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Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery 
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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Listen, the Milky Way certainly plays a role in astromythological lore and symbolism. Everyone is well aware of that. It's in Egyptian myth and even the book of Revelation. And with little wonder too, the milky way makes for quite a point of reference in places away from city lights. But the problem here is that you've taken and mixed up solar mythology and milky way myths so as to confuse solar myth for milky way myth and vise versa. FLT is trying to point out that you're actually confusing the issue too much to the point where it doesn't help astrotheological studies at all.


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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
tat tvam asi wrote:
But the problem here is that you've taken and mixed up solar mythology and milky way myths so as to confuse solar myth for milky way myth and vise versa. FLT is trying to point out that you're actually confusing the issue too much to the point where it doesn't help astrotheological studies at all.

Of course I´m confusing the issue if it doesn´t help your points of astrotheology.

But maybe my disturbing could give some further astrotheologically backup on the long run when taken just a little more welcoming; serious and open-minded a la the free-thought-foundation idea itself.

I´ve already posted some arguments and given some links for you to read and ponder over.

- But if you wish, give me 1 concrete example of a supposed mix-up of mine so we can discuss out from a concrete example of who is mixing what things up.

Later edit: Let me make this very clear once for all: I admire the works of Acharya very much indeed! I´m just concerned of telling the right mythological story and connect it to the right cosmological objects - and all primary deities are connected to the Milky Way myths and to the cosmological creation story of the Milky Way, which is so important to emphazise and to hold on to.

This fact is the only logical explanation of how a mythological Virgin Goddesses cosmologically can give bith to both the Sun and the mythological Son that becomes the Milky Way "virgin" male partner later on in the globally and very similar tellings.

The cosmological explanation of the Milky Way creation states that our solar system was created directly out from the Milky Way centre = The Garden of Eden and driven out in the galactic surroundings. It is this creation that is described when "Hathor, symbolised as a Cow, produces the Milky Way out of her udder" and gives birth to the Sun/Solar System and to everything else in our galaxy.

Combining the mythologically stories of creation with this cosmological explanation, it all gives a very logically meaning.



Last edited by Native on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:21 pm
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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
So Native, you have NOT read 'Christ in Egypt' or any of her other books either. For the third time, this is a thread specifically about that book and there's no mention of the milky way at all. So, you are wasting our time here.

Native wrote:
But if you wish, give me 1 concrete example of a supposed mix-up of mine so we can discuss out from a concrete example of who is mixing what things up.

Okay ...

Native wrote:
AD: Non the less, you yourself linked to the "Christ Conspiracy" in order to tell me that the issue of the Milky Way Goddesses (Hathor as Milky Way Goddess/Mother Moon Goddess, later replaced by Isis, in this case) already was/is mentioned in this book.

Regarding the tread topic of "The Virgin Isis-Mery", it was/is very relevant for me to know some answers to how important the concept of "Virgin Moon Goddesses" is, as asked in the quotation above and I´m waiting for answers to this issue.

- I´m asking this question because I don´t understand why the clearly stated Milky Way deity connections doesn´t have a higher priority/firm relevans in the works of Acharya.

My previous point about her mentioning the milky way in her first book from 1999 was merely to demonstrate to you that she is aware of milky way myths and that the reason she doesn't mention it is due to the fact that they are completely irrelevant to the work that she does in comparative mythology showing parallels to Christianity. Now, since you're the expert, show me with primary source evidence and substantiate it with a few scholars comments that Mary is another milky way myth. Or, please provide valid evidence of milky way myths anywhere throughout the New Testament. But, don't waste our time doing it here because it's completely off-topic here. You need to do that in your thread at Freethought Nation, NOT HERE. It's completely irrelevant here. Understand?

Native wrote:
A mythological Moon Goddess can logically of course NOT give birth to the Sun – or a Son – but a Milky Way Goddess can if you read the Stories of Creation and connect the story to the formation of the Milky Way. This is what I´m trying to state in my posts anywhere in the religious/mythological debates.

And this is why you fail, logic has nothing to do with it. It's about the personification and Anthropomorphism of nature and natural phenomena, which you should have known long before you ever created your website. It's ancient religious mythology 101 and you appear to know nothing about it. You make absolutely no effort to verify or confirm your claims in any way; you seriously believe that your dreams and visions are all the evidence you need to make these claims and connections. That's why anyone who wants to retain their credibility and reliability must steer clear of your website. At least until you fix those issues. It just doesn't look like you're even trying to be accurate at all, Native.

Quote:
At the Temple of Sais: "I am all that has been, and is, and shall be, and the fruit I have produced is the sun."

- Christ in Egypt, page 146

"The general interpretation of this inscription is that Neith, one of the most important deities of the Egyptian pantheon, is not only the “Alpha and Omega,” so to speak, but also the inviolate begetter of the sun, the Immaculate Virgin and Great Mother. Validating this contention, Dr. John D. Ray, a professor of Egyptology at Cambridge, comments:

"In Sais in the Delta...there was a virgin goddess who gave birth to the sun at the beginning of time by some form of parthenogenesis."

- Christ in Egypt, page 147

See how Acharya S did that, Native? Maybe you could do that sometime? Of course, she provides much more information on it than I quoted above.

Notice there's no mention of the milky way at the Wiki article for Isis, Native?

I don't mean to be harsh but, your utter ignorance on these issues is just making more work for me to have to explain it to you. I really don't have time to spoon-feed you when you have so much to learn and you really should be reading and studying books rather than relying on your dreams and visions, which are unreliable and do not ever prove anything. Your dreams and visions are important to you but just because it feels good to you doesn't make it so - that is called euphoria and faith. Nobody doubts that there are significant milky way myths but all you're doing here and at Freethought Nation is irritating us because you simply do not know what the hell you're talking about. Your website is full of sloppy and egregious errors; it's best that you fix all that before trying to force your dreams and visions on us. Understand?

Native wrote:
"In my opinion have our ancestors all over the World got some similar information's about cosmological conditions which modern astrophysics have rediscovered in the modern time with technological instruments. But how was that possible for our ancestors on the north hemisphere to recognize the southern heaven an the Milky Way figure and its cosmological knowledge?

The answer is: By spiritual journeys of wise men and woman and trough intuitive knowledge! I know this from some visions and dreams of my own..."
http://native-science.net/MilkyWay.MotherGoddess.htm

Native wrote:
There is a huge scholarly/consensus interpretative confusion between Lunar and Milky Way deities going on, and also between the terms of “light of the Sun” and “light and shape of the Milky Way centre”.

No, there is not. Must be your dreams again. Look, we are the first in line to pin academia to wall for inaccurate information but what you're doing is making it up however you wish. You must stop.

Native wrote:
since you don´t like any links to “my horrible website”, read this instead ... Combine the information from these two articles and see what you get out of them.

There are some good things on your website but, the claims that are wrong are so utterly embarrassingly wrong that it's like somebody took a dump every few claims. If you got rid of the claims that are wrong your website would be fine.

What it looks like to me is that you are Ivar Nielsen trying to pretend that he is someone else now? Are you or are you not Ivar Nielsen? It's a copy/paste from your website so, if you're not Ivar Nielsen I'd be pissed if I were you. Or are you the one plagiarizing Ivar Nielsen?

Native wrote:
3) SUN-CARRIAGE OR MILKY WAY CARRIAGE?

The Norse Mythology have a telling of a Horse dragging the Sun over the vault of heaven. This must be confusion. You cannot create such a symbol and such a story. One cannot se any Horse dragging the Sun Disk over the vault of Heaven! The confusion is made when scholars interpret the Wheel-symbol as a Sun-symbol, which is wrong.

Picture 2 showing a ritual carriage from the Bronze Age, called the ―Sun Wagon‖ from Trundholm, Denmark. All these pictures shows different cultural stages of picturing the same motif: The Milky Way contours with the Celestial Centre.
Therefore the ―Sun-Carriage‖ must be renamed to ―Milky Way –Carriage‖ and the mythological storytelling should be telling of this instead of ―dragging the Sun-disk over the vault of heaven‖.

The Trundholm sun-carriage was already touched on previously on page 4 here. You're still not understanding even the most basic part of just how badly and embarrassingly wrong you are. First, the disc was originally fully covered in gold (gold is often an ancient symbol for the sun) and those other bits fell off over time. So, your egregious error is assuming that the pattern was originally meant to match the milky way. Nothing could be further from the truth. You could've learned that from a cursory investigation. You only embarrass yourself with those pics comparing the milky way image to it and your giant leap of faith claiming that the image on the sun-carriage is that of the milky way. It is not and everybody knows that except you, apparently. When you do stuff like that you ruin it for all of us who love mythology. Understand? It's absolutely imperative that you stop making these types of utterly false claims. Please remove them from your website.

The sun-carriage i.e. a horse pulling the carriage is a common solar theme in the ancient world representing the movement of the sun across the sky. We know this because the ancients themselves explained it as such, which you are oblivious. You could learn about much of that by actually reading Acharya's books since they include the primary sources and highly respected and credentialed scholars across a wide variety of disciplines substantiating it.

Your claim is demonstrably sloppy, egregious and embarrassingly wrong. If you want to show how academia is wrong then you need to PROVE them wrong with credible evidence not dreams, visions, speculation and opinion with no valid evidence to substantiate your claims. Understand? So, the "confusion" in this case is all yours Native/Ivar Nielsen and a simple cursory check would've told you so. It's reasons like this that your website is not reliable. Understand?

Now, please stop doing this as all you're doing is making far more work for me when I don't have time for this crap.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Yeah, for you to come along trying to troll this thread is a bit out of line Native. I read through your website when you first started posted links a long time ago and I saw a lot of nonsense going on there. Once you start off on the vision's and seer stuff you've lost any serious audience.

The sun chariot is quite obviously not a milky way chariot and it's pretty ridiculous to make such an assertion. Just as ridiculous as any of the Gnostic Jesus crap that has been trolled through these discussions already. We're dealing with controversial subject matter in CiE so of course the kooks come out of the wood works to either try and align themselves and their own pet theories with this position, or to try and refute the position in favor of their own pet theories and ideas. The difference between the MP and what you're pushing is that we're dealing with scholarship, evidence, reason, and logic and you're not. We're not pushing mysticism, belief, visions, supernatural powers, or anything close to that. We're pushing a strong scientific investigation analysis of comparative mythology and religion. And more importantly, we're discussing the book CiE. You're not discussing the book, you're just trolling for some attention...


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Last edited by tat tvam asi on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
@FTL99,
If you - JUST FOR ONCE - can focus on the factual issues and not use your lowest intellectual common denominator playing moderator over my personal website and my person et all, I might begin to take you serious.

I simply refuse to go to your low frustated level and comment on your emotial and clearly frustrated outbursts regarding my personal website; my personal spiritual experiences and other personal issues.

For the record: I am subscribed to the Freethougthnation News and I also read the articles et all. Just because I in the writing moment not could remember where the Milky Way myths specifically was mentioned in the Acharya work, I asked for this and also quoted from the "Christ Conspiracy" - which of course was ignored.

I wrote earlier:

"A mythological Moon Goddess can logically of course NOT give birth to the Sun – or a Son – but a Milky Way Goddess can if you read the Stories of Creation and connect the story to the formation of the Milky Way. This is what I´m trying to state in my posts anywhere in the religious/mythological debates."

Your answer was: "And this is why you fail, logic has nothing to do with it. It's about the personification and Anthropomorphism of nature and natural phenomena . . ."

AD: You cannot tell believable mythological stories if you logically can´t explain both the deity personification as well as the antropomorphism and symbolism of celestial objects - rigth from the Milky Way issues with the connected Stories of Creation and down on the Earth.

If this isn´t logical for you it´s your problem, not mine.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
tat tvam asi wrote:
We're pushing a strong scientific investigation analysis of comparative mythology and religion. And more importantly, we're discussing the book CiE. You're not discussing the book, you're just trolling for some attention...

Fine about the "strong scientific investigation": Then tell me in scientifically terms how a Virgin Mother Moon deity (As Hathor the Moon Mother cited in Christ Conspiracy) (or for that matter how any other Virgin deity) can give birth to the Sun - or to a mythological Son.

Or does the investigation only deal with the amount of scholarly quotations - regardsless of the logics of the arguments and logical mythological understanding?

I´ve asked this several times - and I´m still waiting for a scientifical plausible logical and mytological answer.

NB: "Trolling for some attention", eh? For your information, I´m not a masochist.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Isis, as Neith, in the Temple inscription at Sais, says that she is the great virgin (Hwnt) whose veil has never been lifted and yet gave birth to the sun. That is what we are outlining in CiE. Goddesses are used to represent a variety of natural things such as the Dawn, the Moon, and even the Milky Way in some cases. So it's a question of which thing the myth is trying to represent at what time. Hathor is not mentioned in the Sais temple inscription of Isis as Neith. But what is being suggested is that Neith is basically existence itself - all that ever was, is, or shall ever be. And it is the realm of existence itself which gave rise to the sun, technically both the milky way galaxy and the sun. It trumps both observable objects as the absolute ultimate factor.

Now it does make sense to consider that in myth the sun could seem to have been born out of the milky way. But from where did the milky way arise in order to give birth to the sun? Was the milky way "all that ever was, is, or shall ever be?" No, I'm afraid the reference goes much deeper than that as does the intent of the Goddess symbolism involved...


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Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:32 pm
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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Murdock's work is scientific. This is what many readers fail to comprehend, due to the religious subject matter and the extraordinary findings.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is an object of irrational religious veneration through Christian mythology. This myth exhibits strong continuity with earlier cults of the virgin Goddess, especially those of Egypt such as Isis, Hathor and Neith. Analyzing the origins and evolution of this myth requires careful study, and grounding of speculation in evidence. True believers react with lies and vitriol when the facts are presented as they are in Christ in Egypt, so it is essential to be careful and judicious.

Tat Tvam Asi and FTL99 have pointed out here that Native's arguments lack evidence. My impression is that Native appears to be imagining a personal vision. I have not seen where Native has provided evidence of the supposed links between Isis and the Milky Way.

However, there is strong cosmic symbolism for Mary, especially the 'queen of heaven' with her crown of twelve stars representing the twelve signs of the zodiac as described at Revelation 12. Mary is associated with the sea, 'mare' in Latin, and the Milky Way is associated with a cosmic ocean. The Milky Way appears in the Bible as the River of Life in the very final chapter, Revelation 22, where it is explained in code that the Milky Way bisects the zodiac, as we see in the sky. Some writers, such as Robert Bauval, have suggested the ancient Egyptians regarded the Nile River as an earthly symbol for the cosmic river of the Milky Way. The Platonic theory of transmigration of souls considered that the human soul returns to the Milky Way after death as our ultimate home. The Christian Chi Rho cross* is a symbol of the Milky Way and the zodiac.

Despite all that, Native has not explained how Mary or Isis link to the Milky Way. Just because both are associated with the sea looks quite tenuous. By contrast, the associations between Isis and the Moon are demonstrable, for example her Hathor Moon Hat shown below. The relation between sun and moon appears straightforward. Conventionally, the sun rules the day while the moon rules the night. Every day at dawn, the night gives birth to the day. Just because the Milky Way also rules the night is not enough to link it to Isis, as that claim needs to be backed up with some ancient evidence.
Image
I actually feel it is more plausible that Osiris links to the galaxy, because his body shape in the hall of the dead is similar to the curving path of the galaxy, he is the destination of the soul after death, and he has the four suns of Horus before him symbolising the four corners of the heavens. But that is quite speculative.
Image

While FTL is right that the Milky Way seems to be off topic for a discussion on Isis and Mary, it sits within the broader theme of how we can understand mythology and the stars. I can understand FTL and Tat getting irritated because Native is not using the same standards for evidence that Murdock does.

* Here is the Chi Rho cross. The Alpha and Omega symbolise the Great Year of precession of the equinox, while the X bars are the Milky Way and the Zodiac as explained cryptically by Plato in the Timaeus. Christianity is totally cosmic, but remains in denial of its real identity.

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Last edited by Robert Tulip on Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Regarding Neith/Isis: “Her name also may be interpreted as meaning water. In time, this led to her being considered as the personification of the primordial waters of creation. She is identified as a great mother goddess in this role as a creator”.

AD: The term “primordial waters of creation” in combination with the term of “the celestial Nile”, can only be a telling of creation of the Milky Way itself.

“Neith's symbol and part of her hieroglyph also bore a resemblance to a loom, and so later in the history of Egyptian myths, she also became goddess of weaving, and gained this version of her name, Neith, which means weaver. At this time her role as a creator changed from being water-based to that of the deity who wove all of the world and existence into being on her loom”.

AD: Before anything is created in the Milky Way, the 4 basically elements of water; fire; air and soil comes into play in space. We have primordial deities for these 4 elements that exist before the beginning of the creation.

The symbol of a loom is something that revolves and when combining this revolving loom with the rotation of the Milky Way centre and the whirling creation of the 4 elements in this centre, one easily can understand how the great mother goddesses are spinning all the treads that creates both herself; the Milky Way; and everything else in the Milky Way disc via the interactive spinning/whirling of the 4 elements that creates everything.

- The first physical object in this creation is the Primordial Mound (The bulged and luminous Milky Way centre) from where the goddess rises and gives birth to everything in the Milky Way galaxy. It is the goddess that is born first on the Primordial Mound because this happens in the Milky Way centre on the southern hemisphere Milky Way contour where the centre of the Milky Way is located on the star constellation of Sagittarius.

This southern Milky Way contours is easily depicted, also in star maps, as a great woman (or a great cow) and the Milky Way centre is located in the right proportional position of the woman, giving the mythological term of “The Cosmic Womb” for the Milky Way centre creation.

- With this explanation, it is logically that Neith/Isis etc. gives birth to the Sun and everything in our Solar System. But there is another mythological “Sun” too, namely the mytheme of “the First Light”; “the Enclosed Light”; which is created in the centre of the Milky Way. This Primordial Light is very often mythologically confused for symbolizing the light of the Sun.

But when going into the creation story, it all comes together: The Mother Goddess becomes pregnant without having sex with a man, because “she” is created via the 4 basically universal elements and “she” creates herself in the Milky Way centre and everything else in the galaxy, including the male-like Milky Way contours of the northern hemisphere that first is mythologically pictured and described as “her son”, but later on becomes her consort husband as well.

In this sense, the Virgin Mother; the Great Goddess, gives birth both to the sun in our solar system and to a mythological son that becomes her heavenly Milky Way husband. In this sense a Virgin Mother gives birth to a son created from the Milky Way Light.

The ancient world picture.
Regarding the ancient known world picture, I only can find descriptions and creation stories that deals with the knowledge of the Milky Way as the then known physical Universe. That is: Besides the existence of the 4 elements that are eternal immanent all over in the Universe before any beginning takes place in a story of creation.

- For instants we have in the Norse Mytology the “3 world gards”/spheres: Midgard = the Earth in the middle; Asgard with the celestial objects of the day and night, and Udgard which describes the full seemingly revolving contours of the Milky Way where the Midgard Snake that encircles the Earth, also symbolizes the Milky Way ouroboros contours that again is divided in 2 hemispheres of a great god in the north, the Upperworld, and a great goddess in the south, the Underworld. The Milky Way contours also represent the mythological Giants; Cyclops; the Norse Jaetter etc.

tat tvam asi wrote:
Isis, as Neith, in the Temple inscription at Sais, says that she is the great virgin (Hwnt) whose veil has never been lifted and yet gave birth to the sun. That is what we are outlining in CiE. Goddesses are used to represent a variety of natural things such as the Dawn, the Moon, and even the Milky Way in some cases. So it's a question of which thing the myth is trying to represent at what time. Hathor is not mentioned in the Sais temple inscription of Isis as Neith. But what is being suggested is that Neith is basically existence itself - all that ever was, is, or shall ever be. And it is the realm of existence itself which gave rise to the sun, technically both the milky way galaxy and the sun. It trumps both observable objects as the absolute ultimate factor.

Now it does make sense to consider that in myth the sun could seem to have been born out of the milky way. But from where did the milky way arise in order to give birth to the sun? Was the milky way "all that ever was, is, or shall ever be?" No, I'm afraid the reference goes much deeper than that as does the intent of the Goddess symbolism involved...



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Native wrote:
the Primordial Mound (The bulged and luminous Milky Way centre) from where the goddess rises and gives birth to everything in the Milky Way galaxy. It is the goddess that is born first on the Primordial Mound

Native, when I read the story of the celestial mound, with Atum and Nu, it put me in mind of the nebula from which the solar system evolved, not the entire Milky Way Galaxy. I still don't see that you have shown any association between Isis and the Milky Way. There are some mentions on Wikipedia, but the Hathor and Ogdoad statements copied below are quite new to me, and do not seem to have much in the way of independent verification.

Looking at Wikipedia, I found

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum#Role
In the Heliopolitan creation myth established in the sixth dynasty, Atum was considered to be the first god, having created himself, sitting on a mound (benben) (or identified with the mound itself), from the primordial waters (Nu). Early myths state that Atum created the god Shu and goddess Tefnut from spitting her out of his mouth. In the Old Kingdom the Egyptians believed that Atum lifted the dead king's soul from his pyramid to the starry heavens.

This Atum material aligns with what I have read, but the comments below about Hathor are surprising.
Quote:
Hathor - Relationships, associations, images and symbols
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor#Rel ... nd_symbols

As a mother she gave birth to Ra each morning on the eastern horizon and as wife she conceives through union with him each day. Hathor, along with the goddess Nut, was associated with the Milky Way during the third millennium B.C. when, during the fall and spring equinoxes, it aligned over and touched the earth where the sun rose and fell.[12] The four legs of the celestial cow represented Nut or Hathor could, in one account, be seen as the pillars on which the sky was supported with the stars on their bellies constituting the milky way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed.[13] An alternate name for Hathor, which persisted for 3,000 years, was Mehturt (also spelt Mehurt, Mehet-Weret, and Mehet-uret), meaning 'great flood, a direct reference to her being the milky way.[citation needed] The Milky Way was seen as a waterway in the heavens, sailed upon by both the sun deity and the moon, leading the ancient Egyptians to describe it as The Nile in the Sky. Due to this, and the name mehturt, she was identified as responsible for the yearly inundation of the Nile. Another consequence of this name is that she was seen as a herald of imminent birth, as when the amniotic sac breaks and floods its waters, it is a medical indicator that the child is due to be born extremely soon. Another interpretation of the Milky Way was that it was the primal snake, Wadjet, the protector of Egypt who was closely associated with Hathor and other early deities among the various aspects of the great mother goddess, including Mut and Naunet. Hathor also was favoured as a protector in desert regions (see Serabit el-Khadim). Hathor's identity as a cow, perhaps depicted as such on the Narmer Palette, meant that she became identified with another ancient cow-goddess of fertility, Bat.


Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad#Egg_variant
Ogdoad - Egg variant

The first version of the myth has the entity arising from the waters after the interaction as a mound of dirt, the Milky Way, which was deified as Hathor. In the myth an egg was laid upon this mound by a celestial bird. The egg contained Ra. In the original version of this variant, the egg is laid by a cosmic goose. However, after the rise of the cult of Thoth, the egg was said to have been a gift from Thoth, and laid by an ibis, the bird with which he was associated.


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Last edited by Robert Tulip on Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
@Robert Tulip,

Thanks for your reply. (It seem that we timely “cross-posted” our last replies and if you wish to have a reply on some specific issues, just let me know.)

- When reading of myths from a culture with a long period of mythological telling, I´m quite sure you too are aware of the fact that we see a lot of overlapping deities throughout the different cultural periods. Sometimes one are left to nothing else than to simply compare the deity qualities and their attributes and if finding a lot of similarities, one can assume that we are talking of a younger deity taking over the mythological telling and qualities from an older deity – just like it is said and written about Isis taking over the role of Hathor. And when Hathor is clearly connected to the Milky Way, Isis logically also must have this primary Milky Way connection.

Regarding Isis

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis#Depictions

“In art, originally Isis was pictured as a woman wearing a long sheath dress and crowned with the hieroglyphic sign for a throne. Sometimes she was depicted as holding a lotus, or, as a Sycamore tree. One pharaoh, Thutmose III, was depicted in his tomb as nursing from a sycamore tree that had a breast.

After she assimilated many of the roles of Hathor, Isis's headdress is replaced with that of Hathor: the horns of a cow on her head, with the solar disk between them. Sometimes she also was represented as a cow, or a cow's head. Usually, however, she was depicted with her young child, Horus (the pharaoh), with a crown, and a vulture. Occasionally she was represented as a kite flying above the body of Osiris or with the dead Osiris across her lap as she worked her magic to bring him back to life.

Most often Isis is seen holding only the generic ankh sign and a simple staff, but in late images she is seen sometimes with items usually associated only with Hathor, the sacred sistrum rattle and the fertility-bearing menat necklace. In “The Book of Coming Forth By Day” Isis is depicted standing on the prow of the Solar Bark with her arms outstretched”.

(AD: I´m not sure that we here are talking of a “Solar Bark” because if Isis is connected to the Milky Way, these mythical ships represents the Crescent Milky Way half hemisphere contours with a radiant light symbolized as a star in the middle of the ship. Read also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Turkey#Le ... ry_origin)

The Primordial Mound
The 4 primordial elements/deities in the telling of the creation story are of course ALL in play when it comes to the formation of the Primordial Mound in the Milky Way centre, and therefore ALL the 4 elementary deities are connected to this mound as described below.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad

“The eight deities were arranged in four female-male pairs: Naunet and Nu, Amaunet and Amun, Kauket and Kuk, Hauhet and Huh. The females were associated with snakes and the males were associated with frogs. Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the female goddess from the male god in a pair; indeed, the names of the females are merely the female forms of the male name and vice versa. Essentially, each pair represents the female and male aspect of one of four concepts, namely the primordial waters (Naunet and Nu), air or invisibility (Amunet and Amun), darkness (Kauket and Kuk), and eternity or infinite space (Hauhet and Huh).

Together the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning, they are what always were. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced resulting in the arising of a new entity. When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things”.

AD: The 4 basically deity elements having both male and female deity qualities, interacts in the swirling formation process in the Milky Way centre and thereby the physical formation takes place, “forming everything” out form the Milky Way centre, inclusive the first major deities belonging to the contours of the Milky Way itself, the Great Goddess belonging to the southern hemisphere and the Great God belonging to the northern hemisphere. http://www.native-science.net/Forefather.Worship.htm

- The last sentence above the AD is very interesting indeed: “When the entity (in the Milky Way centre creation. Native) opened; it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things”.

It really states that the first creation is RA, “as the fiery Sun”. That is: RA represents the mytheme of the First Light of the Milky Way because this telling deals with the creation of the First and glorious Light on/in the Primordial Mound, the luminous Milky Way centre – long time before the creation of the solar system. Therefore RA is very likely not a “sun-god” but a Milky Way god.

- In the scholarly interpretation, this light mytheme is confused because the scholars for some reason or another ignore/fails to connect the right mythological telling with the right cosmological object. Knowing nothing or very little of the Milky Way creation, some scholars confuse the supreme Milky Way First Light of the Primordial Mound with the light of the Sun which of course gives a mythological and cosmological distorted telling that lacks logics.

Nebulae or Milky Way formation

The mythological telling of the Creation states an expulsion AWAY from the central Garden of Eden.

Regarding your thoughts of the formation of the sun/solar system out from local nebulae instead out from the Milky Way centre, the solar system is a rotating part in the Milky Way and is therefore connected to the general formation in the Milky Way. Modern cosmologists are claiming that everything in our galaxy is drawn into the centre of the Milky Way by a huge contractive force – but the stories of creation states the opposite motion: That everything was created in the “garden of Eden” and the telling of “the expulsion from the Garden of Eden” describes that everything is created in the Milky Way centre and leaving this centre, everything is moved out in the galactic surroundings in the Milky Way winged disc.

- This outgoing motion in our Milky Way galaxy instead of the cosmological/scientifically inwards attraction consensus is the reason for the cosmological/scientifically “galactic rotation anomaly” that contradicts and discard the Newtonian laws of gravity regarding the hypothesis motion of celestial bodies around gravity centre.

That is: The motion in our galaxy contradicts the Newtonian hypothesis and the actual motion around the Milky Way centre confirms the mythological telling of an outgoing motion, “out of the central Garden of Eden”. This creation story of course also deals with the creation of our solar system out from the Milky Way galaxy centre instead of the modern scientific telling of local nebulae separate formation.

If not already read from my linking above, you can find more Mytho-Cosmological explanations in my 2 combining articles here: http://vixra.org/author/Ivar_Nielsen

Cheers Native


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File comment: The 2 hemisphere Milky Way Crescent contours also represents the Male and Female Heavenly Ships.
(The Milky Way crescent is also confused as being the Moon Crescent)

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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Wikipedia is just not very reliable when anyone can go in there to edit and add whatever personal pet project or obsession they want and then quote it on their website to make it appear that their claims are supported when, in fact, they are not. Christians do this quite often or they'll remove evidence that proves them wrong.

Milky way myths are significant but not as primary as are solar/lunar mythology. Milky way myths do not give us the 12+12 24 hour day cycle, the average 28 day lunar monthly cycle, the 365 ish day yearly solar cycle, the four seasons, the solstices, equinoxes etc. The ancients recognized these cycles and created very important myths about them and passed the information along to the next generation. Calendars are solar &/or lunar based.

We wouldn't have a problem supporting Native's website on milky way myths AFTER all the false claims are removed. Until then, we cannot. I have already pointed out as just one example that the Trundholm sun chariot claim of symbolizing the milky way is utterly false but, Native completely omitted it and got mad at me for pointing out the obvious instead. I pointed out that it should be taken as constructive criticism. The Trundholm sun chariot claim is just one utterly false claim among many on Native/Ivar Nielsen's website. If Native/Ivar Nielsen were more open to accuracy and substantiating claims with valid evidence we'd get along fine but, he insists on making wild claims that are known to be false and then attempting to force them and his dreams down our throats. It appears that even small children understand solar mythology just goto youtube and look for "Teletubbies sun baby" video clips.

Robert, thanks for your great post above, however, I was hoping that Native would've provided us with his very own knowledge of milky way myths that exist throughout Christianity, or any other major modern religion for that matter, to see what he really knew for himself without help. I still don't think Native/Ivar Nielsen understands the point of Acharya's work at all - probably because he has never actually read it. I suppose that needs to be thoroughly explained to him.

Quote:
"In the field of comparative religion and mythology, we have focused largely on the most obvious and widespread practices, which are significantly solar and lunar. The solar mythology itself is so extensive and vast, in a enormous variety of languages dating back thousands of years, that it will take many years just to catalogue it all. The same can be said of the moon, as well as planets, stars and constellations, etc. There is a good-sized body of literature also about the planets Venus and Saturn, for example, as well as the "Seven Sisters" or Pleiades, which are now seen as six. All of these subjects are fascinating in their own right.

However, the most obvious and visible "lights in the sky" that drew the most prominent attention of the majority of ancient cultures are the sun and moon. These two celestial bodies are so obvious and prominent that they have affected a huge percentage of humanity - a very basic understanding even a child could fathom. Indeed, much of humanity follows a cult that falls within the solar and/or lunar category: Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism are largely solar, although they incorporate the moon as well; Judaism and Islam are largely lunar, although they have some solar symbolism.

I am interested in other aspects of astromythology or astrotheology, giving them the same degree of attention, more or less, that they were given by the ancients. Again, depending on the location and era, the ancients themselves were mainly focused on the sun and the moon. They created entire cultures based significantly on these celestial bodies, such as the Egyptian and the Inca, two of the most obviously solar cultures. There's no mystery here that these cultures were mainly SOLAR. Hence, we study the mythology of the sun when discussing these cultures.

I see other aspects of astral mythology such as the Pleiades, Venus, Saturn, Sirius, Orion or the Milky Way as secondary adjuncts, as did most of the ancient cultures. Again, they are interesting in and of their own right, but they are not more important than the sun and moon, which played the central role in most of these cults.

If someone wants to share research with me in a professional manner, I am always open to it. However, I am not interested in responding to those who approach in a hostile, obnoxious, disrespectful and antisocial manner. Nor can I consider seriously the efforts of those who cannot grasp the simple concepts I have outlined above."

- Acharya S



Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
It looked to me like Native wrote the Milky Way material in the Hathor and Ogdoad wikipedia pages. They line up with Native's views but not with any other sources I have seen.


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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
I thought so too. It's sad and frustrating because when a mythicist does that it really reflects poorly upon the reliability and credibility of all mythicists. No matter how wrong it is critics will perform the broad stroke generalization of putting all mythicists into that dishonest camp and ruin it for us all. It simply gives WMD ammo to the critics of mythology. It makes our job so much more difficult to regain credibility. The integrity and character of mythicists needs to be outstanding in order to convince academia and the general public of the case for mythicism.

I was actually hoping Robert would've proven my suspicions false. I'm really disappointed as I was hoping it wasn't true. :evil:

Robert Tulip wrote:
It looked to me like Native wrote the Milky Way material in the Hathor and Ogdoad wikipedia pages. They line up with Native's views but not with any other sources I have seen.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: The Virgin Isis-Mery
Freethinkaluva22,

Just note this: I don´t claim to have some arguments removed here or otherwhere if I don´t agree on the context, because this is only up to the authors themselves to judge if one meets better and more logical argumentation and explanations on a certain issue.

The very same would be a polite thing for you to do.

If you are so clever on the Trundholm Wagon subject, you perhaps could give me a mythological/scientifical/logical explanation how anyone can depict the sun being drawn in the daytime sky of a horse and make a myth out of it? Don´t give me any link to someone, but give me your own logical explanation, please.

- Otherwise I am stunned that a Forum moderator can argue in these terms:
Freethinkaluva22 wrote:
If Native/Ivar Nielsen were more open to accuracy and substantiating claims with valid evidence we'd get along fine but, he insists on making wild claims that are known to be false and then attempting to force them and his dreams down our throats. It would seem that even small children understand solar mythology just goto youtube and look for "Teletubbies sun baby" video clips.

AD: I really don´t omitt any questions or critique, but in your case I can´t stand your unpleasent method and personal judging tone, and I refuse the very idea of you asking me to remove anything from my website just because you think different. So that´s why I prefere to ignore you as much as possible until you changes your attitude.

Question: Have you had any personal out-of-body-visions? If you have, why do you devalue mine? If you haven´t, how can you then judge the content and meaning of mine?

- And how can you judge anything to be wrong in the Milky Way Mythology, if you "only" are an expert on solar/lunar mythology?

- I have no troubles understanding the solar or lunar ideas at all but my approach to mythology is focused on the Milky Way Mythology and the Stories of Creation and so be it.

As stated several times before: Give me some logical arguments on any cases if there is something that you don´t agree on - instead of your upleasant approaches that is discusting.

Pay some respect on my ideas before dealing with them, please.

Maybe then I´ll take you serious.
FTL99 wrote:
Wikipedia is just not very reliable when anyone can go in there to edit and add whatever personal pet project or obsession they want and then quote it on their website to make it appear that their claims are supported when, in fact, they are not. Christians do this quite often or they'll remove evidence that proves them wrong.

Milky way myths are significant but not as primary as are solar/lunar mythology. Milky way myths do not give us the 12+12 24 hour day cycle, the average 28 day lunar monthly cycle, the 365 ish day yearly solar cycle, the four seasons, the solstices, equinoxes etc. The ancients recognized these cycles and created very important myths about them and passed the information along to the next generation. Calendars are solar &/or lunar based.

We wouldn't have a problem supporting Native's website on milky way myths AFTER all the false claims are removed. Until then, we cannot. I have already pointed out as just one example that the Trundholm sun chariot claim of symbolizing the milky way is utterly false but, Native completely omitted it and got mad at me for pointing out the obvious instead. I pointed out that it should be taken as constructive criticism. The Trundholm sun chariot claim is just one utterly false claim among many on Native/Ivar Nielsen's website. If Native/Ivar Nielsen were more open to accuracy and substantiating claims with valid evidence we'd get along fine but, he insists on making wild claims that are known to be false and then attempting to force them and his dreams down our throats. It appears that even small children understand solar mythology just goto youtube and look for "Teletubbies sun baby" video clips.

Robert, thanks for your great post above, however, I was hoping that Native would've provided us with his very own knowledge of milky way myths that exist throughout Christianity, or any other major modern religion for that matter, to see what he really knew for himself without help. I still don't think Native/Ivar Nielsen understands the point of Acharya's work at all - probably because he has never actually read it. I suppose that needs to be thoroughly explained to him.

Quote:
"In the field of comparative religion and mythology, we have focused largely on the most obvious and widespread practices, which are significantly solar and lunar. The solar mythology itself is so extensive and vast, in a enormous variety of languages dating back thousands of years, that it will take many years just to catalogue it all. The same can be said of the moon, as well as planets, stars and constellations, etc. There is a good-sized body of literature also about the planets Venus and Saturn, for example, as well as the "Seven Sisters" or Pleiades, which are now seen as six. All of these subjects are fascinating in their own right.

However, the most obvious and visible "lights in the sky" that drew the most prominent attention of the majority of ancient cultures are the sun and moon. These two celestial bodies are so obvious and prominent that they have affected a huge percentage of humanity - a very basic understanding even a child could fathom. Indeed, much of humanity follows a cult that falls within the solar and/or lunar category: Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism are largely solar, although they incorporate the moon as well; Judaism and Islam are largely lunar, although they have some solar symbolism.

I am interested in other aspects of astromythology or astrotheology, giving them the same degree of attention, more or less, that they were given by the ancients. Again, depending on the location and era, the ancients themselves were mainly focused on the sun and the moon. They created entire cultures based significantly on these celestial bodies, such as the Egyptian and the Inca, two of the most obviously solar cultures. There's no mystery here that these cultures were mainly SOLAR. Hence, we study the mythology of the sun when discussing these cultures.

I see other aspects of astral mythology such as the Pleiades, Venus, Saturn, Sirius, Orion or the Milky Way as secondary adjuncts, as did most of the ancient cultures. Again, they are interesting in and of their own right, but they are not more important than the sun and moon, which played the central role in most of these cults.

If someone wants to share research with me in a professional manner, I am always open to it. However, I am not interested in responding to those who approach in a hostile, obnoxious, disrespectful and antisocial manner. Nor can I consider seriously the efforts of those who cannot grasp the simple concepts I have outlined above."

- Acharya S



Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:41 pm
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