Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:30 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery 
Author Message
Years of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Robert Tulip wrote:
It looked to me like Native wrote the Milky Way material in the Hathor and Ogdoad wikipedia pages. They line up with Native's views but not with any other sources I have seen.

@Robert Tulip,
You are wrong in assuming me to be the Wikipedia author in this or other cases, because I´ve never have written anything on Wikipedia, but thanks for the credit anyway.

- I don´t understand if you haven´t seen any other sources with the same context that I posted above!?

Just make a google search on "Ogdoad+Mythology" and you´ll find a lots of links (133.000 results) that more or less describes and confirms my posted context on the matter of Stories of Creation and the supreme primordial/elementary and Milky Way deities.

Cheers Native



Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:01 pm
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
@FTL99,
Quote:
Robert, thanks for your great post above, however, I was hoping that Native would've provided us with his very own knowledge of milky way myths that exist throughout Christianity, or any other major modern religion for that matter, to see what he really knew for himself without help. I still don't think Native/Ivar Nielsen understands the point of Acharya's work at all - probably because he has never actually read it. I suppose that needs to be thoroughly explained to him.

AD:I don´t care of what you "don´t think" or what you "probably" states at all. Just as you don´t care how many times I write that I am recieving the Freethoughtnation Newsletters and read everything with great interests, you still say that I don´t.

- Now when proving both Robert and you wrong regarding the Wikipedia text on Ogdoad, you´ll politely of course offer me an apology for the wrong claims and suggestion, right?

- And in the future you´ll of course respect me for having my very own ideas and explanations that apparently correspond with other official texts, right?



Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:38 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Night Out is Reading on Porch

Gold Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3996
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 1098
Thanked: 1110 times in 839 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Native, if you provide independent evidence I am open to being convinced. It is just that I have not seen any independent evidence to back your claims around Hathor and Isis being Milky Way Goddesses, or that the primeval mound refers to the Milky Way. These claims are not mentioned in books I have read about ancient Egypt, but I may have missed it. The Wikipedia entries do not provide sources.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:26 pm
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
@Robert,
You wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:
Native, if you provide independent evidence I am open to being convinced. It is just that I have not seen any independent evidence to back your claims around Hathor and Isis being Milky Way Goddesses, or that the primeval mound refers to the Milky Way. These claims are not mentioned in books I have read about ancient Egypt, but I may have missed it. The Wikipedia entries do not provide sources.

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor#Relationsh ... nd_symbols
“Hathor had a complex relationship with Ra, in one myth she is his eye and considered his daughter but later, when Ra assumes the role of Horus with respect to Kingship, she is considered Ra's mother. She absorbed this role from another cow goddess 'Mht wrt' ("Great flood") who was the mother of Ra in a creation myth and carried him between her horns. As a mother she gave birth to Ra each morning on the eastern horizon and as wife she conceives through union with him each day”.

“Hathor, along with the goddess Nut, was associated with the Milky Way during the third millennium B.C. when, during the fall and spring equinoxes, it aligned over and touched the earth where the sun rose and fell. The four legs of the celestial cow represented Nut or Hathor could, in one account, be seen as the pillars on which the sky was supported with the stars on their bellies constituting the Milky Way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed”.

“An alternate name for Hathor, which persisted for 3,000 years, was Mehturt (also spelt Mehurt, Mehet-Weret, and Mehet-uret), meaning “great flood”, a direct reference to her being the Milky Way. The Milky Way was seen as a waterway in the heavens, sailed upon by both the sun deity and the moon, leading the ancient Egyptians to describe it as The Nile in the Sky”.

AD: This should be very clear: Hathor, and Nut, are directly connected to the Milky Way; Ra in his “boat of millions of years” is also directly connected to the Milky Way and not to the Sun as such.

I can elaborate more on the logics and mythical implications in this text if you like.

- But if you judge Wikipedia as a dependence source that cannot be taken seriously et all, read the links below which more or less states the very same.

On Hathor:

Read “Gods of the Egyptians”, by E. A. T. Wallis Budge. Page 428
Online Link: books.google.dk/books?id=coxXaPPoBUUC&a ... mp;f=false

And: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/hathor.html

Google and read results for “Hathor+Milky Way”.

On Isis:
experiencefestival.com/a/Isis_-_Mytholo ... /id/593822

Google and read the results for "Isis+Hathor+assimilation"

The logics of the Isis-Hathor assimilation: When Hathor being a Milky Way goddess and Isis culturally assimilates/overtakes the qualities; attributes and the connected mythological telling of Hathor in large, it is of course very logically also to connect Isis to the Milky Way – and to the creation story of the Milky Way itself.

- It is then on the first physical creation of the “Primordial Mound”, in the Milky Way centre, that Hathor/Isis /Mary/Neith/Nut - or other comparative goddesses – gives birth to the luminous Milky Way light of Ra, also mentioned as “The First Light”; The Enclosed Light”, created from the Ogdoad 4 (8) basical elementary deities. Ra is then logically the light of the Milky Way and not the light of the Sun which logically enough is created some time after the creation of the Primordial Mound.

In any myths of Creation that describes a “forthcoming land” or “soil being pushed up from the waters” or "man being created out of clay" etc. etc. this is connected to the creation of the Primordial Mound and to the Milky Way because this creation is started off by the 4 (8) Ogdoad elementary deities that created the first physically creator deities belonging to the Milky Way luminous centre.

The first physical creating is RA emerging as the radiant light of the Milky Way; then creating the 2 half hemisphere “lunar-like-crescent” stylized figures/creators of the vaulting Milky Way, and lastly creating the full Milky Way contour of the "Heavenly Serpent" or the full "Milky Way River" that give origin for the “Flood Myths” all over the world. (Not because of any sin – but just because the river runs in the heaven clearly observable all around the Earth).

Google and read also "Emergence Myths" and "Milky Way Myths"

Cheers Native



The following user would like to thank Native for this post:
Robert Tulip
Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:07 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
No Bell Prize Winner


Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1298
Thanks: 518
Thanked: 484 times in 368 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Native wrote:
Just as you don´t care how many times I write that I am recieving the Freethoughtnation Newsletters and read everything with great interests, you still say that I don´t.

Hold on now, you've diverted the subject from Murdocks books to the FTN news letters, which, are not Murdocks books. FTL was saying that you have not read her books and that it shows. It does show actually. Reading the news letters does not amount to reading the actual books. And the point is that if go ahead and read the books you might understand where Murdock is coming from...


_________________
A) The Origins of Religious Worship

B) The Christmas Nativity

C) The Mythicist Position

D) YEC theory put to rest!


Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:08 pm
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
tat tvam asi wrote:
Native wrote:
Just as you don´t care how many times I write that I am recieving the Freethoughtnation Newsletters and read everything with great interests, you still say that I don´t.

Hold on now, you've diverted the subject from Murdocks books to the FTN news letters, which, are not Murdocks books. FTL was saying that you have not read her books and that it shows. It does show actually. Reading the news letters does not amount to reading the actual books. And the point is that if go ahead and read the books you might understand where Murdock is coming from...

For the time being, the only questionable issue that has come up regarding the works of Murdock, is that of the deities connected to the Milky Way.

It began with my post of Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:03 pm dealing with the question of comparisons between Hathor/Neith/Isis(Mary).

FTL then replied:

FTL99 wrote:
(Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:58 pm) What you are bring up here assuming we don't know anything about is old news to Acharya. She discusses the Hathor connection to the milky way in her first book, Christ Conspiracy, page 97 from 1999. Acharya simply doesn't spend any time on milky way myths because I don't think she sees it as relevant to her work. What milky way myths have found their way into Christianity that have been verified & confirmed by reputable scholars?

- I´ve read the Christ Conspiracy here: books.google.com/books?id=KnIYRi3upbEC& ... mp;f=false - where Hathor is mentioned on:

Page 97 - quoted as being connected to the Milky Way.
Page 156 - quoted being connected to the Moon.

(Which is very interesting in itself. The qouted scholars obviously cannot agree on which celestial mytho-cosmological object the greatest goddess Hathor is connected to - even there is a huge mytho-cosmological difference betwen milky way creative forces compared to the more inferior lunar forces) (This also shows that there is a huge mythological confusion going on where the Milky Way half hemisphere crescent is scholarly interpreted to be a lunar crescent symbol - as I have stated before)

- I would not have any problems sticking strict to the Virgin Isis/Mary topic in this tread, if not for the very unpleasent and nit-picking personal comments from FTL also mudding up this tread up by mixing this tread with an old tread on Frethoughtnation Forum.

So: I´ve read the book in question and besides this, I think the solar astrotheology/mythology is very easy to understand as a mythological hypothesis - even it, in my opinion, has some logical explanation problems regarding connecting the solar deity to a certain globally row of seasonal and astrotheological rituals where the different hemisphere solar seasons are opposite each other.

If the solar hero is born at 25 th. of december on the northern hemisphere, he dies at the same time on the southern hemisphere. But I´m sure someone can link me to a logical explanation of this astrotheological paradox. Eventually by again accusing me for not having read a relevant book. . .

- With this comment I´ll hold my horses and leave it all to yourself - unless someone adresses me with further factual questions or the usual nit-picking comments.

Cheers Native



Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:33 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Night Out is Reading on Porch

Gold Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3996
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 1098
Thanked: 1110 times in 839 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Native - thanks for the Hathor - Milky Way links, that is good.

I still don't see where the Egyptian creation myth saw the Primordial Mound as the Milky Way. That looks unlikely and speculative to my reading.


_________________
http://rtulip.net


Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:45 pm
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Robert Tulip wrote:
Native - thanks for the Hathor - Milky Way links, that is good.

I still don't see where the Egyptian creation myth saw the Primordial Mound as the Milky Way. That looks unlikely and speculative to my reading.

Hello Robert,
I fully understand the difficulties in taking in the concept of how the ancient people grasped the mytho-cosmological knowledge of the Creation.

On the other hand, maybe it demands more training for me in order to launch my ideas better and clearer?

For my part it has taken me 35 years of mythological and cosmological ponderings to get where I am now.

- If you would like me to go into a deeper explaining here, I would like to do that.

In the mean time: Have you read my articles of Mythology and Cosmology here:

"The Milky Way Mythology and the Stories of Creation" - http://vixra.org/abs/1109.0065
And:
"New Solar and Galaxy Formation Knowledge" - http://vixra.org/abs/1109.0013

- These 2 articles can be read as a combination of knowledge as well as descriptions of the significant differencies between ancient and modern ideas/hypothesis and knowledge.

Cheers Native



Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:23 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Night Out is Reading on Porch

Gold Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3996
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 1098
Thanked: 1110 times in 839 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Native, I read your first paper, and agree with FTL99's comments on it. You are forcing myth into a schema of your own devising.

The myth of Icarus shows that the idea of a chariot pulling the sun was widespread. See picture of Apollo below. You deny this.

Saturn marks the limit of the visible solar system. Its orbit of nearly thirty years, and Jupiter's orbit of twelve years, form the structure of time, with their combined orbit of 20 years forming the Mayan K'atun.

The Egyptian Geb and Nut separated by Shu symbolise the earth and stars separated by the air. Making this into a Milky Way myth is forced.

The Egyptians saw the constellation Argo (Noah's Ark) as a stellar boat. This constellation is not visible from Denmark. It has the same shape as the Osiris standing on a boat in your paper.

The 'wheels within wheels' from Ezekiel has a far simpler and more accurate interpretation - precession surrounds the year which surrounds the day. Your depiction of the Milky Way surrounding the wheel of the stars is not correct, because the Milky Way moves with the rest of the stars.

In the Bible, the tree of life is the zodiac, not the Milky Way.

I welcome your interest in these big topics, but as these questions indicate, your claims are highly speculative and look dubious.

Here is an ancient depiction of the Sun God Apollo.
Image


_________________
http://rtulip.net


Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:22 am
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Robert Tulip wrote:
Native, I read your first paper, and agree with FTL99's comments on it. You are forcing myth into a schema of your own devising.

The myth of Icarus shows that the idea of a chariot pulling the sun was widespread. See picture of Apollo below. You deny this.

Saturn marks the limit of the visible solar system. Its orbit of nearly thirty years, and Jupiter's orbit of twelve years, form the structure of time, with their combined orbit of 20 years forming the Mayan K'atun.

The Egyptian Geb and Nut separated by Shu symbolise the earth and stars separated by the air. Making this into a Milky Way myth is forced.

The Egyptians saw the constellation Argo (Noah's Ark) as a stellar boat. This constellation is not visible from Denmark. It has the same shape as the Osiris standing on a boat in your paper.

The 'wheels within wheels' from Ezekiel has a far simpler and more accurate interpretation - precession surrounds the year which surrounds the day. Your depiction of the Milky Way surrounding the wheel of the stars is not correct, because the Milky Way moves with the rest of the stars.

In the Bible, the tree of life is the zodiac, not the Milky Way.

I welcome your interest in these big topics, but as these questions indicate, your claims are highly speculative and look dubious.

Here is an ancient depiction of the Sun God Apollo.
Image

Robert,
I was really hoping to stay on the topic of the Primeval Mound. I maybe should have linked you to another Mytho-Cosmological article which is here: jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3701& ... p;start=15 Page 2; Post subject: 01. Milky Way Mythology and further on.

I´ll only comment on some of your issues here.

1) The Icaros/Trundholm Wagon Myth: I don¨t deny the myth. But I totally refuse the consensus interpretation as being a totally unreflected and illogical mythological heritage.

Please tell me in your own words how anyone can depict an imagery of a horse pulling the sun over the daytime sky - and make a trustworthy and logical myth out of this scenario.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trundholm_sun_chariot - “Sun goddess is Sunna. Every day, Sól rode through the sky on her chariot, pulled by the two horses Arvak and Alsvid. The sun chariot has been interpreted as representing a Bronze Age predecessor to the goddess”.

You see? Here the Trundholm text talks of a female solar deity on her chariot and not the usually male Father Sun deity. So you cannot even compare these 2 chariots at all.

The Trundholm Wagon is still more likely to deal with Milky Way goddess as I claim, where the "solar goddess" represents the very light of the Milky Way centre - which is located on the female Milky Way figure on the southern hemisphere in the constellation of Sagittarius. A centre that mythologically is called by the female name of "The Cosmic Womb" as well as the Primeval Mound.

2) Goddess Nut is certainly connected to the Milky Way Myths, right? We can discuss whether Geb represents the Earth or the soil building up on the Primeval Mound. I think the latter is the rigt one. In such case it all can be logically connected to both the Milky Way mythology and to the Story of Creation, right? Google "goddess nut+milky way". Or just read here http://www.crystalinks.com/nute.html

3) Regarding the constellation of "Argo": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo_Navis "Argo Navis is the only one of the 48 constellations listed by the 2nd century astronomer Ptolemy that is no longer officially recognised as a constellation.

- Have you any written or hieroglyphical evidence of claiming this supposedly 2nd century constellation for being a more than 2 thousand year old egyptian mythological constellation ship or the biblical Noah´s Ark ship?

4) Of course "the Milky Way seemingly moves with the rest of the stars". I cannot locate the actual problem out from this comment of yours.

5) If "In the Bible, the tree of life is the zodiac, not the Milky Way" - In which Garden of Eden-centre is then the Tree of Life located in the zodiac?

Can we maybe then now focus on the topic of the Primeval Mound?

Cheers Native



Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:26 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
No Bell Prize Winner


Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1298
Thanks: 518
Thanked: 484 times in 368 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Native, you seem a bit confused for sure. The ancients saw the sun move across the sky all day. In those times movement was associated with chariot travel here on earth. So they mythologized the sun as being pulled across the sky, every day, by a mythological chariot ride across the sky. Whether the sun was personified as male or female, doesn't matter. In both cases the sun (whether viewed as male or female) was moving across the sky.

Now earlier than this the Egyptians used the analogy of the scarab beatle because it rolled along a ball of dung across the ground. So the sun was mythologized as rolled along through the sky by the scarab beatle. The chariot is just another edition to the old myth of the suns daily movement based on the same type of mythologizing analogy found in Egypt much earlier.


_________________
A) The Origins of Religious Worship

B) The Christmas Nativity

C) The Mythicist Position

D) YEC theory put to rest!


Last edited by tat tvam asi on Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:28 pm
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
tat tvam asi wrote:
Native, you seem a bit confused for sure. The ancients saw the sun move across the sky all day. In those times movement was associated with chariot travel here on earth. So they mythologized the sun as being pulled across the sky, every day, by a mythological chariot ride across the sky. Whether the sun was personified as male or female, doesn't matter. In both cases the sun (whether viewed as male or female) was moving across the sky.

Now earlier than this the Egyptians used the analogy of the scarab beatle because it rolled along a ball of dung across the ground. So the sun was mythologized as rolled along through the sky by the scarab beatle. The chariot is just another edition to the old myth of the suns daily movement based on the same type of mythologizing analogy found in Egypt much earlier.

tat tvam asi,

To cut straight to the point: I´ll bet you that the mythological Scarab Beatle represents the mythical “first upheaval of soil” on the (Ra) enlightened Primeval Mound in the creation story, not “a puller of the Sun”.

1) The Dung Beetle species was worshipped by the ancient Egyptians as an embodiment of the god Khepri.

2) In Egyptian mythology, Khepri (also spelled Khepera, Kheper, Chepri, Khepra) is the name of a major god.

3) Khepri was identified as the aspect of Ra which constitutes only the dawning sun (i.e. the sun when it comes into being).

AD: Now, Is it the sun that comes into being in this mythical telling? Or is it “the soil on the (Ra) enlightened Primeval Mound that comes into being”?

Note especially the sentence in § 3: “. . . constitutes only the dawning sun”. Only the dawning – nothing else! Except from the fact that it is not “the sun”, but the first Ra light of/on the Primeval Mound.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad we have the telling of the elementary deities who are immanent present before the story of the physically creation begins.

“The eight deities were arranged in four female-male pairs: Naunet and Nu, Amaunet and Amun, Kauket and Kuk, Hauhet and Huh. The females were associated with snakes and the males were associated with frogs. Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the female goddess from the male god in a pair; indeed, the names of the females are merely the female forms of the male name and vice versa. Essentially, each pair represents the female and male aspect of one of four concepts, namely the primordial waters (Naunet and Nu), air or invisibility (Amunet and Amun), darkness (Kauket and Kuk), and eternity or infinite space (Hauhet and Huh).

Together the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning, they are what always were. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced resulting in the arising of a new entity.

When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things”.

AD: After a certain amount of interaction between the 4 (8) elements of Ogdoad, the physically creation first shows a great fiery light, Ra, as a result of swirling and merging elements. In this process everything is created, including the first soil that becomes land i.e. planets later on.

The Dung Beetle, Khepri God, is connected to Ra in the sense that it represents the first soil/land that is created, is pushed up, and this creates the firm land that again becomes the Primeval Mound. In this sense the Dung Beetle also allegorical represents the eternal creation.

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_ ... tion_myths

The sun (Read: Ra, The First Light on the Primeval Mound – Native) was also closely associated with creation, and it was said to have first risen from the mound, as the general sun-god Ra or as the god Khepri, who represented the newly-risen sun (Read: Ra, The First Light on the Primeval Mound – Native). There were many versions of the sun's emergence, (Read: Ra, The First Light on the Primeval Mound – Native) and it was said to have emerged directly from the mound or from a lotus flower that grew from the mound, in the form of a heron, falcon, scarab beetle, or human child.

Another common element of Egyptian cosmogonies is the familiar figure of the cosmic egg, a substitute for the primeval waters or the primeval mound. One variant of the cosmic egg version teaches that the sun god, (Read: Ra, The First Light on the Primeval Mound – Native) as primeval power, emerged from the primeval mound, which itself stood in the chaos of the primeval sea.

AD: Here it all comes together: The Dung Beetle represents the First Land on the Primeval Mound. In this sense the Beetle is connected to the First Light and Primeval Power of Ra on this Mound which mythologically also is connected to the mytheme of the Cosmic Egg from where everything comes into physically being.

Conclusion: The Dung Beetle has nothing directly to do with our Sun at all. The Beetle itself represents the mytheme of “soil upheaval” and creation of the Primeval Mound and land/planets as such. And Ra have nothing directly to do with our sun either. Ra cannot possibly and mytho-logically have anything directly to do with the sun because the solar system itself was not even created in this stage of the story of creation.

But of course both Ra and the Dung Beetle have something indirectly to do with the further creation out from the Primeval Mound because everything in our Milky Way is created out from this centre of creation, biblically called the Garden of Eden. Even our solar system was clearly created out of the Milky Way centre because it is obviously an orbiting part of the Milky Way rotation.

The confusion of Light
- In the scholarly interpretation, this light mytheme of Ra = The First Light, is confused because the scholars for some reason or another ignores/fails to connect the right mythological telling with the right cosmological object.

Knowing nothing or very little of the Milky Way creation, some scholars confuse the primary Milky Way First Light of the Primordial Mound with the secondary light of the Sun which of course gives a mythological and cosmological distorted telling that lacks logics.

So tat tvam asi: What do you bet?

NB: For a more specific and alternative explanation of the creation read here:
jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3701& ... p;start=15
Post subject: 01. Milky Way Mythology; Post subject: 02. Milky Way Myth Basics; (Post subject: 03. Interpreting Deity Myths); Post subject: 04. Basically Symbols of Creation.

Cheers Native



Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:06 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
No Bell Prize Winner


Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1298
Thanks: 518
Thanked: 484 times in 368 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
The dung beatle rolls up a sphere. That's the main concern. The dawning sun is of course the sun coming up at dawn. So you have this sphere rolling beatle associated with the dawning spherical sun which comes up and moves across the sky all day. It's pretty straight forward.

But on a side note, The light of the Milky Way is a strong candidate for the first light in Genesis. It isn't the sun, moon, or stars to the ancient eye, but rather something different. It's before the sun, moon, and stars if the light of the first day refers to the Milky Way. And could possibly be left over from earlier creation myths. I don't doubt that the Milky Way plays a role in creation mythology, it's just errant to try and force fit it into places where it doesn't belong for the sake of a pet theory.


_________________
A) The Origins of Religious Worship

B) The Christmas Nativity

C) The Mythicist Position

D) YEC theory put to rest!


Last edited by tat tvam asi on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:50 am
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membership
Master Debater


Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
tat tvam asi wrote:
The dung beatle rolls up a sphere. That's the main concern. The dawning sun is of course the sun coming up at dawn. So you have this sphere rolling beatle associated with the dawning spherical sun which comes up and moves across the sky all day. It's pretty straight forward.

But on a side note, The light of the Milky Way is a strong candidate for the first light in Genesis. It isn't the sun, moon, or stars to the ancient eye, but rather something different. It's before the sun, moon, and stars if the light of the first day refers to the Milky Way. And could possibly be left over from earlier creation myths. I don't doubt that the Milky Way plays a role in creation mythology, it's just errant to try and force fit it into places where it doesn't belong for the sake of a pet theory.

- As you correctly wrote: "It's before the sun, moon, and stars if the light of the first day refers to the Milky Way"

If? – I think for sure.

Therefore: The mythological heritage of “rolling the sun” in this connection and sentence, is overall and pretty straight forward wrong, inclusive the popular Beetle-rolling-the sun-over-the-sky-heritage.

Quote: “I don't doubt that the Milky Way plays a role in creation mythology, it's just errant to try and force fit it into places where it doesn't belong for the sake of a pet theory”.

AD: Thanks for your Milky Way open-mindedness in general. If you mean that I have a “pet-theory”, I agree – but don´t judge it errant or irrelevant just because it isn´t a pet idea of your own, or doesn´t fit into the popular consensus mythologically understanding, right?

Cheers Native



Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:46 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
No Bell Prize Winner


Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1298
Thanks: 518
Thanked: 484 times in 368 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery

Anyone following along should watch the brief lecture on Egyptian mythology for clarification.

The problem is that even if we look at the sun having been created out of, or, by the milky way, this doesn't even change the notion of the sun being rolled along. It's just a case of the sun coming from the milky way center and then being rolled along through the sky each day thereafter by the scarab beatle.

You seem to be doing what I see on these alien seeding theory shows on the History Channel and such. They will twist and bend certain myths that clearly about the sun, or precession, in favor of trying to show evidence of alien space craft and what not. And to anyone who doesn't know better, it might seem like they have a point. But the further you look into it the point they were trying to make begins to dissolve.

The Milky Way is a part of astrotheological cosmology, but as Murdock said it's part of a sub level of status. It doesn't make the plants grow, isn't responsible for the perpetuation of life, it doesn't play any major roll in daily life. It's use is basically for a point of reference such as in precession myth and such. In Revelation it's addressed to the Great Year. It's one of the markers in the sky for observing the earth's tilted axis. And it's probably the "light" that the ancients thought was around before the sun, moon, and stars such as in Genesis. But even in that case it's more than obvious that the first light (if referring to the milky way) takes a second seat to the sun and moon after the 4th day of creation. Then the sun rules the day and the moon rules the night. No matter which way you spin it the milky ways myths simply do not trump the solar and lunar myths. And you really are trying too hard to force fit the milky way into solar and lunar mythology.


_________________
A) The Origins of Religious Worship

B) The Christmas Nativity

C) The Mythicist Position

D) YEC theory put to rest!


The following user would like to thank tat tvam asi for this post:
Robert Tulip, Vishnu
Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:16 pm
Profile Email
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books






BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Science Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank