coming out as an atheist

lady of shallot · Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:15 pm

The older I get the more important I think it is to kind of stand up and be counted. Do you of the atheistic position share your philosophy with others? My family knows I am an atheist but while they don't mind sharing their church going beliefs and activities with me they don't want to hear anything I have to say.

I have, but not often, told others. I have found the response to be shock. How do you all handle this or do you just ignore such discussions?

Squelch · Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:10 pm

You may well find that much of the shock is simply at finding out that your views differ to what they thought.

I think the best way to have them listen is to show them by example. If they see that you're just as peaceable, caring and moral as they are, then they'll see that there's value in what you believe, just as there's value in what they believe.

If nothing else, it's worth remembering that really they're atheists too - of the thousands of gods, you only believe in one less than them!

johnson1010 · Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:48 pm

Most people give me a big ol surprised look and then sometimes try to convince me i am wrong about being an atheist. Not that atheism is wrong, but that i have mis-diagnosed my belief, somehow.

"An atheist wouldn't believe that" or "Atheists don't have any beliefs" are things i have heard more than a few times.

I am more than happy to discuss my lack of belief, as it only seems natural. Those who know that i am not superstitious usually look at me witha bit of fear around christmas time though, like i am going to storm over and tear down the chrsitmas tree, or knock over the feast table.

Mostly the relatives my age who know that i am not superstitious don't want me to bring it up to the elder members of my family, like my grandmother. I don't go out of my way, but if somebody asks me my thoughts, i tell them candidly.

Funny story.

This last christmas my niece was hanging around while i spoke with my mother, who had asked if we were celebrating christmas this year.

I said, i don't think Jesus ever existed, so why would i throw him a month-long birthday party?

My niece got all spook-faced. that face people make when they are telling you a ghost story that they half-believe, or telling you how to handle being abducted by aliens, and she said that because i didn't believe Jesus was going to send us a bad winter storm.

She has him confused with Khione.

johnson1010 · Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:53 pm


	Quote: The older I get the more important I think it is to kind of stand up and be counted.

There is an applicable part of the video found on this link, which talks about people who hold opinions which they believe to be part of the minority do not volunteer that information, re-inforcing the false indication of 100% oposition to their postion.

Even if the sample group is divided 50/50, nobody wanting to be singled out, nobody raises their hand, and all the people who agree with them see this lack of agreement as confirmation that they hold a minority postiion, even when they do not.

fight-conformity-come-on-everybody-s-doing-it-t9959.html

lady of shallot · Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:27 pm


	Quote: I think the best way to have them listen is to show them by example. If they see that you're just as peaceable, caring and moral as they are, then they'll see that there's value in what you believe, just as there's value in what they believe.

Well of course my sisters know all my characteristics. I don't think they think there is any value in what I believe (or disbelieve.) I also don't see much value in what they believe either. It gives them a place to go Sunday morning and a sense of community but that is not belief.

Their belief is in what the Bible says and if I also value that then why am I an atheist?

As far as other people go. . . mostly it is common for people to make an off the cuff remark about their religious beliefs. . .this is strangers I mean. for instance on some of the sites I visit, people will have a tag line, something like this. . . "I am what I am because he is who he is!" Some sort of religious thing or they will make reference to praying or some sort of remark, like "God never gives you a burden that is too heavy too bear"

Atheists mainly have to remain mute in these instances. When what I want to say is there is no God. And also that people often have burdens too heavy to bear & they die!

oblivion · Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:59 am

I certainly don't bring it up.....it's a bit like constantly explaining that you don't believe in the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, etc. But, if I am in an environment where theists feel it necessary to talk about their beliefs or, even worse, proselytize, then, yes! I most certainly and adamantly mention atheism. I have just as much right to discuss what I don't believe as they do discussing what they believe.

Squelch · Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:22 am

lady of shallot wrote:


	Quote: I think the best way to have them listen is to show them by example. If they see that you're just as peaceable, caring and moral as they are, then they'll see that there's value in what you believe, just as there's value in what they believe.

Well of course my sisters know all my characteristics. I don't think they think there is any value in what I believe (or disbelieve.) I also don't see much value in what they believe either. It gives them a place to go Sunday morning and a sense of community but that is not belief.

Their belief is in what the Bible says and if I also value that then why am I an atheist?

As far as other people go. . . mostly it is common for people to make an off the cuff remark about their religious beliefs. . .this is strangers I mean. for instance on some of the sites I visit, people will have a tag line, something like this. . . "I am what I am because he is who he is!" Some sort of religious thing or they will make reference to praying or some sort of remark, like "God never gives you a burden that is too heavy too bear"

Atheists mainly have to remain mute in these instances. When what I want to say is there is no God. And also that people often have burdens too heavy to bear & they die!

You can agree with a lot of what the bible says and still be an atheist - after all most atheists think we should treat others fairly and care for those in need. Being an atheist doesn't mean a blanket diagreement with the bible, just as being a christian, for most at least, doesn't mean a blanket, literal agreement with it. I think that if any atheist can understand that - even a very radical atheist, if you want to be one! - then they can realise that there is value in what the other side believes,and common ground to work from.

It's also the route to a respectful and productive relationship. If both sides acknowldge that the other has a valid position and deserves the right to hold it if they want to then there can be a productive discussion. If we start by calling names, misrepresenting their position and being abusive then yes, there will be conflict. That's not a route to living peacefully with each other - but there again, perhaps those who do that should ask themselves whether anyone is likely to want to change their view to match those of someone who's so angry and unhappy that they call complete strangers names and pick fights with them?

lady of shallot · Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:32 pm

Thanks for your response Squelch. I did not know there were levels of atheism. To me it is just a rejection of mythological beliefs. Maybe I should explain that I am 76 and not a new kid on the block in my beliefs. The only route I have found to a "respectful and productive relationship" is to remain silent about atheism.

Squelch said:
" If both sides acknowldge that the other has a valid position and deserves the right to hold it if they want to then there can be a productive discussion. If we start by calling names, misrepresenting their position and being abusive then yes, there will be conflict. That's not a route to living peacefully with each other - but there again, perhaps those who do that should ask themselves whether anyone is likely to want to change their view to match those of someone who's so angry and unhappy that they call complete strangers names and pick fights with them?"

I'm not sure I understand the above. Are you suggesting that you think this is the way I behave?

I am currently reading "The End of Faith" and one of the major threats Sam Harris sees in our contemporary religious moderation (which I think is what you are saying) is that very great danger can come to us if we do not recognize that others are far from practicing that. For instance like flying planes into the world trade center, because the people on the planes and in those buildings are all infidels and deserve to die.

When I speak of belief in the Bible, I am not referring to the beauty of the literature of it which is often found. I am speaking of beliefs in Jesus. Jesus being the son of God. Born of a virgin. Adam and Eve, the garden of eden. I am speaking of a literal belief in the Bible.

Oblivion, you are like me in this not discussing our atheism. I think maybe this is a mistake. Because being silent, gives tacit agreement when religious remarks are made. It also does not allow others who might agree with us to speak their piece. I understand in Germany you have a large percentage of the population that is atheist. It is quite different here where most people (something like 88%) profess to have a belief in the supernatural.

In the kind of world we live in today it is potentially dangerous for people to hold beliefs; through custom, and training that any logical exploration of would prove ridiculous. If you think about the people you know who are religious, do you think any of them have questioned any of the things they believe?

Squelch · Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:35 pm


	Quote: Are you suggesting that you think this is the way I behave?

Oh goodness, no. I'm sorry if I seemed to be suggesting that. But there are a great many atheists whose take on "discussion" is to misrepresent others beliefs by accusing them of believing in "sky fairies" for example, or by ouright abusing and insulting them, calling them deluded and suggesting that they must be deficient or mentally ill.


	Quote: great danger can come to us if we do not recognize that others are far from practicing that. For instance like flying planes into the world trade center, because the people on the planes and in those buildings are all infidels and deserve to die.

It's true, religious belief can lead to terrible atrocities. But so can atheism. At least three of the top five worst mass murderers of all time were atheists. On the flip side, some of the greatest philanthropists and champions of civil rights and equality were and are believers. And some atheists have been genuises and leaders of revolutions in the quality of human life.

The point is that there is no simple description of either group - it's not a black and white issue. Any believer has as much right to be aggrieved at being compared to or grouped with the 9/11 terrorists as you might be if I compared you to Stalin.


	Quote: In the kind of world we live in today it is potentially dangerous for people to hold beliefs; through custom, and training that any logical exploration of would prove ridiculous. If you think about the people you know who are religious, do you think any of them have questioned any of the things they believe?

I think what's really dangerous is dismissing huge numbers of people as mindless idiots, particularly when the evidence says that that is just not the case. There are almost certainly some believers who don't question their own ideas. And for every one there's an atheist who parrots Richard Dawkins without asking whether what he says is right or fair. In between, there's the rest of us on both sides, who question, discuss, debate and struggle with evolution, theology, science and spirituality in more or less equal measures.

lady of shallot · Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:59 pm

[quote="Squelch
"
"At least three of the top five worst mass murderers of all time were atheists." This is often quoted but what you have to remember is that these atheists (actually Hitler was Catholic) did not commit these murders in the "name" of atheism. Nor were their targets "believers"

. "Any believer has as much right to be aggrieved at being compared to or grouped with the 9/11 terrorists as you might be if I compared you to Stalin."

It wasn't any belief system that flew planes into the world trade center. It was Muslims. They did so in the name of religion.

"I think what's really dangerous is dismissing huge numbers of people as mindless idiots,"

I did not say that. I would not "dismiss huge numbers of people" as they have a huge impact on our world.

"there's an atheist who parrots Richard Dawkins without asking whether what he says is right or fair."
Can you cite where you have read this?

Atheism means against theism. You would first have to be acquainted with religion before you could be against it.

Squelch · Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:23 pm


	Quote: This is often quoted but what you have to remember is that these atheists (actually Hitler was Catholic) did not commit these murders in the "name" of atheism. Nor were their targets "believers"

Nevertheless, they were atheists. It's clear that atheists do just as many bad things as believers. It wasn't a belief system that killed 2 million cambodians in the killing fields, or many millions more in Russia, it was atheists, in the name of greed, power and wealth. Atheism is no protection from horrors, any more than religion is.

And just as religion is no protection from swalling questionable ideas like creationism, atheism is no protection from swallowing the more extreme and insane of Dawkins' ideas. Where the ideas fit the prejudices, they're acceptable.


	Quote: Atheism means against theism.

I'm sorry but that's not what atheism means at all. Atheism means "without religion", not against it.

DWill · Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:41 pm

Squelch, thanks for your input. I think you have something to say about the way our differences devolve into cultural warfare that benefits no one. However, could you be more specific about the "insane and extreme" ideas of Richard Dawkins? Offhand, I can only think of one of his statements that does appear to me extreme, at least in its unqualified form, and that is that teaching children about religion amounts to child abuse.

lady of shallot · Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:32 pm


	Quote: Nevertheless, they were atheists. It's clear that atheists do just as many bad things as believers.

Well once again Squelch they were not doing it in the name of atheism or against religious believers. Its not clear that atheists "do as many bad things as believers" because until relatively recently the many bad things done would all have been done by members of one belief system or another.

I actually think this thread is going off from the intention I had in asking my question. I was asking for helpful input not an argument.

Squelch · Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:36 pm


	Quote: However, could you be more specific about the "insane and extreme" ideas of Richard Dawkins?

I'm interested in what Dawkins says. Not necessarily for its content though; I feel that we can learn a lot about people by studying who they choose as their role models. Who do we choose?

Buddha?

Fred Phelps?

Mother Theresa?

Einstein?

Darwin?

Dawkins?

Dawkins is usually careful to keep his sound bites media-friendly but occasional glimpses of less constructed ideas do leak out. You were right to mention his position that teaching children about religion is child abuse. He has a further idea to that, in his own words, "Odious as the physical abuse of children by priests undoubtedly is, I suspect that it may do them less lasting damage than the mental abuse of bringing them up Catholic in the first place".

It should be clear that this makes no sense. Child abuse is illegal. Yet bringing children up Catholic is not. What are we to think then; does Dawkins think that bringing children up Catholic should be illegal, since it is more harmful? Or does he think that child abuse should be legalised?

This kind of inconsistency riddles his recent work. Take The God Delusion and apply a little reason, as Dawkins himself suggests that we should. Which is more likely of these two propositions:

1. 85% of the world's population suffers from a severe mental illness which causes them to see, hear and feel things which do not exist. This illness is impossible to diagnose, is incurable and there are no known treatments. Nevertheless, its symptoms are remarkably consistent and predictable worldwide and occur with astonishing regularity in every known human civilisation since it began.

2. Someone who has a problem with religion wrote a book saying believers are all mad and a few people who had the same problem agreed.

With the best will in the world, there should be mountains of evidence to support the first proposition - if it's true. There should be hospital wards filled with patients, libraries groaning with case studies and an entire industry dedicated to manufacturing real and placebo cures.

But there isn't. And the prisons are not full of parents who brought their children up Catholic. And while there's no question that being brought up in some forms of religion can lead to terrible anguish and guilt in later life, I think that we can almost all agree that that harm is in every respect less than that caused by sexual abuse.

Reason leads me to question these propositions, and reason leads me to find them quite false. It's not necessary to agree with them or anything else Dawkins says in order to be a "proper atheist", in fact I think a real free thinker should question them just as vigorously as she does religion, don't you think?

lady of shallot · Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:37 pm


	DWill wrote: "insane and extreme" ideas of Richard Dawkins? Offhand, I can only think of one of his statements that does appear to me extreme, at least in its unqualified form, and that is that teaching children about religion amounts to child abuse.

Dwill, I did not know it was Dawkins who said this and while I would not call it child abuse, neither would I give a child any religious instruction. Why would I want to teach them things I do not believe? Except to say that these are things some people believe.

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