1) Nothing in the account indicates that the crowd knew what was going on.& 2) There was no nightly news in that era.
You neglect the fact that these claims have no evidence supporting them. They can be dismissed. This is not a case of 'absence of evidence is evidence of absence', since the implication that these events took place is that the laws of nature must be changed to accommodate them. Which means, the evidence against these claims are the findings of modern science, namely that the laws of nature do not allow for such magical events to happen.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Kevin:
Quote:
hrm... the oily? Anyway, didn't Josephus mention Jesus?
No, he didn't.
There is actually a good deal of deate about this. Even the website you furnish as proof of "No" says this: In addition to acknowledging the spuriousness of the Josephus passage, many authorities quoted here agreed with the obvious: Church historian Eusebius was the forger of the entire Testimonium Flavianium.
Quote:
You neglect the fact that these claims have no evidence supporting them. They can be dismissed. This is not a case of 'absence of evidence is evidence of absence', since the implication that these events took place is that the laws of nature must be changed to accommodate them. Which means, the evidence against these claims are the findings of modern science, namely that the laws of nature do not allow for such magical events to happen.
It seems to me you're saying that God cannot exist since the laws of nature would have to be changed in order to accomodate for his presence. And yet, everyone mostly could agree that this is the essense of the God-concept. So I think you're saying something everyone already knows, and agrees on, and calling it proof against the existence of God.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
So I think you're saying something everyone already knows, and agrees on, and calling it proof against the existence of God.
I'm very much against the word "proof". That our universe conforms to certain laws is compelling evidence against a personal god. However, a naturalistic deity is not ruled out as an agent that created those laws in the first place. They are two different definitions of "god".
Again, which do you think is more likely; that nature had veered off it's course, or that men fabricated the tale? We know that men certainly fabricate tales, and we also know that the laws of nature have remained constant across all contemporary scientific documentation.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
So I think you're saying something everyone already knows, and agrees on, and calling it proof against the existence of God.
I'm very much against the word "proof". That our universe conforms to certain laws is compelling evidence against a personal god. However, a naturalistic deity is not ruled out as an agent that created those laws in the first place. They are two different definitions of "god".
When I started the discussion, "Necessary Being" my main interest was in having an explanation, from a BT member not Dawkins, or Hitchins, et al, as to why a universe which conforms to certain laws leads to the conclusion that their is no God. Spell God with a little g if you want. Forget the Bible if you want. Why jump to the conclusion that there is not deity just because you think you can identify laws of nature?
[quote=Robert Tulip"]Again, which do you think is more likely; that nature had veered off it's course, or that men fabricated the tale? We know that men certainly fabricate tales, and we also know that the laws of nature have remained constant across all contemporary scientific documentation.[/quote]
Really? There is a law of thermodynamics that states that everything tends to move from a state of order to one of disorder yet evolution would seem to indicate the opposite happens.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
Really? There is a law of thermodynamics that states that everything tends to move from a state of order to one of disorder yet evolution would seem to indicate the opposite happens.
The law of Thermodynamics doesn't change, only the phenomena it references changes. Evolution is a theory, not a law. The difference between a theory and a law is not one of "importance" or "certainty", but rather one of type.
Quote:
Why jump to the conclusion that there is not deity just because you think you can identify laws of nature?
I didn't say that. What I said was: "However, a naturalistic deity is not ruled out as an agent that created those laws in the first place."
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Your signature Stahrwe:
"Argumentum ad Ignorantiam known as the appeal to ignorance, an informal logical fallacy that asserts a proposition to be either true or false merely because it has not been proven or disproven. Carl Sagan criticized this practice by referring to it as "impatience with ambiguity" and pointing out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".
Did you change your beliefs? This is actually a rational signature! Unless you're unable to understand how it supports evolution yet does not support any religion.
Are you saying that logical principles are limited in their applicability?
Are you saying that there is one standard of evidence for science and another for religion?
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
Are you saying that logical principles are limited in their applicability?
Are you saying that there is one standard of evidence for science and another for religion?
No, I'm not saying nor implying those things. I will answer them, but I don't see how it has any bearing on your signature.
Logical principles are limited in where they apply. For example, quantum superposition.
The standards of evidence are the same for science and religion.
Isn't quantum superposition more of a probality issue than a logical one.
Anyway, if the same rules apply to science and religion is it not true that the lack of evidence is not evidence of lack for God as well?
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
But as Sigmund once said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and I am afraid that in this case there is obviously no hidden meaning.
Sometimes a myth is just a myth. Rather than it being a story of miracles and supernatural events and impossible facts. You're confusing which of the two positions is more credible. Even if Roberts ideas seem outlandish, they are a thousand times more parsimonious than to claim that biblical events actually happened.
When you put human nature in the mix, knowing that men tell tall tales, knowing that men fabricate stories to explain events. The answer is painfully obvious.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
But as Sigmund once said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and I am afraid that in this case there is obviously no hidden meaning.
Sometimes a myth is just a myth. Rather than it being a story of miracles and supernatural events and impossible facts. You're confusing which of the two positions is more credible. Even if Roberts ideas seem outlandish, they are a thousand times more parsimonious than to claim that biblical events actually happened.
You're smarter than to allow your bias to allow you to believe this is true.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
You're smarter than to allow your bias to allow you to believe this is true.
Nice try.
A) The laws of nature veer off their course during a portion of history, miracles happen, contemporary sources are strangely silent.
B) Men fabricated the events, and phrased cryptic observations of movements in the stars in their works.
Give me a fucking break.
I would appreciate it if you would keep you language in check. Profanity has no place in a civil discourse.
And I must remind you that there are detailed contemporary accounts extant as well as in the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud. The two latter documents are unbiased and contain what is possibly the most compelling corroboration of Jesus' claims. I have included this information in other posts so I will refer you to the material and you can investigate if for yourself: Babylonian Talmud Soncino version, Yoma 39b.
you would be well served to check the validity of anti-Biblical claims before parrotting them.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Quote:
I would appreciate it if you would keep you language in check. Profanity has no place in a civil discourse.
You're blind to your own stupidity. There aren't words to describe it. The bible has been proven wrong, yet you cling to it. Not only that, but you push it on young minds. No wonder our country is falling behind in scientific advancement. Other countries are surpassing us or gaining on us in education that's vital to our future, and YOU and people who believe the same as you ARE TO BLAME. My harsh language is nothing compared to the crimes you're committing to propogating this nonsense that is proven false. You're ruining the future of our country.
Quote:
And I must remind you that there are detailed contemporary accounts extant as well as in the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud. The two latter documents are unbiased and contain what is possibly the most compelling corroboration of Jesus' claims. I have included this information in other posts so I will refer you to the material and you can investigate if for yourself: Babylonian Talmud Soncino version, Yoma 39b.
I'm supposed to believe every human on Earth, including newborn infants, were completely evil, based on some obscure reference that doesn't even support the supernatural events? Isn't that the jewish bible? What corroboration do THEY have? What events do they supposedly corroborate?
If there is contemporary evidence that supports some mass feeding, that IS NOT evidence for ANY OTHER part of the bible. It IS ONLY evidence for a mass feeding. It IS NOT evidence that the mass feeding was performed by conjuring up food. It IS ONLY evidence that a bunch of people ate food.
The parameters for what constitutes evidence and what that evidence supports are VASTLY more strict that you think. For even the most mundane parts of the bible to be well supported, there would need to be DOZENS of indisputable contemporary sources which matched up on many various events of Jesus' life. EVEN THEN, such evidence would ONLY support the parts they reference. EVEN THEN, they would ONLY support mundane events, not supernatural events. For supernatural events to be supported as TRUE rather than FABRICATED, you'd need to show that such things are possible. No corroborated experiment has EVER found such things to be possible. They are man-made fantasies.
At the same time, you're brainwashed into thinking that some scientific theories somehow skirt this strict requirement, or that a handful of people are able to hoodwink millions, or that some worldwide conspiracy theory is afoot.
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Re: The really BIG miracles of Jesus
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
I would appreciate it if you would keep you language in check. Profanity has no place in a civil discourse.
You're blind to your own stupidity. There aren't words to describe it. The bible has been proven wrong, yet you cling to it. Not only that, but you push it on young minds. No wonder our country is falling behind in scientific advancement. Other countries are surpassing us or gaining on us in education that's vital to our future, and YOU and people who believe the same as you ARE TO BLAME. My harsh language is nothing compared to the crimes you're committing to propogating this nonsense that is proven false. You're ruining the future of our country.
Quote:
And I must remind you that there are detailed contemporary accounts extant as well as in the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud. The two latter documents are unbiased and contain what is possibly the most compelling corroboration of Jesus' claims. I have included this information in other posts so I will refer you to the material and you can investigate if for yourself: Babylonian Talmud Soncino version, Yoma 39b.
I'm supposed to believe every human on Earth, including newborn infants, were completely evil, based on some obscure reference that doesn't even support the supernatural events? Isn't that the jewish bible? What corroboration do THEY have? What events do they supposedly corroborate?
If there is contemporary evidence that supports some mass feeding, that IS NOT evidence for ANY OTHER part of the bible. It IS ONLY evidence for a mass feeding. It IS NOT evidence that the mass feeding was performed by conjuring up food. It IS ONLY evidence that a bunch of people ate food.
The parameters for what constitutes evidence and what that evidence supports are VASTLY more strict that you think. For even the most mundane parts of the bible to be well supported, there would need to be DOZENS of indisputable contemporary sources which matched up on many various events of Jesus' life. EVEN THEN, such evidence would ONLY support the parts they reference. EVEN THEN, they would ONLY support mundane events, not supernatural events. For supernatural events to be supported as TRUE rather than FABRICATED, you'd need to show that such things are possible. No corroborated experiment has EVER found such things to be possible. They are man-made fantasies.
Take a deep breath and read the above paragraph. You are demanding that in order to validate a miracle I must be able to duplicate the miracle in a lab. Talk about a logical trainwreck. And as for why we are falling behind in math and science, it is because we have an education system which for too long has rewarded mediocraty, has refused to measure achievement, permits lazy and disinterested teachers to remain on the job. As far as the students go, our culture ridicules the studios as nerds and celebrates the sexually obsessed, beer swilling, academic underachiever as the model. That my friend if what damages our kids and holds our eduction system back.
At the same time, you're brainwashed into thinking that some scientific theories somehow skirt this strict requirement, or that a handful of people are able to hoodwink millions, or that some worldwide conspiracy theory is afoot.[/quote]
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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