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Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks 
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Post Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Booktalk.org has selected Christ in Egypt by D.M. Murdock as its non-fiction book discussion selection for August and September 2011.

To purchase the book directly from D.M. Murdock, visit http://stellarhousepublishing.com/christinegypt.html
This site also has the full table of contents, and a link to the preface and selected chapters for free on line. The Preface is quoted below.

Christ in Egypt can be purchased via Amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Egypt-Horu ... 0979963117
This site has 34 customer reviews, averaging 4.5 stars.

The discussion on the selection for this book raised some debate. It is a highly controversial book, providing an excellent introduction to some of the main mythological themes in Christianity. The thesis of the book is that Jesus Christ did not exist but was invented to continue Egyptian and other older religious traditions in the common era. This thesis completely undermines conventional Christian dogma. It presents major questions for history, politics, psychology, philosophy and theology. I hope this discussion on Booktalk.org will delve into some of these implications.

D.M. Murdock has said she will participate in this discussion. This is very welcome, and presents readers with a great opportunity to discuss the book directly with the author.

Readers may wish to comment on the structure of the discussion. We expect to establish threads for each chapter, but could also have thematic threads. All members are welcome to start threads.

D.M. Murdock wrote:
Preface to Christ in Egypt

by D.M. Murdock/Acharya S

"So there grew, during those first centuries of Christianity, a whole literature of the Hermetic sort in which the symbols, interpreted in the orthodox Christian tradition as historical, were being read in a proper mythological sense. And these then began to link the Christian myth to pagan analogues. The Gnostics, for instance, were in that boat. But the orthodox Christians insisted on the historicity of all these events."
Joseph Campbell, An Open Life

Over a century ago, renowned British Egyptologist Sir Dr. E.A. Wallis Budge (1857-1934), a Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities at the British Museum, as well as a confessed Christian, remarked that a study tracing the "influence of ancient Egyptian religious beliefs and mythology on Christianity" would "fill a comparatively large volume." Since Dr. Budge's time, for a variety of reasons, including the seemingly irreconcilable academic gap between historians and theologians, no one has taken up the call to produce such a volume—until now.

This book is the result of decades of study of the world's religions and mythologies, focusing on comparative religion with the intention of showing from where Christianity in particular likely devised many of its most cherished beliefs. My previous books on the subjects of comparative religion, mythology and Christian origins include: The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold; Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled; and Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ. I continue this ongoing investigation with the fascinating land of the pharaohs not only because that nation was extremely influential around the world into which Christianity was born, but also because it possesses so much material preserved from the centuries of destruction—much of it quite deliberate—that it is to Egypt we may look for solid, primary-source proof of our premise.

It should be noted, however, that I did not originally set out to prove a thesis established a priori but that, having been engaged in this field for so many years and, having been raised a Christian and knowing that faith very well, I have been struck over the decades by the profound and germane resemblances between it and pre-Christian and non-Christian religions, and it has become clear that Egypt was the fount of much of this religious and spiritual knowledge.

In this groundbreaking effort, I have used the latest and best technology to search far and wide through a massive amount of material across several languages, beginning with the ancient primary sources and extending into the modern era. In order to demonstrate a solid case, I have been compelled to do extensive and exhaustive research in the pertinent ancient languages, such as Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Coptic, while I have also utilized authorities in modern languages such as German and French.

Not only have I provided much important and interesting information directly addressing the striking comparisons between the Egyptian and Christian religions, but also I have exposed on several occasions various biases, censorship and other behaviors that have impacted mainstream knowledge over the centuries, allowing for certain revelations to come to light in English here possibly for the first time in history.

In order to set the stage for the various premises of each chapter, I have included quotations at the beginnings thereof, at times both modern and ancient. After thus providing a summary of the premise, in each chapter I delve into the relevant primary sources to whatever extent possible. In my analysis of the ancient Egyptian texts, I consulted and cross-referenced as many translations as I could find, and I attempted to defer to the most modern renditions as often as possible. All of this work was accomplished as truly independent scholarship, without funding from any group, organization or institution, as has been the case with all of my past endeavors as well.

The result is that Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection comprises some 600 pages with almost 2,400 footnotes and citations from more than 900 books, journals and assorted other sources from experts in germane fields of study from different time periods beginning in antiquity up to the most modern Egyptologists, in order to create a consensus of opinion since the topic is so contentious. In this regard, brief biographical material is also included for many of these authorities, so that readers may be assured of the individual's credentials. The broad scope of these sources dating from thousands of years ago to the most modern research means there can be no dismissive argument based on either a lack of primary sources or because the authorities cited are "outdated."

Yet, for all this erudition, I have hopefully succeeded in making Christ in Egypt as readily accessible to the average reader as possible, so that the book can be enjoyed by all who wish to know the hidden history of the origins of religious ideology. Some of the material may strike some readers as difficult and/or tedious, but I hope it will be understood that, in consideration of the controversial nature of this issue, it was necessary to be as thorough as possible. This book is therefore not meant to be a "quick read." Rather, it is intended as a reference book providing knowledge for years to come.

In comparison to other literature on the subject, the present book might be considered the most complete and scientific study of the Egyptian influence on Christianity ever produced in English. Each major contention and many minor ones have been carefully cited with an eye to as exacting accuracy as is possible, and every effort has been made to doublecheck particularly controversial facts. My intent has always been to restore the proper milieu of the eras in question, resurrecting cultures that have been the object of disinformation and disdain. In creating this opus, I experienced great delight at a number of significant germane features that came to light, and I offer this unusual but intriguing research in the spirit in which it was intended: To wit, to demonstrate that mankind's most cherished and fervently held religious beliefs are rooted firmly in human creation based on natural phenomena, without the need for supernatural genesis but nonetheless extraordinarily marvelous and meaningful.

D.M. Murdock
aka Acharya S
January 2009



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Everything you say is True. And I know how much work is tied to those things you say. However, there is one problem. What is the Myth based on. "Jesus went to Egypt and learned the Magic of Egypt." I have spent many years also and know what this magic is about. It is the basis for religion, actually many things. This magic has never been explained yet it is everywhere and spoken of by many of our most famous personages of the past, always in a Secretive Fashion. We know them as alchemists. The alchemy of the past is the Magic of Egypt. Jesus knew this Magic. A 'Myth" could not or would not know and speak of this magic as Jesus did! Jesus was also a Pagan, the Magic proves that! Jesus was a man, that "burnt his bread" as was said, and so was killed. It is true that all he spoke is tied to the same myth, but the base of that myth has never been explained. Osirs before Jesus was also tied to this Myth! Myself from G. Masseys books, I believe that in the distant past, this was a world wide religion. Parts, bits and pieces are everywhere. Knowing it can and should change everything. Even Sir W. Budge said in the intro to "Cleopatras Needles," "all of this must have been based on something." But he believed it was lost as to the long history and changes in Egypt. Al



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Hey Al, you'll have to read along to see what direction the author has taken. It probably isn't what you expect judging by the title. There's a bit of a twist involved...

As stated, this book focuses on the correspondences between the Egyptian religion and Christianity, especially as concerns Horus and Jesus. The chapter titles are:

Introduction
Horus, Sun of God
Horus versus Set
Born on December 25th
The Virgin Isis-Mary
The Star in the East and Three Kings
Horus at the Ages of 12 and 30
"Anup the Baptizer"
The Twelve Followers
Performing Miracles, Walking on Water, Healing the Sick and Raising the Dead
"The Truth, the Light and the Good Shepherd"
Was Horus "Crucified?"
Burial for Three Days, Resurrection and Ascension
The Alexandrian Roots of Christianity
Conclusion
Bibliography
Index


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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
AlSylvester wrote:
"Jesus went to Egypt and learned the Magic of Egypt."

Hi Al, welcome to Booktalk. Your post here illustrates the need for some ground rules about this discussion. My view on this is as follows, and others are welcome to comment.

When we discuss a book, the discussion should try to stick to that book. In this case, discussing ancient Egypt, we obviously have the risk of discussion being hijacked by numerous related esoteric theories such as yours. We really don't want the threads to be spammed up by people who push their pet theories without directly relating them to the book in question. So I would encourage you to get a copy of Christ in Egypt and look to see how Murdock discusses topics that are of interest to you. That is entirely welcome. But just telling us that you have an alternative theory is not really an appropriate input in this thread, unless you relate it directly to the book under discussion.

The problem with alchemy, as I see it, is that like traditional religion it is built more on imagination than observation. That is why alchemy has been replaced by chemistry. There is no evidence for anything supernatural or miraculous, and the burden of proof for proponents of such ridiculous ideas faces extreme skepticism, with all science arguing against it, and only their personal imagination as support. Yes, there is a lot of valid scholarship in relation to alchemy and symbolism, such as some of the work of Carl Jung, but there is no evidence for magical claims such as turning lead into gold. If you want to argue about this, please start a new thread, maybe in the science and technology forum, and link it to your introduction thread.

Murdock presents a scientific evidence-based analysis. Her critics try to associate her with unscientific claims, but my reading of the debate is that the critics are generally just trying to hide their own unscientific beliefs that are demolished by the Christ Myth Theory.



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Hi Robert, Just so you can think about your remarks. I have spent now 40 years learning alchemy It is not what the world has thought it was, it is the basis for the Egyptian Religion. I can prove everything I might say or I wouldn't say it. Check out who the real alchemists of the past were and consider that just perhaps it is not what you think it is. You, like almost everyone else has no idea of the past or what it was about. Jesus knew it, so did the Secret Societies. I know it now. You just might be surprised. Im new here, but want no problems. Everything I said is True, and it is not a pet Theory, also, Mr. Jung was wrong and he neither knew alchemy! For your consideration, Al



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
AlSylvester wrote:
Hi Robert, Just so you can think about your remarks. I have spent now 40 years learning alchemy It is not what the world has thought it was, it is the basis for the Egyptian Religion. I can prove everything I might say or I wouldn't say it. Check out who the real alchemists of the past were and consider that just perhaps it is not what you think it is. You, like almost everyone else has no idea of the past or what it was about. Jesus knew it, so did the Secret Societies. I know it now. You just might be surprised. Im new here, but want no problems. Everything I said is True, and it is not a pet Theory, also, Mr. Jung was wrong and he neither knew alchemy! For your consideration, Al


That is fine Al, and you are welcome to promote your ideas, but make sure you do it in the right spot, eg one of the general discussion forums. There was obviously a lot of magical belief in ancient Egypt, such as mentioned in the Emerald Tablets of Thoth, and there is the mystery of how they moved such large blocks of stone. But this thread is for Murdock's book.

You claim knowledge about Jesus, but there is no evidence that Jesus actually lived. There may well be alchemy in the Bible, but that does not prove Jesus Christ was a historical individual. It is much more likely that he was invented by the societies you mention as a symbolic figurehead. Check out what Murdock has to say about the Therapeuts in Alexandria.



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
I just ordered my copy from Amazon. Appears to be very... thorough. That I can recall, I've never read about or been exposed to a connection between the Christ myth and this Horus. Sounds intriguing!



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Hey Al, this book isn't about the alchemy aspect of the Egyptian religion. It's just about the general Osiris, Isis, and Horus myths (among others) and how pre-existing motifs were made use of when Christianity was organizing itself. It was a process.

She takes a look at what was going on during the first century as far as written history can provide from that contemporary time period. Philo and the Therapuets are outlined in the book as Robert mentioned. No such figure as a trouble making Jesus Christ in Jerusalem was ever mentioned by Philo or any other historian who was writing in the region and contemporary to the supposed life, trial, and death of the gospel Jesus. People who were in, around, and writing about the goings on of Jersusalem are completely silent about any such thing happening historically - as is stated in the Jewish Encyclopedia. The Jewish record is entirely silent.

If you're unfamiliar with these facts then you should go ahead and get a copy of CiE and join us in discussion. You can quote from the book and cite the pages in question that you wish to inquire about it. And you can ask questions of the author as well because she'll be joining us all in discussion as time permits.


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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
I'm going to buy the book right now and I am looking forward to the discussion. I've heard some about these overlaps (Christ and Horus, for example) but it will be interesting to learn more!



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Hi again all. As quickly as I can. what Alchemy is. I found a 16 month process with 8 steps. Those steps are now our religious holidays. The process is everything about Osiris and Horus and Isis. The process became the religion. In time it became Christianity. What was done in the steps was how it was Celebrated in Egypt. The Catholic church changed some of what and how it was Celebrated, but it is easy to see and understand. Now the process was a secret! To talk about meant death. Even the alchemists couldn't for same reason. Jesus knew this and talked about it and so was 'Hung on a Tree." My point. I know the information and can read alchemy. I know from what a man said if he was one. Jesus spoke of alchemy in many, well lets just say in most of the Gnostics. You, no one knows this information. I do, after many long and hard years. I will discuss it on the forums. I would never embarrass Acharya in any way. My point is that if you knew alchemy 'The ancient magic of Egypt" you would know the man Jesus knew it. It is why he was killed as said, "he burnt his bread." If you can understand, if he was just myth, the secret knowledge wouldn't be there. Yes, I agree 100% he was tied to all of it (the mythology) as was Osiris. But, what is important, what was the myth about. That is what I found. For your information I wrote, "The Alchemy Connection" in 1978. Thought it was about seeds, it was but the seed is an egg! I can and will explain 100 things to all of you that you never heard. The Virgin Birth, Baptism, Resurrection, Easter, Christmas, Original Sin everything "Originally" is from this process. Al



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Thanks Robert, I'm glad that the "Preface" to Christ in Egypt is posted here. There are several significant points in Acharya's Preface that most may not quite grasp from the quotes from Joseph Campbell and Budge, an Egyptologist and professed Christian to ...

On p. vi, Acharya refers to:

Quote:
"the seemingly irreconcilable academic gap between historians and theologians."

These remarks are directed at the notion that pre-WW2 scholarship is "outdated," as has been claimed by Richard Carrier, among others. It's fair to say some scholarship in this field is outdated, as it is in pretty much every field after a few years or decades, but broadstroke generalizations are patently erroneous and false. In order to determine what is "outdated," we would actually need to have many qualified people studying the subject, but modern scholarship still isn't even attempting to look at astrotheology or the case for mythicism. People need to know that New Testament and theological students are not required to study those subjects in order to receive their Ph.D. So, expecting scholars, theist or atheist, to be knowledgeable on these issues is often expecting too much; hence the, "irreconcilable academic gap between historians and theologians." They simply aren't even looking at these issues from an astrotheological or mythicist standpoint.

Another problem few are aware is that so many of our famous top universities actually began as religious institutions. Religion has never let go of it's stranglehold on religious studies throughout academia. It has been a losing battle to fight against the religious special-interest funding, which has had serious influence on what types of studies take place and what departments are created.

Where I'd like to see us be in 10 years ... I'd like to see academia finally create a sorely needed Department of Astrotheological Studies, which would factor in astronomy, mythology and archaeoastronomy. Archaeoastronomy was only recently added as a new department in the mid 90's.

We have a mountain of evidence demonstrating that the origins of religious concepts stem from natural phenomena, i.e., nature worship. It has evolved over time due to similarities and differences in environment, culture and era. It's just basic common sense and offers an Occam's razor explanation for the origins and evolution of religion throughout all history.

On p. vii, Murdock discusses her research methods:

Quote:
"exhaustive research in the pertinent ancient languages, such as Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Coptic, while I have also utilized authorities in modern languages such as German and French."


Not many people can do that. Obviously, some can, but they don't necessarily on this subject.

Continuing in the Preface, Murdock talks about how in her other writings, she has:

Quote:
"exposed various biases and censorship"

This exposure needs to be known and out in the open for all to see.

Quote:
"In my analysis of the ancient Egyptian texts, I consulted and cross-referenced as many translations as I could find, and I attempted to defer to the most modern renditions as often as possible."

Can't accuse her of outdated sources. In fact, she's got something like 900 sources, in about 2,400 footnotes. From my knowledge of the subject, Murdock's used the works of the most famous Egyptologists of the past three centuries, including the most modern. She's also got biographical information on them so we know that they are credentialed in relevant fields.

Quote:
"All of this work was accomplished as truly independent scholarship, without funding from any group, organization or institution, as has been the case with all of my past endeavors as well."

That means she's not restrained by any governing body, like she would be if she were at one of these biased universities and colleges. You also can't accuse her, as some Christian apologists like to do, of being part of some Illuminati or any other conspiracy group or any group of any kind. Her work is truly independent scholarship.

The Preface actually addresses criticisms of her first book, The Christ Conspiracy, which i understand Acharya is currently working on an updated 2nd edition. People still obsess on the same criticisms of her first book, even though she's written five more since then and shown where many of the original contentions come from, using a wide variety of sources from the earliest times to the most modern. This book, Christ in Egypt, is extremely well documented and very reliable in that regard.



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
AlSylvester wrote:
Hi again all. As quickly as I can. what Alchemy is. I found a 16 month process with 8 steps. Those steps are now our religious holidays. The process is everything about Osiris and Horus and Isis. The process became the religion. In time it became Christianity. What was done in the steps was how it was Celebrated in Egypt. The Catholic church changed some of what and how it was Celebrated, but it is easy to see and understand. Now the process was a secret! To talk about meant death. Even the alchemists couldn't for same reason. Jesus knew this and talked about it and so was 'Hung on a Tree." My point. I know the information and can read alchemy. I know from what a man said if he was one. Jesus spoke of alchemy in many, well lets just say in most of the Gnostics. You, no one knows this information. I do, after many long and hard years. I will discuss it on the forums. I would never embarrass Acharya in any way. My point is that if you knew alchemy 'The ancient magic of Egypt" you would know the man Jesus knew it. It is why he was killed as said, "he burnt his bread." If you can understand, if he was just myth, the secret knowledge wouldn't be there. Yes, I agree 100% he was tied to all of it (the mythology) as was Osiris. But, what is important, what was the myth about. That is what I found. For your information I wrote, "The Alchemy Connection" in 1978. Thought it was about seeds, it was but the seed is an egg! I can and will explain 100 things to all of you that you never heard. The Virgin Birth, Baptism, Resurrection, Easter, Christmas, Original Sin everything "Originally" is from this process. Al

That's fine if you'd like to pass on esoteric knowledge you've collected over the years, but as Robert was saying this book discussion in not the correct place for that. The Religion and Philosophy forum is where that topic needs to be. And those interested can join in the discussion there. We're sticking to the book content here on these forums dedicated to discussing the book. So let's cut off all side tracking and discuss the scholarship in CiE as everyone is trying to do right now.

Thank you.


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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
spoonwood wrote:
I just ordered my copy from Amazon. Appears to be very... thorough. That I can recall, I've never read about or been exposed to a connection between the Christ myth and this Horus. Sounds intriguing!


Then you're going to probably have several "aha" moments as you read along. I was very taken back by all of these similarities when I first began to discover this scholarship.


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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
To show the intellectual context of this cultural debate, there are Christian apologists who feel that continually smearing D.M. Murdock gives them credentials among their friends.

One of the worst is a coward and fool by the name of Tom Verenna, who is happy to defame Murdock on his blog but censors any effort to correct his lies in comments to his blog.

In the linked post he states " Zeitgeist is not taken seriously (nor should it be). And their reactions have been quite similar to those of the creationist movement’s attack on the life sciences." Murdock has few ways to respond to this sort of calumny, because the people who spout it only listen to each other, and reinforce their delusions, in the time-honored tradition of Christian dogmatics. As I mentioned earlier, the dogmatists use "Zeitgeist" as a catch-all term of abuse for the Christ Myth Theory as interpreted in astrotheology.



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
I don't really understand what the big shocker is about astrotheology and how ZG brought the term to popularity. You look around at the world and there's evidence of the ancients obsession with the sky all over the place. That we have evolved on this planet and during that process religions have evolved as well, is but a given. But to the entrenched it isn't such a given. Judaism and Christianity didn't simply spontaneously emerge out of nowhere, they have evolved from earlier beliefs and practices which were largely astrotheological in nature. The very social structure of Judaism (12 tribes and temple rituals and structure) modeled the 12 constellations, 12 hours of the day and night, and this was very Egyptian. Knowing that the Canaanite city-state system was Egyptian ruled and that ancient Israel seemed to emerge from the outcome of the breaking up of the Egyptian ruled city-state system, tends to shed light on why so much Egyptian mythology is present in Judaism when there's no solid evidence to place the Jews in Egypt historically. They didn't need to have ever been in Egypt to have these Egyptian mythological roots. And those roots come with astrotheological implications. That much will become quite evidence as the investigation in the book continues along...


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