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COSMOS - Episode 3

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ant

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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:Why would scientific textbooks about scientific discoveries in ancient and middle ages omit context and original motivations? And how would such omissions alter our student's impressions of scientific activities/practice?
Do you have a sample to show that they did in fact omit context? Sorry for not taking your word for it.

But if they did omit context, there could be many reasons. Perhaps it costs money to print every additional page, so the information is abbreviated and streamlined as possible. Perhaps the textbook publishers and school boards wanted a strict separation between science and other topics, so left history to the history classes. But something tells me there is context.

As far as how it would impact student's impressions, that's anyone's guess. I'm not sure how you'd answer that for a single child, let alone the aggregate.

Unfortunately I do not have an example.



Putting aside the truth or falsity, religion, as an integral part of culture (ie community, charity, values, quality of life) is not going anywhere anytime soon.
Being that the historical record demonstrates science and religion shared a symbiotic relationship (and still does for many practicing scientists), attempting greater context when discussing the history of science would foster improved relationships in the future.
It couldn't hurt.
Last edited by ant on Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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ant wrote:Being that the historical record demonstrates science and religion shared a symbiotic relationship
I think you're being delusional here. There is nothing symbiotic about half the country believing in a young earth and creationism. Evolution is part of the history between science and religion. That's an antagonistic stance. Regarding the more distant historical relationship, you can't say they were symbiotic. They co-existed. I think a strong argument can be made that science arose 'in spite of' religion, rather than because it was fostered by some symbiotic relationship with religion.

Giving examples of religious scientists does nothing for the argument either. Religion had a monopoly on institutions of higher learning, but that doesn't mean institutions of higher learning wouldn't have existed without religion. In fact, ancient Rome serves as evidence that they would have. To support your idea of a symbiotic relationship, you'd have to compare history with religion against history without religion, which is impossible. Do you think a history without religion would have seen faster or slower progress of science since ancient Rome? Whatever answer you give is pure speculation.
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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There is nothing symbiotic about half the country believing in a young earth and creationism.

You have a serious lack of historical familiarity here that can only be the result of a total disinterest in the history of science.

Seriously.
You really are anemic here.

Short of giving you a history of science lesson, or forwarding you several good books, I leave you to your own devices at this point.

Thanks
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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ant wrote:You have a serious lack of historical familiarity here that can only be the result of a total disinterest in the history of science.
If you'd actually engage with my points rather than trying to insult me, you'd see that the only historical claims I'm making are agnostic ones. You're the one claiming symbiosis. Dig into the points I made and debate against them, and maybe it will click.

But regardless of the historical relationship, the current relationship is not symbiotic. Young Earth and Creationism are the only examples needed to show this. If you consider the rise of evolution to be part of the history of science and religion, then your point is simply false.

EDIT - I suppose I did call you delusional, sorry.
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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ant wrote:. . . Short of giving you a history of science lesson, or forwarding you several good books, I leave you to your own devices at this point.
By all means, let's see a list of these books . . .
-Geo
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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ant wrote:NDT (COSMOS) states “That pre-scientific world, that world ruled by fear, was poised on the edge of a revolution”

The claim that the world was ruled by fear prior to Newton is totally false.
Totally true in fact.

A book bearing nihil obstat and imprimatur, http://www.reu.org/public/chrysos/life.txt relates that John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople in the fourth century AD, tells a story of the extremely repressive culture regarding diversity of thought at that time. This story should be considered to indicate evidence of a much older and subsequent repressive attitude, surviving until the scientific liberation brought by the rational enlightenment.

The fourth century saw destruction of classical wisdom on such a scale that the Euphrates allegedly ran black with the ink of dumped books. Our records of social debate on religion in the early Christian times are scant, reflecting the Orwellian reality that the history was written by the victors, who assiduously destroyed all work deemed heretical. Gnosticism was a primary heresy, and so was targeted, much as the kulaks later were for liquidation as a class.
“The Emperor Valens tried to fight against paganism as much as he could. In the year 374 he also decided to begin the fight against the superstitions which had remained deep in the hearts of the people since pagan times, and which were fostered and played upon by charlatans and impostors. He commanded that all books of magic should be burned and that all magicians and sorcerers, as well as authors of books on magic, should be punished by death. An author or possessor of any such book would rid himself of his dangerous treasure by the simplest method, namely by throwing it quickly into the Orontes River. If he was seen doing this, he was convicted of magic practices and punished by death. Once Chrysostom was walking along by the Orontes with a friend, on the way to divine service at a nearby martyr's shrine. They saw something white floating on the water, and thought it was a piece of linen. The friend jumped into the water and pulled out a book. He saw at once that it was one of the forbidden books on magic. In the same moment a soldier passed by. If he had seen the book in their hands, both of them would have been lost; for who would have believed them if they had said that they took it out of the river? Pale with fear, his companion hid the book under his garments. By the Providence of God, the soldier did not notice them. He passed on and they were able to throw the book back into the water unnoticed.
So, people may well ask, why would anyone imagine that content in religious books that could be deemed to relate to magical claims might be censored? And why would anyone imagine that such censorship may have had a long history, beginning well before the late empire?
The Edict of Theodosius in 380 resulted in all non-orthodox people in the Empire losing the right to meet, ordain priests, or spread their beliefs. Scientists living under such a dispensation would have motive to conceal their views. The actual context of the Biblical war zone and the ancient world more broadly was that scientific groups such as the Pythagoreans were renowned for concealing their knowledge, as Copernicus attests in his discussion of precession, a topic which it seems is the grand-daddy of secret knowledge.
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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The fourth century saw destruction of classical wisdom on such a scale that the Euphrates allegedly ran black with the ink of dumped books.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:appl:
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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geo wrote:
ant wrote:. . . Short of giving you a history of science lesson, or forwarding you several good books, I leave you to your own devices at this point.
By all means, let's see a list of these books . . .

Thank you for asking.

A good start would be The Beginnings of Western Science - The European Tradition in Philosophical, Religious, and Institutional Context, 600 B.C. to A.D. 1450 (by David Lindberg)

Unfortunately, it may not be as entertaining as Robert Tulip's "rivers ran black with ink" pseudo history.
Nor does it tell tales of atheistic naturalists huddled in dark basements practicing "atheistic science" fearing for their lives.

:slap:
Last edited by ant on Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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Nor does it tell tales of atheistic naturalists huddled in dark basements practicing "atheistic science" fearing for their lives.
That's your own personal strawman buddy.
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Re: COSMOS - Episode 3

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The Christian destruction of pagan wisdom is attested in this time line, extracted from Demolish Them! by Vlassis R. Rassias.

I suspect some of its claims would be contested by apologists, but the general drift is clear and inexorable, and incompatible with claims that Christendom was compatible with reason.

On the Euphrates running black, that is a reference to the Arab destruction of Persian libraries in the first millennium. This process was well underway under Christendom, as per Chrysostom's mention of throwing books in rivers.

Extracts from Pagan Destruction Chronology
Source: Demolish Them! Vlassis R. Rassias

314 Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks the gentiles (non-Christians). The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.

335 Constantine orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers."

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople.

354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire.

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.

361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

364 Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods

370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire.

372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New prohibition of all divination methods. The term "pagan" (pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, "peasants") is introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.

375 The temple of god Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.

380 On 27th February, Christianism becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman empire by an edict of the emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:

All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter. The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict, Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 years old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

381 On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights the Christians that return back to the pagan religion. In all the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and Libraries are looted or burned down.

385 to 388 Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop "Saint" Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

388 Public talks on religious subjects are outlawed by Theodosius.

389 to 390 All non-Christian date-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and pagan temples, and lynch the pagans. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against non-Christian peoples, turns the temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the temple of Zeus and burlesques the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to pagan temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy persecutions all around the empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, pagans, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock themselves inside the fortified temple of god Serapis (the Serapeion). After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it, burn its famous library and profane the cult images.


396 edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated as high treason.

398 The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to everybody, including to the Christian bishops, the study of the books of the pagans.

405 John Chrysostom sends hordes of gray dressed monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.

408 Private ownership of pagan sculpture is outlawed. New heavy persecutions against the pagans and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the pagans are also persecuted. "Saint" Augustine massacres hundreds of protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409 Edict orders all methods of divination to be punished by death.

435 death penalty for all "heretics" and pagans


448 Theodosius II orders all non-Christian books to be burned.

450 All the temples of Aphrodisias (the City of the Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and all its libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stavroupolis (City of the Cross).
528 Justinian orders the execution—by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts or cutting to pieces by iron nails—of all who practice "sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the pagans ("the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes").

529 Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its property confiscated.

556 Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last non-Christians of the city and burn all the private libraries down.
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