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Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15 
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Post Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15


Use this thread for discussing Chapters 13 through 15, or create and use your own threads. ::80

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 4/10/06 4:51 pm



Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:00 am
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Yea, what a great book! Just finished the book in three days and I could hardly put it down. The ending is just fantastic, so many kicks in the pants. Especially when Ender learns that the entire issue was a communication problem (which I think was eluded to before it was revealed at the end? am I remembering that right? Rackham and Ender perhaps discussing the fact that the humans and buggers could not communicate so could not determine each other's intent). The switch over from game to reality was killer (literally and figuratively!)! Looking forward to reading the sequels.

::233

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 4/10/06 4:54 pm



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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Fantastic book!

This book seems to take on the notion that the military takes our kids, trains them using 'games' and lies to them about what they are really being trained to do. The criticism is harsh against the ideas that we only strike in self-defense.

Ender was a dupe after all. Lied to by his 'superiors' to commit genocide against an enemy that they assumed they knew but actually never bothered to engage in any attempt at understanding.

Were the bugger totally innocent in this matter? The queen alludes to a mistake that they made and how they desired to correct that mistake. Did any human 'leaders' understand this at all, or were they truley acting in self-defense? Was this mainly a colonization effort? A manifest destiny?

Great book.

Mr. P.

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Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
It's a shame that this reading isn't getting more attention. I'll try to pick up a copy and re-read it if I can think to do so. I've got a lot of stuff going on the next few weeks, though, so it may be a while before I get around to it.




Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:08 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Yeah I was beginning to think this was a dead conversation. I am going to TRY to collect more thoughts and post away, but if there are no responses, that will get old quick.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:12 pm
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
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Were the bugger totally innocent in this matter? The queen alludes to a mistake that they made and how they desired to correct that mistake. Did any human 'leaders' understand this at all, or were they truley acting in self-defense?


It has been a few years since I read this, but my understanding was that the humans had no way of knowing that the buggers felt they made a mistake. I've read every book in the series, now, and I believe the humans were so terrified at inevitably being attacked again, that they felt the human attack would be the only way to ensure human survival. On the same token, the humans didn't realize they were going to have to commit zenocide. Ender, of course, thought it was just another test, so he wasn't thinking of the moral implications.

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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
I think the humans actually PLANNED the Xenocide. I mean, they knew about the queen and how if the queen is killed, the rest die as well. They planned a direct assault on the home planet, where the queens were.

Does this scenario speak to human against human war? I mean...iis Card saying that we do not listen or try to understand each other before going off and attacking? Is this an example of what we are going through today?

I do not mean this from an Amercentric POV...misunderstanding works both ways after all.


Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
I think Mr. P is correct, the leaders planned for Ender to nail the queen and wipe out the entire race.




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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Hive queen is correct to though...in that the humans did not realize that the buggers were sorry and trying to make amends. They just did not care enough to even consider it though. It was easier to destroy the danger than try to understand it and work toward diplomatic channels. The danger felt was too overwhelming...so the best solution was to eradicate it.

Also..the earth in this story is over-populated...we simply need to move out and colonize...it is mentioned that colonizing Buggers worlds would be easy, since most of the framework is laid out and useable by humans. It was purely self interest.

And ahh...the Discussion questions I posted have jarred a point I had marked off to bring up (I do not have the book with me at this time). The conversation between Dink and Ender as well as the videos of the 2nd invasion (sparse scenes of a seemingly easy victory) that tipped me off that the buggers were not a threat...that it was "the adults" that were the enemy (due to the adults lying to them).

All too familiar throught our history, no?


Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Edited by: misterpessimistic  at: 5/1/06 1:22 pm



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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Mr.P, i have no idea what you are talking about. our great country would never go to war and attack another country that was not really a threat. ::182 ::04




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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Must be me going off on a tantrum again huh? ;)

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Captioning Blue Lily's last post, I think we can see exactly why we should LOOK for meaning in fiction. I do not think anyone writes JUST to write a story. Even if the prime mover was a creative urge, experience and ingrained social issues are bound to emerge.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
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As someone who writes fiction, I can tell you that's probably not the case. Even if you don't want to take my word for it, there are plenty of books and essays about writing which reveal the extent to which authors are often surprized at what crops up in their own books without their intent.


As someone who also writes fiction - and has made his living as a professional Writer for over 10 years - I disagree. Yes, stories do tend to take on a life of their own at times, but the author has ultimate control. And considering the thorough editorial process that novels go through before being published, I can say with extreme confidence that what is in Ender's Game is only what Card wants in Ender's Game.

When finished, works of fiction usually do look quite different from the author's original outline. That's just part of the writing process. But any meaning - moral or otherwise - that survives writing, revision, editing, and publishing is meant to be there.

Quote:
I think it's intellectually dishonest to presume that you know what an author intended. Readers are only capable of judging the content of a book according to what they take from it. As far as I'm concerned, authorial intent is only valid up until the moment the book hits the reader's hands.


I know what the author intended because Card has stated, fully and precisely, what he intended. Therefore it is not presumption, it is fact.

The only valid meaning any work of art can have is the one that its creator puts there. Such meaning can be simple and dull (Scream III), straightforward and interesting (The Lord of the Rings), multi-layered and insightful (The Satanic Verses), or intentionally cryptic and impenetrable (Gravity's Rainbow). But regardless of the nature of the work, the person reading or watching it does not actually add anything to it; the best they can hope for is to be astute enough to grasp 100% of the artist's meaning.

People can look at Michelangelo's David and get anything from "Naked dude!" to "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form, in moving, how express and admirable! In action how like a god! The paragon of animals!". In that sense, yes, people take different meanings from any work of art. But if someone says David is an expression of the renaissance peasantry's apprehension over declining grain prices and emerging market economies on the Iberian peninsula, he's either crazy or full of shit.

Quote:
That Card has been accused of any of those things is the fault of those who are more interested in authorial intent than in the specific reaction of the reader to the work.


They are indeed "more interested in authorial intent than in the specific reaction of the reader to the work", but the problem isn't their interest in authorial intent. The problem is that they're seeing intent that doesn't really exist. Their "specific reaction" is either woefully imperceptive or intentionally beligerant.

I'm actually a little surprised that distinction needs to be pointed out.

Quote:
I agree, and I think that's the opposite end of a spectrum that you could chart along Nichomachean lines. On one end is the view that literary appreciation should attempt to conform to some nebulous conception of what the author intended. On the other end is the view that all works of art either can or cannot be interpreted as a kind of allegory for what the reader already believes, and that such works are only valuable when they can and are made to conform. And as with Nichomachean spectrums, I'd say the best path is the middle path.


Appreciation of any work should attempt to grasp the artist's meaning as completely as possible. It should not attempt to distort the artist's intent in order to make a moral argument on behalf of the reader or viewer.


G

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Wed May 10, 2006 8:38 am
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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Greg:

Any links to articles where Card has stated his intent. I would like to read that and I think it would add to the discussion.

Thanks,

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




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Post Re: Ender's Game - Chapters 13 through 15
Quote:
Any links to articles where Card has stated his intent. I would like to read that and I think it would add to the discussion.


I'm going by Card's introduction in the Ender's Game revised edition. In it he plainly states that:

1) He sees fiction writing primarily as a tool with which to tell a story, and therefore the novel is largely free of any cryptic, layered meaning.

2) Ender Wiggin was created as the protagonist for Speaker for the Dead; Ender's Game was written mostly for the purpose of fleshing out his background.

I searched for that introduction on the 'net, but I haven't been able to find it. However, the revised edition of Ender's Game isn't a rarity or anything; anyone who wishes to read Card's statements on the subject can certainly go to a book store and do so.


G

"Dear Buddha: Please bring me a pony and a plastic rocket."

- Malcolm Reynolds, Serenity




Wed May 10, 2006 1:41 pm
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Moby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

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