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Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God 
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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God
Vishnu wrote:
^Atum at dusk, no? That was the point, when the sun "gets old" at dusk, it is represented by the oldest of the gods. Though Amen was indeed conflated with Ra to also become a sun god. Prior to that, he was just a local "unknown" god at Thebes. His name in fact means "hidden" or "unseen".

Yes, the James Allen quote at the beginning of the chapter renders the sunset as "Atum." I always read over that because I've seen Atum - Amen linked as two renderings of the same God elsewhere and it's always stuck.


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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God
drdalet wrote:
That is not what I meant when I wrote "A god that is definitely the sun is ATEN". I meant that Aten is not depicted as a human not even an animal. It is a disk with rays of hands coming out of it, holding an Ankh, which is a symbol of life.
Hi Dr D.

Here is a picture of what you are talking about, from a blog by a Baptist Professor of Old Testament Studies. You can see the hands and the ankhs. It is interesting there are fourteen sun rays, perhaps symbolising the fourteen pieces into which Set chopped Osiris, and the fourteen days of the waxing or waning moon. Akhenaten, depicted here worshiping the sun with Nefertiti, introduced solar monotheism into Egypt in a revolutionary shift from the old polytheism. His son Tutankhamun restored the old faith, and discovery of his tomb in 1922 is one of the most important discoveries in archaeology. I recently went to a show about King Tut in Melbourne which was superbly illuminating about ancient Egyptian high culture.
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There are no adventure-like stories connected to Aten. It is what it is (doesn't this remind you of "I am that I am"?). There is no need for any interpretation. But what it shows is that the sun was important. But just like today, many people need personal, humanlike gods (religion) and priests need to control the people and they can not do that with something they have no control over, like the sun. To stop the sun in the sky must have been the ultimate proof of power over nature.
I doubt that the common folk of Egypt were aware of the explanations of what their gods represented. Not different from what christians think of Jesus today.
Thanks, this is astute and sound social analysis. The link between Aten as the sun and the God of Abraham makes sense. Aten was pre-gender. The control agenda is idolatrous, which is why contemporary fundamentalists seek social control through Bibliolatry. The point of the stopping of the sun in the sky must originally have referred to the solstices, not Joshua's absurd slaughter opportunity.
Quote:
What I find interesting though is that Ankhnaten's dynasty was the same period the Hebrews were in Egypt. Moses was an egyptian raised hebrew (perhaps) who was well aware of the concepts of Egyptian religion.
Hebrews were part of the Egyptian dynasty of pharoahs ever since Joseph was sold to Egypt by his brothers.
This assumes historicity of Exodus, which leading archaeologists such as Israel Finkelstein dispute.
Quote:
The Egyptian-Hebrew connection is clear and during the days of Jesus, Egypt was a Greek province.
The battle of Actium in 31 BC gave Rome control over the Hellenistic world, so in Jesus' time Egypt was already a Roman province, although Greeks remained culturally dominant, together with large numbers of Jews and Egyptians.
Quote:
The book we are discussing makes it clear that this connection can't be denied.
Yes, the connection between Egypt and Israel is historically clear. Please see further discussion of this theme, including how Serapis morphed into Christ, at the thread Christ in Egypt: The Alexandrian Roots of Christianity.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God
This is like the connection between Florida and Georgia. We're talking about side by side communities with Egypt and Israel. I enjoy the map Murdock placed in CiE just to give an overview of the region.


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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God
Robert Tulip wrote:
drdalet wrote:
What I find interesting though is that Ankhnaten's dynasty was the same period the Hebrews were in Egypt. Moses was an egyptian raised hebrew (perhaps) who was well aware of the concepts of Egyptian religion. Hebrews were part of the Egyptian dynasty of pharoahs ever since Joseph was sold to Egypt by his brothers.
This assumes historicity of Exodus, which leading archaeologists such as Israel Finkelstein dispute.

No, it doesn't. As always I refer to the STORY Exodus. For me the Bible is FICTION. But there are many fictional stories that are based on real events and even real people. That does not mean the events happened the way the Story tells it or that the actions of the people in the story actually took place. The aim of the biblical stories is not to tell history, so it becomes FICTION.
I know of numerous stories that are basically not true, but it is in our history-books. Why? Because of the intentions of the people who wrote it.
That is why I don't care what people like Finkelstein say, because these people take the STORY literal and then say it didn't happen. That does not mean that there is no basic truth behind it. For instance: were the Hebrew people EVER in Egypt? How do we know?
(Att.: don't react to these "questions", because I am aware of every theory that exists on that matter - but that is not my point)
If they were never there, the exodus can't have happened, or the country it refers to is the wrong place. But if they were in Egypt, are they still there? No! So when did they leave, how did they leave, why did they leave? In the STORY of Exodus there are hints. I could "translate" the exodus as follows: during a period of several decades (in hebrew the number 4, 40, 400 is an indefinite amount) the hebrew people left Egypt because of natural occurences as described in the "plagues". These are natural occurences, so "God did it". The STORY suggests there was a change of dynasty of pharaohs (which is possible) and they suppressed the hebrew people (this is also possible). They left Egypt, not by the controlled roads at the time, but by the sea of reeds, a swampy area, sometimes dry, sometimes under water (a natural phenomena, so "God did it"). They probably assembled somewhere before moving on in small groups. Etc. etc. I could explain every detail of the story in that way, and if I had time I would write it down as a fictional story.
Finkelstein and others never explain the story in other ways than literal. That's why I find it of no importance. Of course it didn't happen the way it is told!! Not even our "history" is true like that!

I am not a christian and never was.
So if I refer to the STORY I NEVER suggests it happened. I guess my English is too poor to make that clear. It is rather frustrating if I talk about a story and the only comment I get is: "but the story isn't true". I could deal with CiE in the same manner: Jesus never existed, Mary never existed, the stories are all made up and bogus, so why write a book about it at all?

Answer: CiE is not about Jesus being a real person or not. It is about the religious believe of people and where it comes from. So it is not important if Jesus was a real person or not. It is interesting to realise how a fictional story is invented and where it comes from.
It does not mean that WHERE it comes from is TRUE either. The STORIES of Isis, Horus and all the other gods and goddesses are just as insane if you take them literally. But all religious stories are myths, based on actual (natural) occurences, like ebb and flood, day and night, the sun moving in the heavens (yes, I know that is not what actually happens), the moon, the stars, wars among people, sadistic rulers, furocious animals, famine, exaggerated "adventures" of people, etc. etc.
People want answers for how this all takes place and why. We have no need for religion anymore, now that we have science.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God
Drdalet, There are a few issues in your comment that I would like to respond to. Please understand that people have to respond to what you actually write, and cannot second guess some hidden intention behind your words. So it is important to be precise, so if anything you say is unclear or incorrect it can be up for discussion. For you to say Finkelstein's analysis of exodus is "of no importance" is rather strange. For nearly three thousand years a fictional account has passed itself off as historical. For a scientist to look for the evidence and find there is none for the traditional story is hardly "of no importance". Rather, it allows us to analyse the texts against a real historical framework to try to understand the real motives for writing them.

Your comments on Joseph and Moses appear to take the old myth on face value, especially by speaking of the historical Akhenaten in the same breath as the fictional Moses and Joseph. That is what I was questioning. And I did not say "but the story isn't true", which you attributed to me as a direct quotation. I don't see what you find frustrating here. The Old Testament is powerful as a mythic source, and I would never suggest that its apparent falsity is grounds to say it is not important, as you appear to imply. I simply request that you not mix myth and fact giving the appearance of equal weight to both. After all, that is how myths get their momentum.

This leads to a further non sequitur in your comment "it is not important if Jesus was a real person or not. It is interesting to realise how a fictional story is invented and where it comes from." The problem here is that the only way we can 'realize how a fictional story is invented' is by regarding it as important if Jesus was real, contrary to your suggestion, and applying methodical scientific analysis to assess which parts of the Bible may be true and which are invented.

I hope you will take these comments as constructive, as I welcome your input here, I just find your logic a bit sloppy.



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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God
I think drdalet does have a point, though. If we simply accept that the Bible is a mishmash of legend, myth, and history we won't get upset about it not being true in the sense that we have come to value most. This applies to something like God's commands to slaughter all the Canaanites. If we think about this act being done, we'll be hating God, but if we then realize that no such thing ever happened, our anger is then against a fictional act and character. We can go on to think about what such a god says about the society that created it.

The importance of pointing out the evidence of the fictions of the Bible is to prevent the dangerous literalists from claiming justification for present-day policies from the words of the Bible. The Middle East is a trouble spot in part because of so many people insisting on the literalness of scripture.


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tat tvam asi
Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:39 am
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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God
Just imagine what the middle east would be like today if no such literalism existed in the first place.


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Post Re: Christ in Egypt: Horus, Sun of God
Tat tvam asi and I have discussed the below before. I thought it might be helpful to bring up here.

The general lists like the Osiris/Horus list quoted below exists because, for example, we had people in the 19th century like Gerald Massey (who was heavily peer reviewed by the top Egyptologists of his day) trying to explain these parallels to a mostly Christian audience who knew absolutely nothing about the Egyptian religion. Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs weren't translated until after the discovery of the Rosetta Stone. "until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone by Napoleon's troops in 1799 and the subsequent translation of such by Champollion in 1822, no one could read Egyptian hieroglyphs!"

They were trying to explain the pre-Christian parallels in such a way that even Christian authorities would understand. Justin Martyr did something similar around 150ce in his first apology:

"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you [PAGANS] believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter...."

The parallels do not have to be exact carbon copies and, in fact, it's absurd to expect them to be. These concepts have evolved over time with similarities and differences due to environment, culture and era. The point is that the CONCEPTS existed throughout the Egyptian religion and influenced many religions, including Christianity.

So, what we have today is the same thing that happened to those 19th century scholars connecting the parallels; people like Acharya S and many others getting abused and derogated for trying to explain the Egyptian myths in a format that even Christians could understand. It appears that Christians detest seeing any connections made.

Tat tvam asi explains:
Quote:
"PS It should be noted that Massey was trying to explain these parallels to Christian audiences and so he made reference to the parallels in Christianity such as the Virgin Birth motif and the motif of the 12 which were a part of the Egyptian religion long before Christianity was created. It was his way of trying to explain it in his day and age. The way that I broke it down previously may better explain the parallels in this day and age with less confusion involved. But nevertheless Massey didn't make these things up and neither has anyone else since. The documentation proves that. And it isn't at all speculative to see parallels between Horus and Jesus as Robert seemed to be suggesting earlier before I posted the documented sources for ZG, it's actually a matter of solid scholarship which is touched on in CiE."

Quote:
"... In reality, a number of the mythical motifs regarding Horus and other Egyptian deities startlingly resemble characteristics and events attributed to Jesus Christ, indicating that the gospel story is neither original nor historical. As may have been expected, many of these correspondences are not widely and neatly found in encyclopedia entries and textbooks, so they have often been dismissed without adequate study and with extreme prejudice. In my previous work, The Christ Conspiracy, I presented various aspects of the Horus myth out of the hundreds brought to light by Gerald Massey and others. Some of these comparisons are as follows:

• Horus was born on “December 25th” (winter solstice) in a manger.
• He was of royal descent, and his mother was the “virgin Isis-Mery.”
• Horus’s birth was announced by a star in the East and attended by three “wise men.”
• At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized.
• Horus was baptized by “Anup the Baptizer,” who was decapitated.
• The Egyptian god had 12 companions, helpers or disciples.
• Horus performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised Osiris from the dead.
• The god walked on water.
• Horus was “crucified” between two “thieves.”
• He (or Osiris) was buried for three days in a tomb and resurrected.
• Horus/Osiris was also the “Way, the Truth, the Life,” “Messiah,” the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
• Horus’s personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of the Father. He was called “Holy Child,” as well as “the Anointed One,” while Osiris was the KRST.
• Horus battled with the “evil one,” Set/Seth.
• Horus was to reign for one thousand years.

"... Again, one does not find the Horus myth as above outlined in an ancient Egyptian encyclopedia, such that the creators of the Jesus story merely scratched out the Egyptian names and inserted the Christian ones. Those who have been attempting to explain the creation of the Christ myth have been compelled to back-engineer the story in order to analyze its components and concepts. In other words, in explaining the various mythical motifs used in the gospel story, some have recounted the tale utilizing the original god or gods, in a gospel-like manner in order to express those components."

- Christ in Egypt, "Horus, Sun of God" Chapter, page 43-45

Quote:
"...Osiris is doubly resurrected as his son Horus, too, and he, too, is eventually raised from the dead by Isis. He is pictured as spanning the dome of heaven, his arms stretched out in a cruciform pattern. As such, he seems to represent the common Platonic astronomical symbol of the sun’s path crossing the earth’s ecliptic. Likewise, the Acts of John remembers that the real cross of Jesus is not some piece of wood, as fools think, but rather the celestial “Cross of Light.” Acharya S. ventures that “the creators of the Christ myth did not simply take an already formed story, scratch out the name Osiris or Horus, and replace it with Jesus” (p. 25). But I am pretty much ready to go the whole way and suggest that Jesus is simply Osiris going under a new name, Jesus,” Savior,” hitherto an epithet, but made into a name on Jewish soil. Are there allied mythemes (details, really) that look borrowed from the cults of Attis, Dionysus, etc.? Sure; remember we are talking about a heavily syncretistic context. Hadian remarked on how Jewish and Christian leaders in Egypt mixed their worship with that of Sarapis (=Osiris)."

- Christ in Egypt, Reviewed by Dr. Robert Price, a biblical scholar with two Ph.D's


Also see, The "Son" of God is the "Sun" of God



Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:28 pm
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