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Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks 
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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
What we see here are deep slow currents of cultural change. Adherents of existing paradigms have emotional attachment to their belief systems, and are not amenable to examining evidence that disrupts their assumptions.

The scientific enlightenment emphasised a distinction between facts and myths, denigrating myth as false. So, when astrotheology argues that myths are allegory for natural observation, the emotional beliefs of scientists kick in to say all this discussion is irrational, and they really struggle to understand what is being discussed.

The scientific attitude has its roots in old Christian dogma, for example the claim that Noah's Ark is a historical fact while Greco-Roman mythology is imaginary fantasy. This sounds strange these days, as we all know that Noah's Ark is just as imaginary as Zeus. But transferring the discussion to the existence of Christ is a very different kettle of fish. 99% of Christians simply cannot imagine that the Gospels are fraudulent. This is so very unsettling that instincts of denial set up barriers straight away.

Astrotheology opens a path to a new paradigm regarding the relation of humanity and nature. The old Abrahamic idea of humans as superior to and separate from the natural world is very deeply ingrained, and it takes far more than evidence and argument to shift it. It is rather like the slow process of tectonic shift. Steady slow pressure over a long period eventually results in a sudden big realignment. A natural earthquake is similar to the cultural tremors that occur when the zeitgeist shifts.



Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:02 am
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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
FTL99 wrote:
the notion that pre-WW2 scholarship is "outdated," as has been claimed by Richard Carrier.


This Carrier fellow seems unduly polemical. It is false to assume a linear progress theory of scholarship. Reading Gerald Massey, and also the amazing work of Alvin Boyd Kuhn, it is obvious that scholarship moves both forward and backward, as older research is forgotten and interests change. Some brilliant scholars are neglected. Theology in the twentieth century simply failed to take account of what Massey and Kuhn said.

Carrier's specious argument rejecting the value of older work on Christianity and Egypt is a bit like someone saying in the fourth century that Egyptian myth was outdated because it had been superseded by Christianity, or a Russian biologist saying Mendel was outdated because he had been superseded by Lysenko...

Murdock's critique of Carrier's sexual misreading of Egyptian myth is something we might discuss when we get up to the chapter about how the Egyptian goddess Isis was the template for the virgin Mary. Carrier may not be an apologist himself, but he has engaged with casuistic theological disputes that make no sense if you take the mythicist argument seriously, such as on the supposed empty tomb on Easter Sunday.



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
"99% of Christians simply cannot imagine that the Gospels are fraudulent. This is so very unsettling that instincts of denial set up barriers straight away."

The Truth is that there is more to the story. The Gospels seem fradulant because there is no scholar that knows what they are based on. Was Jesus a myth based on the Ancient Religion of Egypt, Osiris and Isis? I would think it necessary to know what Osiris was based on. As that has never been explained, how is it anyone can say what is the myth, or what is the fact of the idea and how understood. It would seem that obviously, it was based on something! Sir W. Budge said that it must have been based on something (Cleopatras Needle) but he believed that it was lost! Point, Sir W Budge believed it was based on something, but is it truly lost? How can a scholar prove anything of the past if they do not know what it all was based on? How can any of you even discuss it?

Al



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
"Murdock's critique of Carrier's sexual misreading of Egyptian myth is something we might discuss when we get up to the chapter about how the Egyptian goddess Isis was the template for the virgin Mary."


In many or most of the past religions of the region discussed, most had a Virgin Birth. The above statement would seem to indicate then that all were based on Isis! For this to be True, then it would mean that Isis was the original. But, then how is it there are older religions and they also have the Virgin Birth. Seems there must be more that we need to find out before we can state what is based on which.

Al



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
AlSylvester wrote:
"99% of Christians simply cannot imagine that the Gospels are fraudulent. This is so very unsettling that instincts of denial set up barriers straight away."

The Truth is that there is more to the story. The Gospels seem fradulant because there is no scholar that knows what they are based on. Was Jesus a myth based on the Ancient Religion of Egypt, Osiris and Isis? I would think it necessary to know what Osiris was based on. As that has never been explained, how is it anyone can say what is the myth, or what is the fact of the idea and how understood. It would seem that obviously, it was based on something! Sir W. Budge said that it must have been based on something (Cleopatras Needle) but he believed that it was lost! Point, Sir W Budge believed it was based on something, but is it truly lost? How can a scholar prove anything of the past if they do not know what it all was based on? How can any of you even discuss it?

Al

This comes across as if you haven't read the book and are confused about the content of the book Al. If that is the case then I can briefly point out that Murdock goes over the myths what is discovered is that Osiris is a personification of the suns journey through the night, the underworld as the Egyptians believed. They thought that the sun went under the earth during the evening and Osiris pretty much represented the sun from midnight until dawn, at which point the became Horus born of the virgin dawn. In short, the myth is based on the sun.

Al wrote:
"Murdock's critique of Carrier's sexual misreading of Egyptian myth is something we might discuss when we get up to the chapter about how the Egyptian goddess Isis was the template for the virgin Mary."


In many or most of the past religions of the region discussed, most had a Virgin Birth. The above statement would seem to indicate then that all were based on Isis! For this to be True, then it would mean that Isis was the original. But, then how is it there are older religions and they also have the Virgin Birth. Seems there must be more that we need to find out before we can state what is based on which.

Al

Yes, and in Murdocks other works she discusses the various virgin mothers and indeed the virgin mother motif in general as concerns dawn Goddesses and such. But the discussion in CiE pin points a specific link between Egyptian religion and Christianity. The front cover says everything. Mary and Jesus have been fashioned to duplicate images of Isis and Horus. There is no statement saying that all virgin dawn Goddesses were based on Isis. What Robert is referring to is specific chapter about Richard Carrier which will be discussed when we reach that chapter.


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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Hi Tat, First I don't want to get into it in depth because, well many reasons and as you indicated, we are not yet at that chapter.

"over the myths what is discovered is that Osiris is a personification of the suns journey through the night, the underworld as the Egyptians believed. They thought that the sun went under the earth during the evening and Osiris pretty much represented the sun from midnight until dawn, at which point the became Horus born of the virgin dawn. In short, the myth is based on the sun." Yes, there is a lot of Truth to this statement. But there is more information that is unknown. The basis of all the past has to do with a Process that perfected matter. This process is Platonics! It is tied to Astrology. It is a copy of the Creation. All our burial customs are based on it. Heaven, spirit (Sun) soul (moon) all is from this process. All secret Societies are about it yet, it is totally unknown! Alchemy, is actually the Lost Past and from Ancient Egypt. Alchemy is totally unknown! It is not about in any way, Lab processes. Yet, there are Lab Alchemists all over the world. Yes, it is also about the sun as it moves throughout the yearly cycle. In fact, the Emerald Tablet said, "It is a work of the sun!' But, Tat, it is not about the sun! "A work of the Sun.! This should indicate to you that somehow something is changed by the sun. It is about matter and how to Perfect the matter. This perfected matter made you a "Christos" if you took it or were fed it over time. In other words, you became perfected by it. This process is what Osiris was based on, and so, eventually Jesus. Jesus knew this process, all about it and used the substance to cure the sick in his name! Yet, all this is unknown! How could a myth know of this information? I would say that because Jesus knew it, he was a man, and would be defined as an alchemists and Holy Man as he was. Yet no scholar know this information! I would think that if any of what I have said was True, all would want to know and see the evidence, to finally know our past and what it was about.

And so a question. Do I stay here and as the material is discussed explain the Truth to what is being discussed, or would you rather I just leave and let blogtalk be? It is not my goal to upset anyone, especially Acharya as I think she is a special person and I do have Great Respect for her. But it is about what may be the past as all should know it. It is as Mr budge said, "Based on something" and the knowledge of it will change everything. Sorry, everything is tied to it and so it cannot be easilly explained. Please remember it has never been explained. Consider the religion of Egypt, Osiris, knowing Egypt and some of what they acomplished, do you think the religion is based on Myth?

Al



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Yes, the Egyptian religion is based on a mythology. All religions are based on mythologies though. And within these mythologies are mythological subject matter. John Anthony West is convinced that the Egyptians were up to alchemy and he devoted and entire series to trying to prove it. But CiE is not concerned with zeroing in on alchemical information. This book is concerned with simply documenting many of the parallels between the Egyptian religion of resurrection and the Christian religion of resurrection. The further details beneath these correspondences don't really concern the intent of CiE. They may or may not be there, it doesn't really matter. The book is not about looking for some valid alchemical material passed from Egypt to Christianity. The book is about looking at how the mythology of Jesus could have been created as a hybridizing religious effort conducted by Alexandrian Hellenized Jews and others, perhaps ordered to try and create such a hybrid. We'll get into that as the book goes along.

If you wish to make assertions about Jesus being a real man who knew this, or said that, we'll have to start at square one and ask that you meet the burden of proof and provide credible evidence showing beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus is even based on one particular historical person. You need to start with the evidence and then move forward from there. Can you do that?


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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Hi Tat,

Yes, I believe I can. Let me tell you quickly. The ancients found how to perfect matter with nature.That perfected matter Jesus had. All true alchemists had it,. They all knew and explained 1 and the same process. It became the religion of Osiris. You know a lot of the rest. What I can do is explain the process. The steps are linked to our religious holidays. They are linked to everything the ancients did in Egypt. They are linked to astrology. They are linked to the Secret Societies, and lastly, the Gnostic Gospels are all about the process. Everybody knew this process, and I am sure there are some that know it today. I know it, and I am willing to explain it. Now I am willing to do just that. All i require is a bunch of your group to work with me to learn, not argue every point or everything I say. So much is tied to it, even Darwin. When you know all of it, then you will be able to see why Jesus was a real person. What Osiris is based on and so, the catholic religion. You will know many of what has been said is wrong. You will know that without the understanding, nothing of the past can be truly explained. You will know where organized religion came from, where God came from, why all the link to the sun, everything can be explained. But, I won't do it unless i can get what i want. That is just as I said, a bunch to work with that will try to learn and understand. There is just so much to it that it really takes time and alchemical information to understand.

Why I am saying this? I have at other places tried to explain, one the first day arguing starts. Why? God is about recycling matter. They believed it was perfected and that proved God as he is the only perfect thing. It was about an egg and a pyramid. Sounds nuts right off, but check ancient Egypt, that is what they believed. Most people want to believe in god and Spirit and soul. All is from this process, and how they understood it. Today, few if any will believe any of it because all want to believe in something. Spirit as all think we have is the essence collected from the sun. Do you believe in Adam, that your a long time descendent of his? That there was a Garden and original creation? Do you want to know Genesis is about what is outside right now? All was understood by them from what and how they understood. You will not see things that way now. so, what will be left for you to believe in? To me there is no problem with it because with what i found, I see intelligent design in everything. To me that is God. I believe in a God of nature just as most educated of the past believed. Beyond that there is little else.

I use Massey. I have hundreds of things from his books that he couldn't explain that ties to this process that he never knew. John A. West doesn't know it either. I will explain the Secret Societies, whatever you want explained, no problem. Lots to cover, and I will do all of it. But, what will be the end result?

when you know all this, and know that Jesus knew it, does that mean he was a real person? To me it does. yes he was tied to the myth. The chirch wanted to control the people. The people knew the ancient religion and celebrasted it. The church simply changed the names and why they celebrated and tried to destroy everything of the past. The alchemist knew though. They carried it on as best they could. You do not know alchemy, neither does anyone else except for myself. When you do know it, then everything you thought you knew will change. You set it up somehow, and I will do exactly as I said. It is important for many reasons. Just consider, what if I am right. I give you my word, you will not waste your time.



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Does that prove beyond doubt that such a man as the Jesus of the gospels ever existed? No, not even close. You've just speculated that because you think this character in a story expressed knowledge of alchemical procresses that you yourself claim to know, that Jesus must have been historical. What if the story was written by esoterics who were trying to combine their alchemical knoweldge into a storyline avatar for the age of Pisces so as to have a means to pass along their collected knoweldge dating to deep antiquity? Then the alchemical knowledge would be present and yet the person in the story would be a fictional figure head serving the purpose of representing a certain body of knowledge, not literal history.

If you understand so little about the Genesis myth, as you've shown me by your commentary on Genesis, then why would I look to you as a teacher? That would be more the case of the blind wishing to lead the blind further along into the darkness of confusion. The world is over run by confusion and much of it relates to religious mythology - the world is a Babylon the Great of sorts, a great confusion. The Christ myth is no exception. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks that the real Jesus was this or that. But all of this comes from skipping over the first step of first settling the issue of whether or not the mythology was even based on an historical person to begin with and then proceeding from there...


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C) The Mythicist Position

D) YEC theory put to rest!


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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
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The ancients found how to perfect matter with nature.That perfected matter Jesus had. All true alchemists had it,.


"Perfection" isn't a characteristic of matter. It only applies in the sense of how a person wants to use the matter, or to what ends.

It's a nonsensical idea clouded in subjectivity. There are a large number of ways to interpret any given single event or phenomena, which is why the discipline of science is needed. It's a filter, to ensure all the world uses the same words for the same phenomena. To ensure the characteristics described are primary/objective rather than subjective and interpretive. If you translated all your beliefs into mainstream terminology and ideas, the fog of mysticism would vanish.

What you really need is a bunch of people to argue every point and play devil's advocate. Not a bunch of lemurs agreeing with your every word. However, that discussion is for another thread, it's a tangent in this thread. Re-post in your other threads if you wish to continue Sly, they're still here.



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Hi Tat, and Interbane.

My argument is that Jesus had specific knowledge unknown to scholars. In Archarys book she in one part in the first chapter said that the information was known by the priest of the temples, but by no others. She also said that the church did everything to destroy this information, and killed millions. Other Holy Men, and men of science knew this information. We call them Alchemists. There work is not explained. I can prove that for as many times as you wish. Can you blame them for putting the information into metaphor? It kept the information, and they stayed alive. In the Gnostic Gospels, it states that Jesus was killed because he "Burnt his Bread' which means he spoke of this material to persons that were unworthey to know. Sure, what you say could very well be the Truth. But the point is Jesus knew secret information. It was information of the Magic of Egypt which he was not supposed to divulge. And so, you want to say that a bunch of others talked of this secret knowledge? For what purpose, to be killed also for doing it? And by your understanding your saying that the Esoterics passed on secret Knowledge?? And so, do you think it is time to know and understand that knowledge or do we just pass it up for another hundred years? Lastly Tat, you said by my discussion of Genesis that I don't know much about it! Guess what, I know how to use Genesis to Perfect Matter, and explain the past. Not bragging, but I doubt anyone alive has spent as much time with Genesis trying to learn how to use it and what it meant than I have. Perhaps you could tell me what I said is so rediculous. Just because it has never been explained as being of what is outside now, does that mean it is wrong? Archarya also said that most of the past was linked to the outside and the stars, etc. Is it hard to believe there was a way of using nature to work with matter, and what they found is the basis of the religion? This also I can show because the word definitions are tied to this process I mention. Why would that be so if it wern't true? You cannot develope a process by what is here, you develope the process and then you "assume" those condition at that time of years caused it to happen, which is what they did. Also, an in depth understanding of what is outside as was understood by the ancients proves Darwin was only finding ancient understanding of nature. His theory is very old. Read the Book of the Dead and explain all the terms where they speak of evolution.

Hi Interbane. See by the above why I said what I did. I don't understand Genesis? With no explanation of what it is that I don't understand! This from a person that never used it to do anything. A person that may think it means the world was created in less than a week! I really don't know how he understands it as he said nothing except my explanation is wrong.

I agree with how you describe perfection of matter. The point is this. 'You have to see things as the Ancients seen and understood them," to understand the ancients. It took me a long time to learn that. I never said I believed the matter is perfect. I have said that 'today one of our lab Persons would take it apart and it would be a series of chemical equasitions. But as to my beliefs. There were many alchemists as I said. All famous persons so to speak. Each described it in his own way. Abraham used seven tablets. Some used 150. Everything in between is there to be found. Also, the process is overlapped in most of the series. That is why it has never been explained. Now i can explain them to you and whom ever. But I would like a group that would try to work with me rather than cut me down because what i said is not how they understand. Again Archarya said, first chapter, something like, even Osiris is never found in one whole text. you have to put together many fragments to get the whole story. Even then it is hard. Well, alchemy is that way also. what i show you in one series you may think rediculous, but i will cross reference it with 35 others? Is that enough? But the point, it takes time to get it all out, and if I have to argue each point it will take a long time, and most will think it stupid and rediculous, and never get to the part about Jesus. When you learn all that need be known, you will for years add to what you know. Then you decide if Jesus was real. He knew and spoke of Secret Information. He was kiilled for it. Think what you want about all of it, that is how we humans work isn't it? But youll have to come up with a better reason than what Tat said, Holy men did not speak of it and so they wouldn't have put it all out there in text!

The whole thing yes is Myth. It is a lot of misunderstanding. It is a lot of silly stupid beliefs, but it is our past. I know it has never been explained, I know I am no scholar, but that is what your stuck with if we do this. I have tried to work with a scholar, many. All figure I am not qualified to know or discuss. That also is in Archarys book, first chapter. I figure the medicine is the only way Ill ever get the information out. I only have one step that is still a puzzle out of 8. I have done it, and I will again. With this one step, everyone will do it and then all will have the medicne again. It was that way in the "distant" past, and perhaps will be again.

All need to think before they speak. I still want to know what it is I don't know of Genesis!

Al



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Genesis is a mixture of ancient near eastern creation myth. It is carefully arranged into a seven day format for the purpose of using the astrotheological number 7, which, is the number of celestial orbs which appeared to orbit around the earth - sun, moon, and five luminaries. The number 7 was a sacred astrotheological number before Genesis 1 was arranged. The writer set up the metaphorical "days" not as literal days, but rather to set up three environments of existence with the corresponding inhabitants for each of the three environments:

Environment of existence-------Inhabitants of environment

Day 1 (heavens and earth, light) - Day 4 (sun, moon, and stars)
Day 2 (sea and air separation) - Day 5 (sea and air creatures)
Day 3 (dry land and organic life) - Day 6 (land creatures and man)

Day 7 (the end of the visible planets, and so rest on Saturn's [El] day)

This came after Genesis 2, the older less defined creation myth which was eventually tossed in behind the more defined version during the late Bible writing periods. Campbell attributes this creation myth to Sumerian and Babylonian influence more than anything. Although the Israelites appear to have arisen from within the Canaanite population some time after the final breakdown of the Egyptian ruled Canaanite city-state system. Then later they were taken into captivity in Babylon and released back home by the Persians with their Zoroastrian beliefs. Then, finally, the Bible writing periods that are responsible for the scriptures we now read through began. So there's a mixing pot of influence responsible for these myths. Add to that the Alexandrian Septuagint and influence on the NT via the Septuagint.

CiE is a scholarly endeavor and it involves readily admiting that esoteric symbolism and mysticism was passed on from Egypt to Christianity. The Therapuets were writing allegorical stories during late 1st century BCE through the early first century CE as recorded by Philo and others. And chances are the Christ myth had it's early beginnings during this process. By the late 2nd century CE the gospels begin to appear into the historical record, still very allegorical but set to historical storyline formats, while the histories tend to contradict one another depending on the writer in question. These mystics responsible for all of this could well have been into alchemy, granted, but that only means that if you see alchemy in the storyline character of the gospels it's because the writers chose to present the storyline character in that way. Is it from the early first century influence from the Therapuets and Philo's divine "Logos" having been used as a blue print and then personified and taken as historical by the time of the second century as these allegorical writings continued passing around? You don't have a leg to stand on when saying that Jesus is proven historical because of something that a character playing the role of solar personification said and did within the context of an allegorical storyline. None of this comes remotely close to starting out with credible evidence for the historicity of the storyline character and then moving forward from there with certainty in his existence. You're jumping the starting line with every attempt you make...


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A) The Origins of Religious Worship

B) The Christmas Nativity

C) The Mythicist Position

D) YEC theory put to rest!


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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
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Hi Interbane. See by the above why I said what I did. I don't understand Genesis? With no explanation of what it is that I don't understand! This from a person that never used it to do anything. A person that may think it means the world was created in less than a week!


There are a million viable perspectives by which to interpret the bible. Few have evidence. That the bible is an evolved collection of myths partially based in astrotheology is a claim about what the ancients believed. It is not a claim that there is actually some divine presence among the stars, represented in anthropomorphic form by Christ. That is what the ancients believed. As false as their belief in Earth as the center of the universe. It is one thing to analyze their beliefs as an explanation for their storytelling. It is entirely something else to piggyback on top of the beliefs themselves and use the bible as evidence. It's rather circular.

Is this what you're claiming: The ancients believed in alchemy, but you understand it to be chemistry with the supernatural elements added as storytelling fluff.

Or do you believe there is some supernatural potency to alchemy?



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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Hi Interbane,

Very simply as best as I understand it. The ancients wanted to know if there was a God. How to find. All there was is nature and the year. They studied all of nature. They found Phi, Sacred Geometry, the music scale, viberatios,. What they found is how nature worked. All comes from a seed or egg type. They used an egg, it has all you need, and over a time period they perfected the matter. It took a 16 month process. It was done outside by what is found there. Because they believed the matter was perfect, and done by the sun basically, God was to them proven. From that process Osirs came about and is a copy of the process. later, Christianity became Osiris and a copy of that process. All religions of the past is a copy of that process, and is why they are all basically the same. There are 8 steps to the process. they became our religious holidays and such. because it was a work of the sun, moon and stars, astrology and what it has become is all from that process. How the process is worked is defined by the word definitions tied to the constellations, or, astrology as we know it is from that process. That is why so much about the stars, the 12, etc. it is all there. Life, death, resurrection, all is from this process. All you know about religion is from this process. Jesus is tied to this process as is John the Baptist. What i am saying is, yes Jesus is tied to the same myth as osiris, all of it even more than is known. But, jesus in the gnostics talked about this secret knowledge, and so was killed for it. That is how it always was until recent times. So was jesus a real person? I think that he was, and that he was what we call an alchemists. everything they did he did. what he said they said in a different way. all used red wine. many alchemists cured the sick, the list just goes on and on. All is from this process whereby they believed they found how God could Perfect matter. As our matter is the same, the religion was tied to the man, thus, all we have tied to man is from this process. Genesis is the way of the process when understood. Learn the alchemists. They all said what I am saying to you now, just in a hidden fashion. when you learn the process, you learn how to understand them. Remember Jesus and his fate, it was the same for anyone that spoke of it and so, secret always. Ill answer any question you might have. its late and Im tiered now. Anything Supernatural? it is all nature and how nature works over time. The point I would make is this, if the matter did nothing they wouldn't have made it into a religion. Consider that. as for the bible, knowing alchemyas we call it, I know the Bible has been washed as was the past and so i don't spend much time there. Now Archarys books, and G. Massey, I live in them, Sir W. Budge, it is all there. It is like Genesis. They didn't make things up, they used what is here, Genesis is about what is here.

Al



Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:10 am
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Post Re: Christ In Egypt: Introductory Remarks
Let's see, you are into alchemy and think the real Jesus was an alchemist.

Elton John is a homosexual and thinks that the real Jesus was a homosexual.

I knew a black preacher that was certain that the real Jesus was black.

Robert Tulip considers himself an astrotheology teacher and first began with the assertion that the real Jesus was a great astrotheology teacher.

This is a very common thing in society whereby every Tom, Dick, and Harry sees the real Jesus as a reflection of themselves. And essentially that's what such a solar personification avatar is meant to do. It's supposed to appeal to everyone in that vague sense which can be interpreted in a variety of ways to make people congregate around it.


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A) The Origins of Religious Worship

B) The Christmas Nativity

C) The Mythicist Position

D) YEC theory put to rest!


Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:18 am
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