There is a paradoxical aspect to our behavior. If we have free will, then why do we act against our reasoning? Why doesn’t our decision to refrain from eating a donut often falter when we see a donut shop?

Obviously, we have a large spectrum of urges that influence our behavior. We each like to think that it’s only a small portion of our behavior that is influenced by urges that have the ability to override our rationality. But the more we dig into this issue, the more we realize it’s a large portion of our behavior that’s influenced by our urges(or emotions). The common modern analogy is that we’re each a rider on the back of an elephant.

How much actual control we have over our behaviors was once thought large, but is now considered small. I think at some point we will realize that there is no rider at all. But that’s another discussion.

My point in all this has to do with sin. Thousands of years ago, the paradox of controlling urges that seemingly override free will had no good explanation. Where does this temptation to steal your neighbor’s wife come from if we know that it’s wrong? The primitive answer is that it is sin, a metaphysical force that affects all people.

Without understanding how the human mind could operate within the boundaries of causation, sin is an understandable metaphysical explanation. Like lightning bolts from a god, it's a product of the times.

reminds me a lot of the subconscious. You find yourself asking, why the hell did i do that?

it may be that the conscious minds idea of what was going to be done was sabotaged by the subconscious.

the beast that rises from the abyss.

then theres the physiological urges override the finer points of refined and respectful conduct.

the elephant doesn't care how much trouble the rider gets into, it just wants those peanuts and it wants them now!

bible verses from romans 7

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin.

the elephant and the rider having a real set to there

but then again

And Miriam sang this song: "Sing to the LORD, for he has triumphed gloriously; he has hurled both horse and rider into the sea."

Here is a tidbit I wrote in another post.

Everyone "sins" because the rules we set for ourselves are idealistic, not achievable in reality. Especially the minor ones. That we all break our own rules is algorithmic(or is it probabilistic), not supernatural. What's peculiar about us is that our guilt and shame and embarrassment are cumulative to a degree. They weigh us down so much over the years, and we need a release. If you believe some supernatural power can forgive you, it helps. But the mechanisms are all natural. Sin is a cover word for the mathematical remainder of normal behavior.

The idea that having your sins forgiven releases a built up pressure I think is a powerful one. The same ends could be achieved if we had a society who unanimously ascribed to a very forgiving set of ethics. The shame and embarrassment are still poignant, but the lasting effects would be attenuated by knowing that others forgive you above and beyond a normal society. (worldbuilding)

Not that I've ever had much of an issue with it. I do the best I can, and followhumanist principles rather than the ten commandments. Being altruistic by listening closely to your empathy leads you to follow the commandments without having anything shoved down your throat.

I've always found it a bit disturbing that so many people require external pressure to behave morally. Threats of hell or promises of heaven, or the abstract desire to win brownie points with Jesus. If you use such things to guide your behavior, what happens if your belief wanes? We have all the necessary mechanisms within us to behave morally, but it requires us to understand ourselves better and not be guided by fantasy.

This sort of segues into talking about the percentage of atheists in prison. The vast majority of prisoners in the US are theistic. The only point I'm looking to make here is that believing in god doesn't necessarily mean you behave in a more moral way than those who don't believe. In fact, if you believe that your sins will be forgiven, how can any rule be seen as inviolable? Admitting that we could possibly break any rule under the right circumstances, so must be diligent, is the more honest lifestyle.

Interbane wrote:There is a paradoxical aspect to our behavior. If we have free will, then why do we act against our reasoning? Why doesn’t our decision to refrain from eating a donut often falter when we see a donut shop?

Obviously, we have a large spectrum of urges that influence our behavior. We each like to think that it’s only a small portion of our behavior that is influenced by urges that have the ability to override our rationality. But the more we dig into this issue, the more we realize it’s a large portion of our behavior that’s influenced by our urges(or emotions). The common modern analogy is that we’re each a rider on the back of an elephant.

Robery Wright uses the same donut example in his Buddha course. The evolutionary psychology answer is that we've evolved to like high calorie items. A "moderation" component didn't evolve because things like donuts weren't available in our natural environment. So a humanist approach to your "sin" is to recognize that much of our cravings may be out of step with our modern environment.

The way our behavior deviates due to the modern environment would be far more complex than food. In fact, I think our inability to resist temptation regarding food could be considered one component. Isn’t gluttony a sin?

There is a grey area, somewhere between “proper” behavior and “lawful” behavior. It’s where we breach etiquette. This is a good place to study if we’re talking about how behavior deviates due to environment.

Imagine yourself driving in the fast lane of the Interstate. You cut off the car next to you, just after the driver hit the gas to prevent you from changing lanes in front of him. There is a bit of honking, then you both go your separate ways.

Now imagine that you’re in a convoy with only family members, or people who you know personally. They are members of your “tribe”. The key difference, and the reason you would be polite, is that the mechanisms of gratitude versus shame would come into play with a person you are familiar with. You wouldn’t have had to cut the person off, because he’d have immediately responded to your turning signal by slowing down and letting you change lanes.

I remember pulling into a gas station one time a few years back. A person was leaving the pump and nearly smashed into my front side panel. He scowled and I scowled, then we recognized each other. In a flash, there was a bit of embarrassment from both of us, followed by sheepish smiles.

The moral mechanisms can and do guide etiquette, but only if we let them. Some people can suppress the mechanisms, but it’s much more difficult to do when there are members of your tribe around.

I think most of us could similarly suppress our moral emotions when it comes to unlawful behavior. The mechanism at play here is slightly different, the fear of getting caught, mixed with more or less empathy depending on the person.

What we need, collectively, is a new bible based on understanding rather than supernatural make-believe. Something that is truthful enough to last for a great long time, and has enough wisdom to give us happiness in spite of our failures. The key would be to guide us to live as if we were a billion man tribe.

I was trying to think of examples of how our emotions and reactions might lead us astray in the modern environment. Road rage seems a likely candidate, a rather useless reaction and in some cases deadly. It's interesting to consider that road rage may come into play only when the confrontation is with a total stranger. Other mechanisms come into play to ameliorate our anger if you recognize the other person.

It's interesting to see how people can so easily rationalize theft if it involves taking something from a large corporation or if there is virtually no chance of getting caught. So your new Bible would have to address this, a kind of bias. We cheat if we can get away with it. But we should at least do it with our eyes wide open and without buying into whatever rationalization our elephant driver comes up to justify it. Theft is theft. What kind of person do I want to be?

"...freewill..."

Free from what, exactly?

Nice.

I like these thoughts, Interbane.

I think you've got something there.

"...freewill..."

Free from what, exactly?

Free from control. However, I'd warn that our understanding of control may be shallow. If you use a reason as justification for action, aren't you under the control of that reason? Or perhaps the source of information that lead to your development of that reason? Control is a tricky word.

Why do you ask? There is much more in this thread to engage with.

Interbane wrote:I'd warn that our understanding of control may be shallow. If you use a reason as justification for action, aren't you under the control of that reason? Or perhaps the source of information that lead to your development of that reason? Control is a tricky word.

Precisely.

Interbane wrote:There is much more in this thread to engage with.