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PatrickSMcNally
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 Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:09 am Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| I'm sure you believe in some of the above or maybe in UFO's, astral projection, astrology, ESP, reincarnation, telepathy, and other such extraordinary claims. Am I hitting the nail on the head? |
You're as far offbase as anyone could ever be. Why should I believe in reincarnation? Why should I believe that it was ever possible to cremate 6000+ bodies on a daily basis at Auschwitz using at most 46 cremation muffles each of which is capable of handling at most one body per hour? They're examples of mysticism. If you want a better example of something close to astrology you might open up Rabbi Benjamin Blech's book THE SECRETS OF HEBREW WORDS to page 214. Blech discusses some ancient Hebrew prophecies of "ye shall return" about returning to Israel and informs that the character "vav" is missing from the correct Hebrew spelling of "ye shall return." He then goes on to explain that in numerological terms the character "vav" has the value of six and that this omission of the character with the value six was a prophecy of the alleged Holocaust. Now that's mysticism akin to UFOs.
In fact as early as 1900 Zionist organizations were carrying the number six million. Go back to the NEW YORK TIMES of June 11, 1900, and read the report on Rabbi Stephen Wise's address from the previous day:
"There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism."
The six million number was being circulated by Zionist groups for some decades before Hitler even came to power. In the context of WWII propaganda that number was converted into the basis for a story of atrocity-mongering. UFO believers might tell you that Wise was seeing the future as a prophet. I'm simply pointing out that Wise made this number up based upon the kind of religious mysticism which Blech finds in the missing "vav" character. |
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Daisy
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Wow...
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Wow, this is really deep.
I had heard Holocaust deniers exist, but haven't come across one until now. Aside from that annoying Irani dictator, I mean.
It seems as though I have been fascinated by the horror of the Holocaust since I was a child. I remember choosing it for class projects as early as 4th grade.
I have read and seen so much in my lifetime documenting the events, and had my heart break at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.
The Nazi's are known for the meticulous documentation, and this recent development will provide significantly more evidence in the public eye than what currently exists:
| Quote: |
| If you Goggle a bit, you'll find Germany recently opened the world's largest archive of holocaust documents. The Nazi's recorded everything in excruciating detail. There are something like 16 miles of files in six buildings - an Everest of evidence that deniers cannot overcome... |
Although I suppose PatrickSMcNally and the dictator of Iran will still be unswayed. As unfathomable as this seems to me.  |
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Chris OConnor 
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:15 am Post subject:
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| Ok, let's toss out the 6,000,000 number and go with a more conservative 1,000,000. Does this change anything? Would it be any less disgusting to gas 1,000,000 Jews? Seriously, answer this. |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| Ok, let's toss out the 6,000,000 number and go with a more conservative 1,000,000. Does this change anything? Would it be any less disgusting to gas 1,000,000 Jews? Seriously, answer this. |
Well there's no evidence that gas chambers ever existed, except for delousing chambers used for disinfecting clothes and the like. There were, of course, things similar to the free fire zones in Vietnam. For example, someone walking around outside of certain ghetto areas could be shot down freely without being identified. But gas chambers, no. About one million Jews, though if we allow for a margin of error in statistics it might be as high as 1.5 million, died from all causes in the Second World War, including combat deaths in the Soviet Army and the like. About 300,000 of these occurred within the concentration camp system, with perhaps another 200,000 non-Jews perishing within the areas of the camp.
A simple introduction to some of these issues is given by Germar Rudolf
http://germarrudolf.com/work/dth/fndstats.html
and Jurgen Graf:
http://germarrudolf.com/work/dth/fndGraf.html
Personally I never liked what I'd heard about the US Army doing in Vietnam and doubt that I'd like any other army doing anything similar if I were of a different nationality. But the claims coming from the Holocaust industry have consistently emphasized a marked difference between the alleged Nazi genocide with gas chambers and run of the mill atrocities committed by occupying powers such as the US was in Vietnam. So it's only natural to seek to clarify what precisely upholds this distinction, if anything. |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Wow...
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| Daisy wrote: |
The Nazi's are known for the meticulous documentation, and this recent development will provide significantly more evidence in the public eye than what currently exists:
| Quote: |
| If you Goggle a bit, you'll find Germany recently opened the world's largest archive of holocaust documents. The Nazi's recorded everything in excruciating detail. There are something like 16 miles of files in six buildings - an Everest of evidence that deniers cannot overcome... |
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You obviously have not read very much on the subject at all. If you had you'd be aware that such orthodox authors as Leon Poliakov (author of Harvest of Hate) have maintained that the one single place where the Third Reich failed to produce any documentation was on the "campaign to exterminate the Jews... No document remains, perhaps none has ever existed..."
It has been acknowledged for several decades that no documents existed which clearly described a methodical plan to exterminate Jews. Instead the claim, from the orthodox authors, not the revisionists, has been that a code language was used throughout all documents of the Third Reich and that consequently the documents all speak of "evacuation of the Jews," "eastern settlements" and the like, without ever mentioning gas chambers, but that this is all a code language.
Regarding the opening of more documentary archives, I've listened to the reports of such and haven't heard anything which even remotely suggests that these documents have anything to support the claims of either gas chambers or an ethnic extermination plan. The reports which I've encountered that describe something of content about what is in the archives only point to the existence of a police state where neighbors could spy on each other, as if that's news. Not a single report has yet suggested that any new documentation in these archives will alter the judgment which Leon Poliakov made decades ago that no documentation exists which supports the story of an attempted extermination of Jews. |
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psyops
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject:
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| "Revisionism" IS history. Without "revisionism", empirical history would be impossible. It is through the empirical practice of "revisionism" that Holocaust historians at Yad Vashem have revised the number of Auschwitz dead from their 1960's figure of four million, down to the 1.2 million figure they advocate today. This stellar example of Holocaust revisionism was affected because over half a century, a preponderance of emerging historical evidence supported the lower figure, thus Holocaust historians revised their estimate of the number of people murdered in Auschwitz by nearly 3 million. These Jewish Holocaust historians at Israel's national Holocaust museum aren't "Nazis" or "anti-Semitic rednecks", nor are they some sinister "hate group" because they engage in the empirical practice of Holocaust revisionism; they're simply professional historians doing what historians do. Please try and remember that "revisionism" is as indispensable an empirical tool to the professional historian as is the scientific method to a chemist or physiologist. |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:
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| psyops, are you also "PatrickSMcNally?" |
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psyops
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| psyops, are you also "PatrickSMcNally?" |
Chris OConner, are you also Jethro Bodine? |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject:
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| My question wasn't a joke. Are you the same person? |
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psyops
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| My question wasn't a joke. Are you the same person? |
No. |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject:
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| I can confirm that this new participant is not the same person as myself. |
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LanDroid
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject:
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PatrickSMcNally claims It has been acknowledged for several decades that no documents existed which clearly described a methodical plan to exterminate Jews.
...Regarding the opening of more documentary archives, I've listened to the reports of such and haven't heard anything which even remotely suggests that these documents have anything to support the claims of either gas chambers or an ethnic extermination plan. |
I suppose one might understand the first statement given the massive document archives were just beginning to be opened in 2006. However the second statement makes no sense.
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The 21-year-old Russian sat before a clerk of the U.S. Army Judge Advocate’s office, describing the furnaces at Auschwitz, the Nazi death camp where he had been a prisoner until a few weeks previously.
“I saw with my own eyes how thousands of Jews were gassed daily and thrown by the hundreds into pits where Jews were burning,” he said. “I saw how little children were killed with sticks and thrown into the fire,” he continued. Blood flowed in gutters, and “Jews were thrown in and died there”; more were taken off trucks and cast alive into the flames.
Today the Holocaust is known in dense and painful detail. Yet the young Russian’s words leap off the faded, onionskin page with a rawness that transports the reader back to April 1945, when World War II was still raging and the world still knew little about gas chambers, genocide and the Final Solution.
The two pages of testimony, in a file randomly plucked off a shelf, are among millions of documents held by the International Tracing Service, or ITS, an arm of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15791203/
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There are many miles of documents like that one to go through.
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The files will support new research from other sources showing that the network of concentration camps, ghettos and labor camps was nearly three times more extensive than previously thought.
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In contrast to one of your claims above:
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| To operate history’s greatest slaughter, the Nazis created a bureaucracy that meticulously recorded the arrest, movement and death of each victim. |
Here's some more recent information:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iRhHirCrKN26EIZcgr8oNqj0dF_QD91I1U0 80 |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:41 am Post subject:
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[quote="LanDroid"]the second statement makes no sense.
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| The 21-year-old Russian sat before a clerk of the U.S. Army Judge Advocate’s office, describing the furnaces at Auschwitz, |
This is old stuff and has absolutely nothing to do with any valid new documentation from German archives. The Allies held a show trial after the war where a multitude of testimonies alleging such things as the use of steam chambers as a mass-execution device in Treblinka were claimed. The bulk of testimonies have repeatedly been shown as inconsistent both in terms of their internal logic and with known external facts, particularly whenever they veer into gas chamber teritory. The more consistent evidence supports nothing more than the occurrence of a counter-insurgency war in eastern Europe with attendant brutality similar to My Lai, as well plans for a mass-deportation of Jews by force to the eastern ends of Europe. When I pointed out that nothing appearing in the news thus far about new documentation become available has supported the gas chamber thesis I was referring to the fact no one has been able to find any German documents detailing the use of gas chambers as a mass-execution device, although it's known that the Germans kept meticulous documentary records of everything they did. Your quote of the testimony of a Russian prisoner in preparation for the show-trial does not consistent German documentary evidence of gas chambers in operation. |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:52 am Post subject:
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| LanDroid wrote: |
In contrast to one of your claims above:
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| To operate history’s greatest slaughter, the Nazis created a bureaucracy that meticulously recorded the arrest, movement and death of each victim. |
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Statements like this are often tossed around informally in media announcements. But as I noted with Leon Poliakov already, and the same point could be made by citing Raul Hilberg or Christopher Browning or many other official academic representatives of the Holocaust industry, it has long been admitted in more professional treatments of the subject that any documentation of the alleged gas chambers is completely lacking. Not only that, but no documentation exists which clearly identifies the physical extermination of Jews as a goal. My documents speak of evacuating Jews to the east, and some make theatrical references to the annihilation of Judaism, but no part of the documentary record lays out a clear unambiguous plan for the extermination of Jews using gas chambers. The fact that you may find a few casual media quotes which seem to imply otherwise means nothing. The academic professionals such Hilberg or Poliakov have had to admit that there is no such documentation. When one gets down to the nitty-gritty of what the documents actually show, they show a police state in operation "that meticulously recorded the arrest, movement and death of each victim" without ever leaving any documentation behind to support the hoax of the gas chambers. In other words, they never existed and the documentation is consistent with this. |
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LanDroid
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:47 am Post subject:
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| Do you think the academic representatives you mentioned have combed the recently opened archives? Sounds like their statements about lack of documentation were made while these archives were still closed. One thing they're learning from the new documents is the scope of the system was much larger than previously thought, from 5000 to 7000 detention centers to perhaps as many as 20000. |
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