Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BLOGS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed May 23, 2012 2:59 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] 
Dutch Christian Atheism 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Booktacular!

Gold Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3218
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 818
Thanked: 814 times in 612 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Dutch Christian Atheism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14417362

Dutch rethink Christianity for a doubtful world
By Robert Pigott
Religious affairs correspondent, Amsterdam
The Rev Klaas Hendrikse can offer his congregation little hope of life after death, and he's not the sort of man to sugar the pill.


The Exodus Church is part of the mainstream Protestant Church in the Netherlands
An imposing figure in black robes and white clerical collar, Mr Hendrikse presides over the Sunday service at the Exodus Church in Gorinchem, central Holland.

It is part of the mainstream Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN), and the service is conventional enough, with hymns, readings from the Bible, and the Lord's Prayer. But the message from Mr Hendrikse's sermon seems bleak - "Make the most of life on earth, because it will probably be the only one you get".

"Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death."

Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing.

God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience”

"When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience."

Mr Hendrikse describes the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life.

His book Believing in a Non-Existent God led to calls from more traditionalist Christians for him to be removed. However, a special church meeting decided his views were too widely shared among church thinkers for him to be singled out.

A study by the Free University of Amsterdam found that one-in-six clergy in the PKN and six other smaller denominations was either agnostic or atheist.

Klaas Hendrikse: "You don't have to believe that Jesus was physically resurrected"
The Rev Kirsten Slattenaar, Exodus Church's regular priest, also rejects the idea - widely considered central to Christianity - that Jesus was divine as well as human.

"I think 'Son of God' is a kind of title," she says. "I don't think he was a god or a half god. I think he was a man, but he was a special man because he was very good in living from out of love, from out of the spirit of God he found inside himself."

Mrs Slattenaar acknowledges that she's changing what the Church has said, but, she insists, not the "real meaning of Christianity".

She says that there "is not only one answer" and complains that "a lot of traditional beliefs are outside people and have grown into rigid things that you can't touch any more".

Dienie van Wingaarden, who's been going to Exodus Church for 20 years, is among lay people attracted to such free thinking.

Some believe that traditional Christianity has too restrictive a notion of the nature of God
"I think it's very liberating. [Klaas Hendrikse] is using the Bible in a metaphorical way so I can bring it to my own way of thinking, my own way of doing."

Wim De Jong says, "Here you can believe what you want to think for yourself, what you really feel and believe is true."

Churches in Amsterdam were hoping to attract such people with a recent open evening.

At the Old Church "in the hottest part of the red light district", the attractions included "speed-dating".

As skimpily dressed girls began to appear in red-lit windows in the streets outside, visitors to the church moved from table to table to discuss love with a succession of strangers.

Professor Hijme Stoeffels of the Free University in Amsterdam says it is in such concepts as love that people base their diffuse ideas of religion.

"In our society it's called 'somethingism'," he says. "There must be 'something' between heaven and earth, but to call it 'God', and even 'a personal God', for the majority of Dutch is a bridge too far.

"Christian churches are in a market situation. They can offer their ideas to a majority of the population which is interested in spirituality or some kind of religion."

To compete in this market of ideas, some Christian groups seem ready virtually to reinvent Christianity.

They want the Netherlands to be a laboratory for Christianity, experimenting with radical new ways of understanding the faith.

Churchgoer: "For me the service is very freeing"
Stroom ("Stream") West is the experiment devised by one church to reach out to the young people.

In an Amsterdam theatre young people contemplate the concept of eternity by spacing out a heap of rice grains individually across the floor.

"The difference from other churches is that we are… experimenting with the contents of the gospel," says Rikko Voorberg, who helps to run Stroom West. "Traditionally we bring a beautiful story and ask people to sit down listen and get convinced. This is the other way around."

Stroom focuses on people's personal search for God, not on the church's traditional black-and-white answers.

Rikko believes traditional Christianity places God in too restricted a box.

He believes that in a post-modern society that no longer has the same belief in certainty, there is an urgent need to "take God out of the box".

"The Church has to be alert to what is going on in society," he says. "It has to change to stay Christian. You can't preach heaven in the same way today as you did 2,000 years ago, and we have to think again what it is. We can use the same words and say something totally different."

Staphorst, in the Dutch Bible Belt, has a by-law against swearing
When I asked Rikko whether he believed Jesus was the son of God he looked uncomfortable.

"That's a very tough question. I'm not sure what it means," he says.

"People have very strict ideas about what it means. Some ideas I might agree with, some ideas I don't."

Such equivocation is anathema in Holland's Bible Belt, among the large number of people who live according to strict Christian orthodoxy.

In the quiet town of Staphorst about a quarter of the population attends the conservative Dutch Reformed Church every Sunday.

The town even has a by-law against swearing.

Its deputy mayor, Sytse de Jong, accuses progressive groups of trying to change Christianity to fit current social norms.

"When we get people into the Church by throwing Jesus Christ out of the Church, then we lose the core of Christianity. Then we are not reforming the institutions and attitudes but the core of our message."

But many churches are keen to work with anyone who believes in "something".

They believe that only through adaptation can their religion survive.

The young people at Stroom West write on plates the names of those things that prevent earth from being heaven - cancer, war, hunger - and destroy them symbolically.

The new Christianity is already developing its own ritual.



Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:03 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reads During Parties

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3892
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689
Thanked: 562 times in 454 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Dutch Christian Atheism
Quote:
They believe that only through adaptation can their religion survive.

That's probably the biggest part of it, institutional survival. These cultural Christians have a stake in preserving the tradition in some way. Some get their livelihoods from it and wouldn't know what else they can do. But it's also obviously the communal aspect that keeps this going despite the virtual atheism. There isn't ready substitute for the feeling of coming together that people get from their church. This also explains the growth of the Unitarian Church, whose creed contains no theism.



The following user would like to thank DWill for this post:
Robert Tulip
Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:01 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Booktacular!

Gold Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3218
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 818
Thanked: 814 times in 612 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Dutch Christian Atheism
txeseuy34 wrote:
this form of belief in Christianity makes Christianity even more worthless.


Hi txeseuy34, welcome. How I see it is that atheist Christianity has more integrity than supernatural belief. Christianity faced its first upheaval with the spatial recognition that the earth orbits the sun, and its second upheaval with the temporal recognition of evolution through natural selection. Christianity now faces a third upheaval, one of identity, with the recognition that the Gospels are fiction. In principle, this third upheaval just extends the recognition of the mythic nature of Biblical faith, which has already rejected the flat earth theory and creationism among sensible Christians.

Once we agree that Adam and Noah are mythical, it is a small step to see that Jesus Christ is also mythical. The essence of faith is the recognition that truth will set you free. It is hypocritical to claim that liberty can derive from a lie.

Far from making Christianity more worthless, this form of atheist belief has integrity, and shows how Christian faith can be resilient in adapting to scientific advance. Rebasing Christianity on knowledge rather than belief is the only way to transform religion to make it relevant, to sustain community and heritage by reconstructing its vision and purpose. It is leading to an authentic debate about core Christian principles, such as salvation, atonement and incarnation. Materialism does not make these metaphysical concepts meaningless, it just requires that their supernatural baggage be seen as pointing towards a deeper truth.



Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:13 am
Profile WWW
User avatar
Years of membership
BookTalk.org Moderator

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 699
Thanks: 99
Thanked: 240 times in 178 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: Dutch Christian Atheism
(Bumped via another thread)

That's interesting, I'm sure this is very much a minority view among Christians.

I personally don't understand the desire to salvage the myths if there's no supernatural belief. I understand that religion creates a community, it can be comforting, people can reflect on the meaning of life, etc. But the vast majority of believers are not going to accept the removal of traditional belief in God, so it's not like this is a pragmatic solution.

To me it's like saying, hey let's all believe in the cookie monster, and his peaceful reign of cookies shall bring happiness to us all.



Sun May 06, 2012 8:27 am
Profile Email
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


Celebrating 10 Years Online!

BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Support BookTalk.org 
BookTalk.org is being upgraded to a totally new design. This upgrade is expensive. Any support would be VERY helpful! See who supports us.
Make a donation

PEOPLE PAYING FOR OUR UPGRADE:

• afv - $10 May
• LevV - $50 March
• Dexter - $10 March
• supernova38 - $25 March
• Oblivion - $20 March
• jheimlich - $20 February
• Robert Tulip - $50 February
• giselle - $50 January


Featured Books

Recent Blogging 

WORMING TABLETS AND WESTFIELD

24th March

Children here need worming regularly, and  I think I need to buy more worming tablets, so while my friends sit on the beach, I have to catch bush taxis up to the… more

Posted: 17 days ago
by heledd

TUESDAY 20TH MARCH

The children have a long way to walk to the nearest primary school. At the moment they are in temporary accommodation, with volunteer teachers. There is community land available, a… more

Posted: 19 days ago
by heledd

The 12th Disciple $3.99 (USD) on Kindle...

The price of The 12th Disciple has been updated to $3.99 for Kindle readers. The book is still available for free to borrow for Amazon Prime members.  To be competitive, and s… more

Posted: 22 days ago
by 12th disciple

The 12th Disciple reviews...

The 12th Disciple has been reviewed by two different people on Amazon. They purchased the Kindle edition; one in the US, one in the UK. One review was 5-stars (US) and the oth… more

Posted: 31 days ago
by 12th disciple

The Stages In and Out of Life

From the book; The Joys of Live Alchemy

Every human being experiences distinct stages in their lives. First, birth... Second, learning to walk and talk…Third, learning the rule… more

Posted: 38 days ago
by michaellevys

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 38 days ago
by michaellevys

Cutting Truths - Book Review

This review is from: Cutting Truths: Fifty Enlightening Slices of Life (Paperback) 178 pages ... 5.0 out of 5 stars     Sleeper Cells Awaken,

By Julie Clayton… more

Posted: 39 days ago
by michaellevys

Nonviolence Quotes

From Gandhi:

“Anger is the enemy of nonviolence and pride is the monster that swallows it up.”

“An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.”

“I have nothing ne… more

Posted: 43 days ago
by jamessanderson

Harry Potter Enthusiast

I'd like to say I've been reading Harry Potter since the day the world renown series appeared on the scene.  Unfortunately, the truth is I began reading Harry Potter… more

Posted: 45 days ago
by kinse1na

Good Friday, Better Saturday, Blessed Sunday

Easter teaches many of us the importance of redemption and resurrection. Regardless of what faith people follow, the story of Jesus Christ has been told in many languages in many c… more

Posted: 46 days ago
by 12th disciple

Let The Blogging Begin!

Our Book Talk will begin on Wednesday, May 2nd. I look forward to hearing about your learning and classroom experiences with Number Talks as it all unfolds...

Posted: 51 days ago
by msbeth

MONDAY 12TH MARCH. COMMONWEALTH DAY

Today is Commonwealth Day. All the children come in their various ethnic clothes and bring food traditional to their groups.

We have Fula, Mandinka, Manjargo, Wollof , Jola… more

Posted: 52 days ago
by heledd

CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE

NONOPPOSITIONAL NONVIOLENCE “The minute you conquer the fear of death, at that moment you are free. I submit to you that if a man hasn’t discovered something that he will die f… more

Posted: 53 days ago
by jamessanderson

FEBRUARY 26TH, SUNDAY

Yesterday, when I went to feed Jeni the donkey, I noticed swarms of bees entering Ebrima’s house through the cracks in the door. We both had a look, but he didn’t open his door… more

Posted: 53 days ago
by heledd

Exciting News...Now You Can Order Blessings of the Father - Book One on sale at only $4.98 on B&N.com!

Hello fellow followers of the written word:

I'm pleased to tell you that there is finally a downloadable epub version for Book One of my saga; Blessings of the Father … more

Posted: 78 days ago
by mitchreed

What Number Talks Is All About

Whether you want to implement number talks but are unsure of how to begin or have experience but want more guidance in crafting purposeful problems, this dynamic multimedia resourc… more

Posted: 79 days ago
by msbeth

Feeling Entitled Is Not Always A Bad Thing

Do you feel entitled? For years I have listened to and, in some instances, complained that some people in America feel entitled. For years I have watched as these people are portra… more

Posted: 79 days ago
by life is a business

Free Kindle promotion very successful for The 12th Disciple

On Fat Tuesday and Ash Wednesday of 2012, The 12th Disciple was free to Kindle users on both days. In all, about 550 worldwide Kindle users downloaded a copy of the book.

The 12… more

Posted: 80 days ago
by 12th disciple

Sacred Are the Brave

‘Sacred Are the Brave’ a collection of short stories about the nonviolent revolutions 1986-1989 is now available in Kindle. Each of the nine stories has characters who are just … more

Posted: 83 days ago
by jamessanderson

The Weekend Trippers

The Weekend Trippers’ is the true story of Rfn Ted Taylor and his part in the heroic last stand in Calais May 1940. The Weekend Trippers is based on Ted’s diaries written at the… more

Posted: 86 days ago
by carolemct






BookTalk.org Chat Room 
Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat [0]

Chat Room Always Open!

Tell your friends when to meet you
in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.

If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.






BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Moby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank