationship stuff (like sex) in terms of social norms, so it can be shocking when a character in a story like Sinbad comes along and wants to apply market norms to such matters. It's like offering to pay your mother-in-law for preparing Thanksgiving dinner for you (an example from the book).
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Re: Expressing Values, who is the most distasteful?
Abigail (I was going to put Abigail as less distasteful than Sinbad. She's a little dumb for sleeping with the guy to get across the river but I think she meant it to be romantic? However, she should NEVER have someone else beat people up. Be a woman, take care of your own problems. D: ) Sinbad (What a tree-humper. Jerkweed.) Gregory (Maybe try to be a LITTLE more understanding?) Slug (Heart in the right place? He shouldn't be beating people, really. Giving Gregory a stern talkin' to would have been better.) Ivan (He didn't want to get eaten. I understand that. Though, it would have been good to help a friend.) man-eating alligators (They're only really man-eating because they're hungry. =D)
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