Chat transcript - Howard Bloom chat Jan. 2, 2003

Chris OConnor

This is the complete chat transcript from our 2.5 hr. chat with author and scientist Howard Bloom.

Feel free to posts comments and discuss right in this thread.

connected: ezChat version 0.49
Chris OConnor:: Hey Michael
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi chris
Chris OConnor:: Howdy
Chris OConnor:: So what is your estimate? How many do you think will show up?
Chris OConnor:: I am hoping for at least 15 total
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: dunno
quibbit joined
Chris OConnor:: It sure would be a bummer if Howard Bloom didn't come
Chris OConnor:: Hello Quibbit
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi quibbit
Chris OConnor:: Oh no....Quibbit is a spy and cannot talk to us
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe quibbit is Howard
quibbit:: Hello.
Chris OConnor:: Nah, Howard said he registered as "HowBloom"
Quibbit:: I'm Howard's assistant.
Chris OConnor:: Hello Quibbit
Quibbit:: My name is Stephen.
Chris OConnor:: And how did you hear about this chat Quibbit?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Stephen
Chris OConnor:: welcome Stephen
Quibbit:: Howard should be here in just a few minutes
Chris OConnor:: Ahh - is this Stephen is assistant?
Quibbit:: yeah..
Chris OConnor:: Yes, we talked on the phone. Good to "see" you. You are taller than I expected.
Quibbit:: Just wanted to be around at least the first few minutes to make sure everything is going okay.
Chris OConnor:: I don't blame you.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you're the guy who steps in if the group tries to lynch Howard?
Chris OConnor:: Does Howard type about average speed?
Chris OConnor:: Michael - that ruins our plan
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: oh yeah, I wasn't supposed to tell!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sorry, sorry
Chris OConnor:: You are forgiven
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks
Quibbit:: I think so, maybe a bit faster if he's really going.
Chris OConnor:: I'm good like that
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that means I'm in the "in group'
Chris OConnor:: Stephen - well, we have no real format. I think Howard has enough formal engagements. I hope this is enjoyable for him.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: oh no...William Shatner is going do another album
Quibbit:: More people likely to show up at the last few minutes?
xilog joined
Quibbit:: Yeah, it should be fun for him.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi xilog
xilog:: hi there
Chris OConnor:: Stephen - Yes, there should be many more people coming over the next 15 minutes
Chris OConnor:: Hey Xilog!
Chris OConnor::
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "A brutality that speaks to us through the animals in our brain" is a nice line
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Howard should make poetry out of some of his lines in Lucifer
Chris OConnor:: Yes, Howard is a metaphorical master
Chris OConnor:: That is his marketing genius shining through
Quibbit:: I think that he has something like that in the works. I think actually there's been some talk of a musical adaptation.
Chris OConnor:: Stephen - are you serious?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Superorganisticexpialidocious!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: could be a brutal remake of mary poppins
Chris OConnor:: LOL
Chris OConnor:: Ok, no more egg nog for you Michael
Quibbit:: Yeah.. Actually.. I'll see if I can give you the link to an mp3 someone did of a show he was in.
Quibbit:: I think he's getting on now.
Bugteach joined
Chris OConnor:: Thanks Stephen
Chris OConnor:: Hello Bugteach
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi bugteach
Bugteach:: hello room
Chris OConnor:: Let me guess - you are a biology teacher?
Chris OConnor:: Stephen - Howard doesn't sing does he?
Bugteach:: top of the evening to you all
Chris OConnor:: and to you too Bug
Chris OConnor:: Where are you from? ...and how did you hear about this chat?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sings "bloody bloody genes, playing bloody scenes.."
Chris OConnor:: Is that your own song Michael - it is lovely
Bugteach:: Howard informed me by way of chris
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just made it up
Chris OConnor:: I would love to hear about all of Howard’s experiences with the music industry too - but no time for that tonight
Chris OConnor:: Bug - Ahh - so you got my email I imagine
Bugteach:: yep
Chris OConnor:: Michael - you are quite skilled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wanna hear about where Michael Jackson fits into the superorganism
stevepainter joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Steve
Chris OConnor:: Steve!
Chris OConnor::
stevepainter:: hey
Chris OConnor:: Good to see ya
stevepainter:: I just said to my wife that Chris might be freaking if I don't sign in soon
Chris OConnor:: Bug - where are you at though?
Chris OConnor:: Steve - good point
Bugteach:: Gary Indiana
Chris OConnor:: Bug - Ahh well good to have you with us tonight.
stevepainter:: oh, that makes me think of The Music Man
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "The slightest slip from the true path, they feel, can send Satan's minions writing through every vein of their body."
Bugteach:: Michael Jackson’s hatching point
Bugteach:: thanks for the invite
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: writhing
howbloom joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Howard!
howbloom:: hi
Johnny Neuron joined
moose1567 joined
howbloom:: glad to see you
Chris OConnor:: Howard! Welcome
howbloom:: aha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
stevepainter:: hello all
moose1567:: hi room
Chris OConnor:: Hey Moose - and Johnny
howbloom:: chris, thanks for having me
Jeremy1952 joined
Chris OConnor:: Howard - it is our pleasure
howbloom:: Steve, moose, Johnny
Johnny Neuron:: Hello everyone...and especially Mr. Bloom!
Chris OConnor:: And there is Jeremy
moose1567:: Mr. bloom
howbloom:: it's good to meet you and Jeremy too
Chris OConnor:: So everyone hangs outside the front door waiting for the last minute I see
Jeremy1952:: Hi Howard, thank you !
howbloom:: any interesting things you've been discussing?
Bugteach:: hello Howard thanks for inviting me
Jeremy1952:: I was fiddling with the colors
howbloom:: any interesting questions?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm interested in your thoughts on the current rash of middle beastliness
howbloom:: my son Walter says this chat process is cool
howbloom:: oi vey
Jeremy1952:: Middle beastliness? What does that mean?
howbloom:: ok, what is your opinion of what's going on in the middle east
howbloom:: ?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the Middle Beast
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: i.e. Iraq
Chris OConnor:: yes, I am interested in the Middle east situation too and I was intrigued by your views on the "barbaric" nature of Islam
howbloom:: why did we pick Iraq as a target?
Chris OConnor:: My opinion is you hit the nail on the head
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was reminded of Lucifer when the outbreak of patriotism happened after 911
Chris OConnor:: hmmm
howbloom:: militant Islam has put as at the center of its sights
howbloom:: its gun sights
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: got the feeling America was becoming a militant organism
howbloom:: it's targeted us as an enemy
Chris OConnor:: I am personally concerned that our choosing Iraq has too much to do with Bush Jr. making up for his fathers mistakes
howbloom:: war is built into our biology
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about Bush's use of religious language..."evil" etc
Chris OConnor:: I totally see that
howbloom:: it's been with us for 3.5 billion years
stevepainter:: I don't know, I thought that Christianity among others was just as barbaric - economic prosperity and societal development have just progressed faster for us
howbloom:: so when we're attacked by others who follow our common instinctual heritage
howbloom:: our military instincts are aroused
Jeremy1952:: Perhaps. But biology teaches me that cooperation is ultimately more powerful than competition
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there any force in biology to compensate for our need to destroy? Or will the world just fall apart as WMD become available to small groups?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - that was the most impressive concept - war, hatred, violence - all part of our struggle to exist
moose1567:: we are targeted because of our openness of mind and freedom of religions
howbloom:: me too, re cooperation outweigh competition
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Islamic groups also project repressed sexuality onto us
howbloom:: the western world, western civilization
stevepainter:: definitely- cooperation helps groups survive
Jeremy1952:: You're familiar with Axelrod? His example of WWII soldiers refusing to hurt one another?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they feel guilty and attack us for representing their guilt
howbloom:: has purged itself of violence more successfully than any previous system of human social integration
Chris OConnor:: Moose - I would think that is a part of it
howbloom:: who feels guilty?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Muslims re: sexuality
Chris OConnor:: Not I
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: America is seen as sexually expressive
Jeremy1952:: Muslims feeling guilty about their own denied sexuality.
howbloom:: Muslims feel guilty about sexuality:
howbloom:: yes, the west is despised for its sexuality
howbloom:: for its depravity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the psychohistory guys talk a lot about that
Chris OConnor:: yes, I read "The Arab Mind" which covered that issue
howbloom:: for having no manners
Jeremy1952:: Of course we go a few rounds on that too (USAians, not necessarily all westerners)
howbloom:: no civilization
howbloom:: no propriety
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are you familiar with Lloyd's psychohistory list, Howard?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we really don't have a lot of manners
howbloom:: for harboring fornication and homosexuality
stevepainter:: we seem to have a split personality in regards to sexuality
Chris OConnor:: How so Steve?
howbloom:: I’m having trouble reading and writing at the same time
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see more research on parallels between Islamic and Christian fundamentalists
howbloom:: how do we simplify the dialog
Chris OConnor:: Howard - take your time
Bugteach:: are the present terrorist attacks a direct result of some infringement of the rats mimi
howbloom:: ok ,let's concentrate on Christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism, ok?
Chris OConnor:: We will all slow down
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok
Chris OConnor:: Ok, sounds like a plan Howard
Jeremy1952:: The usual technique in "chat" is to selectively ignore; I guess that's a ltitle harder for an invited guest, though!
howbloom:: these are two areas I’ve researched
howbloom:: and have spent 20 years fighting personally
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: all the Christians seem excited about Armageddon lately
stevepainter:: on the one hand we harbor a Victorian idea of what proper behavior is, but on the other we sell sex in every way
howbloom:: yes, the rapture
howbloom:: but here's the bottom line
howbloom:: Christian fundamentalism killed over 180 people in Oklahoma city
Jeremy1952:: True...
howbloom:: one doctor in my hometown, Buffalo, NY
howbloom:: and has planted several bombs
howbloom:: at abortion clinics
Chris OConnor:: yes, very true
howbloom:: it's dangerous and filled with hate
howbloom:: and its promoted absurd forms of censorship
Jeremy1952:: So; are the fundamentalists really a different "thing" than the rest of the religion?
Chris OConnor:: I believe all religions to be dangerous
howbloom:: getting rid of Harry Potter for being satanic
howbloom:: yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think so Jeremy, I think they're a distinct subculture
howbloom:: fundamentalists cohere
stevepainter:: religious fundamentalism of every stripe can be barbaric and dangerous
howbloom:: more strongly than others
howbloom:: they cohere around hatred
howbloom:: despising evil
Jeremy1952:: But doesn't any religion have the potential to become more dangerous? Or less?
howbloom:: and fighting ig
stevepainter:: it's fear really I think
howbloom:: fighting is a great bonding mechanism
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: any group of humans, Jeremy
Chris OConnor:: I was not aware of the hatred preaches in the Koran, but our Bible is not much better
howbloom:: do you remember
stevepainter:: the hatred that is
Johnny Neuron:: I definitely feel there is a rise in Christian fundamentalism here in the US; take the "Left Behind" series ie.
Chris OConnor:: How so Howard?
howbloom:: back in the days of Marxism vs. capitalism
howbloom:: how the revolutionaries always called for
Jeremy1952:: Hmmm... well, but groups of humans have the potential for being dealt with rationally. We have goals that
howbloom:: unity, fraternity, solidarity?
Jeremy1952:: can turn in to mutual goals. Religions, on the other hand, seem inherently self serving;
Chris OConnor:: Yes Howard
howbloom:: for camaraderie
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: probably has a lot to do with early experiences with authority too
NaddiaAoC joined
howbloom:: all these are bonding terms
howbloom:: people need desperately to bond
howbloom:: deeply with other human beings
Jeremy1952:: death dealing if that spreads the meme, peace dealing if that works today
moose1567:: Hi Nadia!!!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think it's also a need to purge one's own group of dissonance? guilt, shame etc?
howbloom:: fundamentalism uses a primary bonding mechanism
Jeremy1952:: Hey Nadia
Chris OConnor:: Howard - very true
howbloom:: yes to dissonance guilt and shame
NaddiaAoC:: Hi everyone!
howbloom:: they're part of the brew
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: fundamentalists seem to use a lot of military metaphors
howbloom:: i was just sitting with an Islamic friend
Jeremy1952:: Do you see it, Howard, as a technique being used by fundamentalists, or is it more
howbloom:: who wondered why his community in Brooklyn
howbloom:: is gung ho for holy war
howbloom:: for the idea
Jeremy1952:: an evolution, selection, within the meme of fundamentalism?
howbloom:: that death is more important to us
Chris OConnor:: Howard - individual humans are somewhat predictable, but it is when large groups act as one that we seem to experience horrific results
howbloom:: than life is to you
howbloom:: this is an idea that's taking off
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is death some kind of ecstatic union?
howbloom:: in an Islamic community of middle and upper middle
howbloom:: class professionals
howbloom:: doctors
howbloom:: dentists
howbloom:: psychiatrists
howbloom:: here in Brooklyn
Johnny Neuron:: Mr. Bloom, I am a former fundamentalist (former Jehovah's Witness) and I agree that most fundamentalists have more in common with other opposing fundamentalists than say, liberal religionists. It seems that social cohesion is more important than doctrine or dogma.
howbloom:: militant Islam has a horrible track record for delivery
howbloom:: it oppresses the poor horribly
stevepainter:: really? I didn't know the more educated were in on the idea of jihad also
howbloom:: by making them
howbloom:: far poorer
howbloom:: than ever before
Jeremy1952:: One of the things I learned from your book, though, is that delivering on promises isn't all that important
Jeremy1952:: to the success of a cult
howbloom:: look at Egypt
howbloom:: you're right
howbloom:: you hit the point
howbloom:: let me tell you
howbloom:: about Egypt, ok?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can always blame the enemy for your own failure to deliver
howbloom:: in 1951
Chris OConnor:: Good point Jeremy
howbloom:: Egypt had the same standard of living
howbloom:: as south Korea
howbloom:: today the average Korean
howbloom:: makes 20 times as much
howbloom:: per year
Chris OConnor:: wow
howbloom:: as the average Egyptian
howbloom:: and in the last
howbloom:: 20 years
howbloom:: the Egyptian standard of living
howbloom:: and that in all
howbloom:: the Arab countries
howbloom:: has deteriorated dramatically
howbloom:: its plunged
howbloom:: to the level
howbloom:: of sub Saharan Africa
howbloom:: which has
Chris OConnor:: As the result of what? - what is fueling their demise?
howbloom:: the lowest standard of living
Jeremy1952:: Well, is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Didn't you say that it is success that leads to warlike behavior?
howbloom:: anywhere in the world
stevepainter:: so are the despotic-style rulers the cause or the effect?
howbloom:: it's a result of military
howbloom:: fetish
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: weapon hunger
howbloom:: killing lust
howbloom:: hate frenzy
howbloom:: righteous anger stoking
moose1567:: the new world order?
Jeremy1952:: aha. Yea, that makes sense. Especially in light of what North Korea is doing
howbloom:: in other words
howbloom:: it's a result of drugging
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see the US having some problems, states are running out of money and we're diverting social funds into military ventures
howbloom:: the masses not with an opioid
howbloom:: but with a steroid
howbloom:: we can get into the states later
howbloom:: billions of dollars
stevepainter:: promise them power rather than a prosperous future?
Chris OConnor:: explain this steroid concept
howbloom:: have gone through Arab hands
howbloom:: billions of
howbloom:: oil dollars
howbloom:: billions of dollars in aid
howbloom:: and all that money
Timothy Schoonover joined
howbloom:: has gone for just one thing
moose1567:: hi Tim
howbloom:: pride
Chris OConnor:: Hey Tim - pull up a chair
howbloom:: for courage
howbloom:: for heroism
howbloom:: for victory
Timothy Schoonover:: argh...I’m late?
howbloom:: which means for weapons
howbloom:: for killing
howbloom:: putting all your money
NaddiaAoC:: hi Tim
Chris OConnor:: Howard - makes so much sense
howbloom:: into weaponry produces
howbloom:: poverty
howbloom:: and yet the Arabs
howbloom:: and their fellow Moslems
howbloom:: are more determined
howbloom:: than ever
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there a sexual tension between being "manly" and being "weak" involved here?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - but in Lucifer you stress the need to always be at the ready - against the "barbarians"
howbloom:: to spread their message globally
howbloom:: why?
howbloom:: because anger bonds
howbloom:: righteousness bonds
howbloom:: fury bonds
howbloom:: righteous indignation bonds
howbloom:: and humans live
howbloom:: on the oxygen of attention
howbloom:: they live in a sea of bonds or
Chris OConnor:: so true...anger and hatred bond - we need enemies to vent our hatred towards
howbloom:: isolation
howbloom:: isolation kills
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: does it also wash away the feeling of contamination?
howbloom:: bonding brings life
howbloom:: yes
howbloom:: the Arabs and non
howbloom:: Arab Moslems know exactly
stevepainter:: that would explain why isolationism never works
stevepainter:: in the long run
howbloom:: where all the sin
howbloom:: n the world is
howbloom:: it is here
howbloom:: in the west
howbloom:: particularly in the us
howbloom:: so the ultimate goal of
howbloom:: an Osama would be
howbloom:: something like this
howbloom:: to get his hands on Pakistan's nukes
Chris OConnor:: yes
howbloom:: on Pakistan's next generation stealth subs
howbloom:: on Pakistan’s mid
howbloom:: range ballistic missiles
howbloom:: which fit snugly
howbloom:: into the forward portion of the
howbloom:: submarines
howbloom:: missile delivering subs
howbloom:: to set one of Pakistan’s
moose1567:: scary
howbloom:: three subs on a path
howbloom:: to North America’s
howbloom:: Atlantic coast
Jeremy1952:: So , do we need a proper enemy to bond us together? Are we making a mistake not wallowing in hatred of Muslims &/or Arabs?
howbloom:: these subs have a 10,000
howbloom:: mile range
Chris OConnor:: A nuke attack on our nation could bring us to our knees, perhaps cast us into the dark ages instantly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is Bush risking instability in Pakistan by attacking Iraq?
howbloom:: to send
howbloom:: another sub
howbloom:: to the pacific coast
howbloom:: and to nuke America’s fifteen
stevepainter:: I don't think so Jeremy - we paint a country as an enemy and that seems to work pretty well
howbloom:: largest cities
howbloom:: it would be the pr coup of th
howbloom:: the 21st
howbloom:: century
howbloom:: it would do for
howbloom:: Osama what
Chris OConnor:: Howard - our country would fall
howbloom:: destroying the populations
howbloom:: of entire cities
howbloom:: did for Alexander
howbloom:: Alexander of Macedon
Chris OConnor:: Howard - 2 large buildings destroyed and our nation completely shut down for awhile
howbloom:: became Alexander the great
Jeremy1952:: I don't know. I'm not comfortable hating. It took me a year after 9-11 to STOP hating Muslims; and that was helped by
howbloom:: via body count
Johnny Neuron:: Isn't the Pakistani govt. an ally of the US though?
Jeremy1952:: a realization that consistency would require hating Christians, too.
howbloom:: don't hate Moslems, don't at all
howbloom:: hate Moslem militancy
howbloom:: just as you hate the
Chris OConnor:: It is not the Muslims, but the meme
howbloom:: militancy of the
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't hate Islam at all. I see it as a runaway system, and our system is in danger of the same thing
howbloom:: Christian fundamentalists
howbloom:: holed up in Idaho
howbloom:: our job
Jeremy1952:: Two separate things, though; I was asking if we SHOULD, not if it is rational.
Chris OConnor:: excellent point
howbloom:: is to save Moslems
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't even hate the virus of fundamentalism, it's just a psychological disease
howbloom:: just as they think
Jeremy1952:: If it works for them... bonding ...
howbloom:: their job is to save us
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy, it is a good question, how to bond ourselves
howbloom:: their are better ways of
howbloom:: bonding
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: good point
howbloom:: we need to know
Chris OConnor:: Michael - it is a disease that must be cured before it brings the entire superorganism down
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: opposites attract
howbloom:: what we stand for
howbloom:: what we offer
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris--exactly
stevepainter:: but Jeremy - we'd be turning on many of our own Americans who are Muslims
howbloom:: that's worth living and dying for
howbloom:: many Moslems believe
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Steve--as Osama turned on those Muslims
howbloom:: in the western system
stevepainter:: right
howbloom:: as passionately as I do
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we should emphasize that militant Muslims don’t' care about American Muslims at all
howbloom:: and many more can be cut loose
howbloom:: from the plague
howbloom:: of violence
howbloom:: of militancy
stevepainter:: all the more reason we shouldn't "hate Muslims"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about the effect of a war in Iraq on this
howbloom:: Osama's reasoning
howbloom:: about our Moslems
howbloom:: is this
howbloom:: we can afford
howbloom:: he says,
howbloom:: to lose 100 million Moslems
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've heard a lot of Americans in chat rooms say "first we'll take Iraq, then Saudi, then Iran"
howbloom:: in order to do
howbloom:: what Allah demands
howbloom:: to take over the world
howbloom:: the Moslem websites are now
howbloom:: talking openly about
howbloom:: "taking Europe back"
stevepainter:: Saudi Arabia is really the force behind most of this
howbloom:: to make Europe the
howbloom:: Moslem territory
howbloom:: it was always
howbloom:: meant to be
howbloom:: with no us
howbloom:: in the picture
howbloom:: no united
Chris OConnor:: and this is indeed the goal of the Islamic faith - world domination and stated in the Koran
howbloom:: states
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so does this boil down to a third world war?
howbloom:: Europe would have to bow
howbloom:: obsequiously
Bugteach:: sight a web sight please
Jeremy1952:: Well, that was the stated goal of world communism too...
howbloom:: on its knees
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you read Revelation, it's an almost identical vision, only with Jesus as the ruler
howbloom:: to Osama
howbloom:: the new what
howbloom:: does he call it
howbloom:: not the emir
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: caliph?
Timothy Schoonover:: It's inherent to the nature of memes, no?
howbloom:: but the new leader yes
howbloom:: caliph
howbloom:: of a global empire
howbloom:: global
howbloom:: the world is going global
howbloom:: Islam was built for
howbloom:: globalism
Chris OConnor:: wow
howbloom:: its the only religion
howbloom:: that offers a
howbloom:: global system of
howbloom:: laws and government
stevepainter:: but the fundamental version is just as repressive as any other
Chris OConnor:: our position as world leader teeters on the edge of collapse
Jeremy1952:: One ray of hope in my world view, is that parasites tend to get less dangerous over time
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: was just reading a paragraph from Lucifer: "If we ever save ourselves from the scourge of mass violence, it will be through the efforts of millions of minds, networked together..."
howbloom:: yes, this
howbloom:: is a turning point
howbloom:: in history
howbloom:: the things we discuss
howbloom:: today, now
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think that is what Global Brain is about
howbloom:: in this chat
howbloom:: may make a difference
Jeremy1952:: If you look at old time Christianity it looks about as bad as 21 century Islam
howbloom:: in the direction history takes tomorrow
stevepainter:: absolutely
Chris OConnor:: yes, there are seeds being planted right now
Johnny Neuron left
howbloom:: old time Christianity was
Jeremy1952:: but it seems to have "mellowed" over the centuries
howbloom:: ghastly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do people end up acting like the gods they follow?
howbloom:: BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT
howbloom:: ANYMORE
howbloom:: we've evolved beyond it
howbloom:: to new forms of competition
stevepainter:: for the most part
howbloom:: creative competition
Jeremy1952:: Just like the diseases we live with; pneumonia has been around a long time, so we have come to terms with it. A truce, more or less.
howbloom:: cooperation
howbloom:: that enriches
howbloom:: not impoverishes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: one girl trained as a suicide bomber decided not to go through with it...she felt the jihadists were playing with the blood of the martyrs
Jeremy1952:: Malaria is relatively young and quite destructive
howbloom:: let me tell you a story
stevepainter:: many seem to want to bring back "old time Christianity"
Johnny Neuron joined
howbloom:: about cotton
howbloom:: ok?
Chris OConnor:: yes, please do
Bugteach:: k
howbloom:: once upon a time
howbloom:: 200 years ago or so
Chris OConnor:: true Steve
howbloom:: cotton was
howbloom:: something only the rich could
howbloom:: afford
howbloom:: it was comfortable
howbloom:: as all get out
howbloom:: it was easily laundered
howbloom:: which means
Timothy Schoonover:: yeah it is!
howbloom:: no more lice or bugs
howbloom:: but it came from India
howbloom:: via the Indian ocean
howbloom:: down to Yemen
Bugteach:: excuse me :0
howbloom:: and
howbloom:: Oman
howbloom:: ok bug,
howbloom:: what is it?
howbloom:: should I
howbloom:: return to the tale?
howbloom:: normal folks
Jeremy1952:: <-- listening to tale
howbloom:: wore wool clothing
Bugteach:: no joking on my name I am very interested continue please
howbloom:: that couldn't be laundered easily
Chris OConnor:: Please do Howard
howbloom:: smelled
howbloom:: itched
howbloom:: irritated the skin
howbloom:: and was a great home
howbloom:: for bugs of all kinds
howbloom:: then we had several innovations
howbloom:: remember back
howbloom:: in the days of Henry the 8th
howbloom:: when Henry got
Chris OConnor:: I don't personally
howbloom:: a wild idea
howbloom:: and did something the Turks had
howbloom:: already done
howbloom:: but multiplied it exponentially?
howbloom:: he put
howbloom:: cannons on sailing ships
howbloom:: tons and tons of them
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: and England went from a lesser power
howbloom:: in Europe
howbloom:: to a world force
howbloom:: over the next 200 years
stevepainter:: military innovation
howbloom:: thanks to its navy
howbloom:: right?
Chris OConnor:: Yes
howbloom:: but England needed wood to make its ships
Jeremy1952:: with you so far
howbloom:: and the wood in England
howbloom:: had been pretty much used up
howbloom:: to keep homes warm
stevepainter:: we need oil for our war toys?
howbloom:: the country was running out of
howbloom:: the stuff
howbloom:: now think back to those lazy
howbloom:: sons of bitches
howbloom:: the aristocracy
howbloom:: what do they talk about incessantly
howbloom:: in pj wodehouse novels?
howbloom:: breeding
howbloom:: breeding things
howbloom:: how to improve a
howbloom:: breed of
howbloom:: bulls
howbloom:: a breed of pigs
howbloom:: a breed in the family
howbloom:: the breeding obsession
howbloom:: of the English aristocrats
howbloom:: gave us Darwin’s theory
howbloom:: of natural selection
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sex?
howbloom:: and it gave England
howbloom:: something more
howbloom:: not sex alone
howbloom:: we're talking early genetic engineering
howbloom:: the British
howbloom:: learned the value
howbloom:: of mono cropping
howbloom:: of concentrating on just one crop
howbloom:: per estate
howbloom:: finding out which
howbloom:: crop worked best
howbloom:: on the sort of land you had
howbloom:: and pouring your
howbloom:: heart
howbloom:: your soul
howbloom:: your energy
howbloom:: into genetically
howbloom:: engineering the stuff
howbloom:: via breeding
howbloom:: England needed
howbloom:: wood to build more ships
howbloom:: so they mono cropped trees
howbloom:: they build a new
howbloom:: agricultural innovation
howbloom:: called
howbloom:: are you ready?
Chris OConnor:: yes
howbloom:: the plantation
howbloom:: the single crop super producer
howbloom:: par excellence
howbloom:: they raised oak for
howbloom:: masts
howbloom:: they raised, I believe
Jeremy1952:: Ah! so the plantation was invented to grow trees for warships. Fascinating.
howbloom:: fast growing pines for
howbloom:: the less important things
howbloom:: ok
howbloom:: so the British now had a
howbloom:: fleet
howbloom:: let
howbloom:: 's go back
howbloom:: to an earlier innovation
howbloom:: allow me to take you to
howbloom:: 200 bc
howbloom:: ok?
howbloom:: wait,
stevepainter:: why not
howbloom:: sorry
howbloom:: that’s 200 ad
howbloom:: now the Romans had been importing
Bugteach:: k
howbloom:: Chinese and Indian
Jeremy1952:: <- takes time travel pill and plunges ahead
howbloom:: goods for a very long time
howbloom:: in fact they ran
howbloom:: a heavy balance of payments
Chris OConnor:: :0
howbloom:: deficit with
howbloom:: china
howbloom:: because their noblewomen outdid
howbloom:: each other to wear the best
howbloom:: silk gowns
howbloom:: silk was shipped
howbloom:: overland
howbloom:: via the old silk road
howbloom:: the trip took
howbloom:: i believe
howbloom:: 3 years or so
howbloom:: and was dangerous
howbloom:: as hell
howbloom:: so silk cost a fortune
howbloom:: then a clever arab
howbloom:: 400 years before Mohammed's
howbloom:: birth
howbloom:: did a very evolutionary thing
howbloom:: he figured out
howbloom:: how to make catastrophe
howbloom:: into something positive
howbloom:: opportunity
howbloom:: the catastrophe
howbloom:: was the monsoon
howbloom:: whose impact you know
howbloom:: flooding and destruction, right?
howbloom:: but he saw more than carnage
howbloom:: he notice a pattern
howbloom:: in the way the monsoons go
howbloom:: for one part of the year
Chris OConnor:: yes
howbloom:: the blow northeast
howbloom:: and in the other part of the year
Chris OConnor:: Travel
Chris OConnor:: He used the winds
howbloom:: they blow southwest
howbloom:: meanwhile, the Arabs
Chris OConnor:: and currents
howbloom:: had invented
howbloom:: something called
howbloom:: the lateen sail
Chris OConnor:: yep
howbloom:: a triangular sail
howbloom:: you could use t
howbloom:: to
Chris OConnor:: both ways
howbloom:: outwit the wind
howbloom:: and tack
howbloom:: you've got it chris
Chris OConnor:: very impressive invention
howbloom:: using ships
howbloom:: equipped
howbloom:: with this sail
Chris OConnor:: incredible step forward - no longer were we slaves to nature
howbloom:: he realized you could sail to India
howbloom:: via a sea borne
howbloom:: shortcut
howbloom:: then wait for the winds
howbloom:: to change
howbloom:: and sail back to
howbloom:: Oman
howbloom:: or Qatar
howbloom:: once again
howbloom:: meanwhile
howbloom:: other Arab inventors
howbloom:: had come up with a way
howbloom:: to create a virtual
howbloom:: sea lane
howbloom:: across the Arab peninsula
howbloom:: to the Mediterranean sea
howbloom:: the didn't dig a canal
howbloom:: they domesticated
howbloom:: camels
howbloom:: and organized them
howbloom:: in a cargo carrying caravan
howbloom:: the high price the Romans
howbloom:: had paid
xilog left
AvatarofPower joined
howbloom:: for goods from the east
howbloom:: went down dramatically
howbloom:: that meant the price of cotton and of silk
howbloom:: and ceramics--
howbloom:: teapots
howbloom:: tea cups
howbloom:: saucers
howbloom:: and, yes
Chris OConnor:: welcome Kevin
howbloom:: tea
howbloom:: but still only the super rich could
howbloom:: actually afford these
howbloom:: these ultra luxuries.
howbloom:: now for the British ships
stevepainter:: (a cup of tea sounds good)
howbloom:: we'll skip the
howbloom:: Portuguese
howbloom:: who found the sea route
howbloom:: around the tip
howbloom:: of Africa
howbloom:: and cut the price of eastern goods in half
howbloom:: again
howbloom:: the brits acquired
howbloom:: India
howbloom:: as the Jewel in the crown of empire
howbloom:: right?
Chris OConnor:: True
howbloom:: the French built the Suez Canal
howbloom:: all this brought the price of cotton clothing down
howbloom:: considerably
howbloom:: then the brits
howbloom:: used their invention
howbloom:: the plantation
howbloom:: to raise cotton
howbloom:: in some of the new places they'd conquered
howbloom:: the islands of the Caribbean
howbloom:: and the American south
howbloom:: we'll skip the very sticky
howbloom:: and wretched issue of slave
howbloom:: trading, which was
howbloom:: invented by the Arabs
howbloom:: using those old
howbloom:: monsoon winds
howbloom:: to establish slave trading
howbloom:: entrepots in east Africa
howbloom:: so now we had
howbloom:: mass production of raw cotton
howbloom:: the price of cotton goods went down again
howbloom:: now the upper middle class
stevepainter:: slave trading was invented by the Arabs? - Please get back to that later
howbloom:: could afford the stuff
moose1567:: please
howbloom:: like Jacques Louis David's wife's sister
howbloom:: whose father had made his money
Johnny Neuron left
howbloom:: like Osama's dad had
howbloom:: in construction
howbloom:: building the Louvre
howbloom:: in 1800
howbloom:: the power loom was invented
howbloom:: it was England's top
howbloom:: secret technology
howbloom:: now cotton goods were produced
howbloom:: in such profusion
howbloom:: that the price was low enough for the
howbloom:: ordinary man and woman
howbloom:: and a new cry went up
howbloom:: a nation's civilization
howbloom:: is measured by the amount of soap it uses
howbloom:: the death rate went down
howbloom:: why?
howbloom:: because you could buy
howbloom:: enough cotton clothing
howbloom:: to actually change it
howbloom:: frequently
howbloom:: and unlike wool
howbloom:: you could wash it
howbloom:: but here's the real point of the story
howbloom:: today
howbloom:: when folks like my old client
howbloom:: Stewart Copeland
howbloom:: or my anthropologist
howbloom:: friends
howbloom:: go to Africa
howbloom:: in search of the most primitive tribes
howbloom:: with the purest indigenous
Chris OConnor:: And if anyone has a question for Howard - feel free to throw it out there when he finishes
howbloom:: cultures on this earth
howbloom:: what do they find?
Jeremy1952:: Cotton?
howbloom:: what do their photos show?
howbloom:: yes
howbloom:: people living in squalor and poverty
howbloom:: people making almost no cash
howbloom:: living at all
howbloom:: are wearing cotton t shirts
howbloom:: cotton shorts
howbloom:: and cotton hats
howbloom:: the western system
howbloom:: has elevated the poor and the oppressed
Timothy Schoonover joined
howbloom:: the goal of every religion
howbloom:: we've achieved it
howbloom:: now we have to believe it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: don't forget Nike logos
howbloom:: to defend it
howbloom:: the system of competition via creativity
howbloom:: rather than competition
howbloom:: via the gun
howbloom:: competition via
howbloom:: fundamentalist militancy
Jeremy1952:: So, not to go off on a total tangent, but may I ask a question about the "Lucifer Principle" itself?
howbloom:: buying weapons has impoverished the Arab nations
howbloom:: ummm, should
stevepainter:: go for it Jeremy
howbloom:: we first answer the
howbloom:: question about
howbloom:: Arabs inventing African enslavement?
Chris OConnor:: Sure
stevepainter:: no - I asked that - let Jeremy go
Chris OConnor:: We just don’t want to let you slip away
Bugteach:: yep
howbloom:: the Arabs and their wonderful ships were capable
howbloom:: of jihad in Africa
howbloom:: they traveled up and down the eastern coast
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm interested in the process of projection...people projecting their own "evil" onto others and becoming immune to communication
howbloom:: establishing cities like Mobassa
Jeremy1952:: LOL Well, it struck me that the "Lucifer Principle" is the second half of something... the breaking down side
howbloom:: and languages based on Arabic
howbloom:: like Swahili
Jeremy1952:: of construction; but there has to be a "building up" side to chip away at
howbloom:: you're right
howbloom:: the Lucifer principle
Chris OConnor:: Good point Jeremy
Jeremy1952:: I'm wondering if the "other side" has a name, an identity
howbloom:: deliberately focused on the negative side of creativity
howbloom:: no
Chris OConnor:: How could we summarize the Lucifer Principle
howbloom:: alas
howbloom:: science is blind to the other side
howbloom:: which is something I'm working on
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: I'm working on helping science
howbloom:: see the inherent
Jeremy1952:: Ah.
howbloom:: creativity in this cosmos
howbloom:: creativity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there an email forum for Lucifer principle or related?
howbloom:: and to find a way to explain it
howbloom:: there's a global brain chat group
howbloom:: but none that I know of on
howbloom:: the Lucifer principle
howbloom:: creativity is at
Chris OConnor:: I will give you all the info for the Global Brain chat group
Chris OConnor:: I am a member
howbloom:: the heart of what we have to defend
howbloom:: at this time in history
howbloom:: why Iraq?
howbloom:: that's what I wonder
Chris OConnor:: Yes, great question
howbloom:: here's what my Islamic friend
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so it's really a war between cultural creative and fundamentalists?
howbloom:: said the week after 9/11
Jeremy1952:: So you truly feel that nature has a direction, a goal; that isn't just metaphor?
howbloom:: yes, it's a war between the creative and the destructive force of
howbloom:: human social evolution
howbloom:: yes, I feel that nature takes quantum
howbloom:: leaps upward
howbloom:: in creativity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it seems like we put most of our creativity into the machinery of selling things, rather than spreading positive ideas about culture
howbloom:: on a fairly regular basis
howbloom:: with us or without us
howbloom:: but if we want to survive
stevepainter:: by nature do you mean "human nature"?
howbloom:: it will have to be with us
howbloom:: no
howbloom:: I’m talking about a big bang
howbloom:: emerging from a singularity
howbloom:: I’m talking about a singularity
howbloom:: emerging from a nothingness
howbloom:: I'm talking about a
Chris OConnor:: yes, what is your take on that?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Muslims look at our culture and they see our fragmentation and our chaotic grouping...should we set a new example by bonding without violence?
howbloom:: throbbing soup of high speed particles
howbloom:: a plasma at
Bugteach:: what about mother earths alter ego?
howbloom:: the beginning of the universe
Chris OConnor:: A singularity coming from nothing makes no sense
howbloom:: when no plasma had ever existed before
howbloom:: I'm talking about the pressure waves
Jeremy1952:: The universe is not obligated to make sense to us
howbloom:: the first music
stevepainter:: MG - I don't think most non-Americans see how we are a group (even though we seem to disagree a lot)
moose1567:: [_]D
howbloom:: that rang that plasma like a gong
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - true, but damn I want it to
AvatarofPower:: but isn't 'creativity' a human invention? Creativity is just the human definition for a consciousness discovering utility... how does creativity exist as a function of the universe?
howbloom:: and I'm talking about 100,000 years later
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Steve--as an American I see a lot of aimlessness
howbloom:: when an extraordinary
howbloom:: creative leap occurred
howbloom:: protons discovered
Chris OConnor:: Avatar - excellent wording - I have to agree
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a long term war would give us purpose but would it really bond us or would it make the culture wars toxic?
howbloom:: that they were attracted to particles
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think human creativity is similar in many ways to natural processes...evolution being one
stevepainter:: but when challenged we form a fairly cohesive group
howbloom:: only one 1,850th their size
howbloom:: and atoms emerged
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: artists don't create from a plan, they recombine and sift like nature does
Jeremy1952:: But what is driving it? Is it blind evolution, "Santa Fe" principles of self-organization? Or some actual directional, what?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you seem to speak of natures creative forces almost as if there is some sort of sentience or "life" to it
howbloom:: this is the big question
howbloom:: i do not believe there
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think any system would tend toward greater complexity, at least under the right conditions
howbloom:: is sentience to it
howbloom:: but it has direction
Chris OConnor:: Howard - pheeww
howbloom:: it is an impulsive
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Ok, I am with you
howbloom:: and propulsive force
stevepainter:: I don't believe it has a direction
howbloom:: that produces grandeur
Bugteach:: the alter ego right?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: trajectory might be a better word
howbloom:: it produced atoms from a shou
Jeremy1952:: Propulsive force... what does that mean?
Chris OConnor:: Bug - explain?
howbloom:: a huge jump upward
howbloom:: I know what he means.
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: look
Chris OConnor:: Howard - so what would fuel this - as Jeremy asked
howbloom:: this cosmos began with one of the biggest energy rushes you can imagine
Chris OConnor:: True
howbloom:: it's been taking that energy
howbloom:: and making things ever since
Jeremy1952:: (I can't imagine it)
howbloom:: think about it
howbloom:: there was a time when
Chris OConnor:: I am so bewildered by the concept of a singularity
Bugteach:: how said in his book the Satan is mother earths alter ego and is motivating the world now
howbloom:: there were no things at all
Jeremy1952:: So what is "it" that "makes"?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: recombination produces complexity by its nature doesn't it?
howbloom:: no matter
howbloom:: no atoms
AvatarofPower:: right, Howard, but why is it necessary to define it as creativity?
howbloom:: none of the things we take for granted
Chris OConnor:: Bug - ahhhh
stevepainter:: it had to go somewhere - given infinite time to work with
howbloom:: all popped into being
Chris OConnor:: Howard - how the hell could that happen?
howbloom:: do you have a better word for it than
howbloom:: creativity?
Chris OConnor:: Steve - true, but did it all begin?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there could have been something before the singularity, just nothing we can get a handle on
howbloom:: I could use it
Jeremy1952:: Aside from gravity and fundamental forces of nature, which is what mainstream science attributes it to?
howbloom:: there was pretty obviously a nothing
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I so agree
howbloom:: with simple rules of its own
AvatarofPower:: as time moves forward, energy is moved around... by probability, more new things will happen and more new arrangements will be found...
howbloom:: no
howbloom:: not probability
howbloom:: forget probability
howbloom:: this is not a totally determined universe
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think we don't have a clue when it all comes down to it - there could be multiple universes, and infinite cycle of expansions and collapses...
AvatarofPower:: you're telling me it is a sentient creativity rather than a random probability
howbloom:: but it is a very constrained universe
stevepainter:: no one knows Chris - try Guth again for a Big Bang friendly idea
howbloom:: bear with me and let me tell you a tiny tale of universal
howbloom:: creativity, cosmic
howbloom:: creativity
howbloom:: and its limitations
howbloom:: its rigid boundaries
AvatarofPower:: (yes, Guths inflationary universe is excellent, Steve)
Bugteach:: go for it
howbloom:: unless I’ve worn you out with stories
Timothy Schoonover:: listening
howbloom:: ok first there is a nothingness
AvatarofPower:: no, please go ahead
Chris OConnor:: Yes, this is interesting
howbloom:: you and I are sitting around at an outdoor
howbloom:: cafe table
howbloom:: before the beginning of the universe
howbloom:: you are a dreamer
howbloom:: I'm a skeptic
howbloom:: you tell me, Howard
howbloom:: just watch out
howbloom:: something's about to happen that you've never seen before
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: <---relieved there is coffee before the beginning of the universe
howbloom:: there's going to be this infinitesimal twist
howbloom:: called a singularity
howbloom:: and from it will burst forth
howbloom:: a new thing that you've never seen
Jeremy1952:: Sounds like we're drifting into Italo Calvino's territory
stevepainter:: what else do you think fueled it, MG?
howbloom:: four forces and an energy
stevepainter::
howbloom:: and I would say to you
MichaelangeloGlossolalia::
Chris OConnor::

Michael
howbloom:: you're nuts
howbloom:: you’re absolutely crazy
howbloom:: I've been here as long as this nothingness
howbloom:: has existed
howbloom:: and no self- constructing
howbloom:: self unfolding infinitesimal
howbloom:: blip with almost infinite eagerness and energy
howbloom:: has ever existed before and
Jeremy1952:: But... but... absolute nothing violates the heisenberg uncertainty principle.
howbloom:: it is so improbable and impossible that it never will
howbloom:: then comes the singularity and proves me to be a fool
Jeremy1952:: Making something inevitable, required
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "nothing" is relatively defined by "things"
howbloom:: 100,000 years later
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - maybe the principle doesn't fit
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "no thing we are familiar with"
howbloom:: we are still sitting at our cafe table
Chris OConnor:: drinking coffee
Jeremy1952:: But true nothing would have an exact momentum - zero - and an a exact location - no where
stevepainter:: vacuum violates the uncertainty principle?
howbloom:: you've predicted all manner of utterly
howbloom:: wacko things
howbloom:: quarks
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: <--wondering how star buck’s got a monopoly on pre-existential cafes
howbloom:: trios of quarks
Jeremy1952:: Absolutely, Steve. In the real world there is quantum foam.
howbloom:: protons stuck together with gluons
Chris OConnor:: ewww
howbloom:: leptons
howbloom:: the whole deal
Chris OConnor:: ok
stevepainter:: you always have quantum fluctuations in the vacuum
howbloom:: and I've been stunned and
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: kleptons - the ones that keep stealing the other particles
howbloom:: amazed that you're lunacy has proved true
Chris OConnor:: LOL
howbloom:: kleptons, I love it ")
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: feel free to steal my memes
Bugteach:: hehe
howbloom:: ok, pay attention because the universe
howbloom:: is about to pull a rabbit out of a hat again
Chris OConnor:: Yes, Michael is our entertainment at BookTalk - where is Kenny though? I'm not sure how we can define him LOL
howbloom:: I've been watching this plasma bonging
Chris OConnor:: I'm listening
Chris OConnor:: Bonging?
howbloom:: for 100,000 years
moose1567:: lol
howbloom:: yes, pressure waves
stevepainter:: that explains a lot
Jeremy1952:: (i hope its not a cud chewing rabbit, though, like the one a certain desert religion came up with)
howbloom:: physicists call it music
Chris OConnor:: Ok
howbloom:: and you say
howbloom:: Howard
howbloom:: I know you're not going to believe this
howbloom:: but I predict that in a couple of whatever
howbloom:: we substitute for days
howbloom:: this banging
howbloom:: wangling
howbloom:: jostling
howbloom:: ricocheting
Chris OConnor:: tussling
howbloom:: super highs speed broth
howbloom:: of particles, constantly
AvatarofPower:: rustling, bustling, tussling
howbloom:: wangling into each other
howbloom:: and ricocheting
howbloom:: like bullets
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zinging
howbloom:: bashing each other at high
NaddiaAoC:: Hehe. This sounds like one of your poems, Kevin.
howbloom:: speed
howbloom:: will slow down
howbloom:: and something new will appear
moose1567:: molecular orgy
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: schlepping
howbloom:: something with properties beyond anything we've seen
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: schleptons?
howbloom:: protons are going to discover
howbloom:: an attraction
howbloom:: that makes them glue themselves to electrons
howbloom:: these itty bitty things
howbloom:: things
howbloom:: that, as I said
howbloom:: are one 1,850th their size
Chris OConnor:: Moose
AvatarofPower:: I don't like this personified 'discover'
howbloom:: and I'd say you are nuts
howbloom:: you're crazy
howbloom:: I've watched this universe for 100,000 years now
howbloom:: particles have always
stevepainter:: what's a year?
howbloom:: bounced off each other
howbloom:: and they always will
howbloom:: the idea of this dance
howbloom:: that your predicting
howbloom:: this particle mating and romance
howbloom:: is just plain crazy
howbloom:: and the next day
Chris OConnor:: Steve - I see your point
howbloom:: the first electron and proton
howbloom:: slow down enough to meet
howbloom:: and sure enough
howbloom:: they mate
Timothy Schoonover:: I'll be damned.
howbloom:: and form an atom
howbloom:: with new properties
howbloom:: radical new things
Jeremy1952:: I think , when you try to visualize and use intuition at the cosmic and /or quantum scale, it is useful to recall
howbloom:: like the following
howbloom:: bear with me
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: there has never been matter in this universe before
Jeremy1952:: that our brains evolved for no such purpose; envisioning quantum interactions and atomic forces
howbloom:: you tell me it's going to come fairly
howbloom:: quickly
stevepainter:: good point Jeremy
Jeremy1952:: is a totally alien exercise to our intuition. SO naturally it seems strange to us
howbloom:: and you try to explain matter to me
howbloom:: and once again I think you're loony
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "something that matters"
howbloom:: especially when you tell me
howbloom:: that it's going to be yanked
howbloom:: together by a
howbloom:: force I've never seen
howbloom:: some nutcase frenzy that you call
howbloom:: gravity
howbloom:: now I really know you've lost it
Chris OConnor:: Howard - do I sense a 3rd book on the horizon?
howbloom:: but what happens
howbloom:: yes, the big bang tango
howbloom:: but first i have to write The Hidden
Chris OConnor:: That will be the name of the book?
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: Heartbeat of America--Reinventing Capitalism
howbloom:: Soul and
Timothy Schoonover:: hmm
howbloom:: the Wealth of nations
howbloom:: and I have to do it
howbloom:: for a reason someone
Chris OConnor:: I think someone already wrote "The Wealth of nations"
howbloom:: mentioned several minutes ago
Timothy Schoonover:: That's what I'd like to hear about!!
Chris OConnor:: What reason?
howbloom:: because we need to know what we're fighting for
Timothy Schoonover:: Sam Adams =)
Chris OConnor:: Tim LOL
Timothy Schoonover:: or something
Timothy Schoonover:: doh
howbloom:: the only system I know of that's ever elevated the
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I totally agree
howbloom:: poor
howbloom:: and given them t shirts of cotton
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is oil conservation really a "personal virtue"?
howbloom:: with Nike logos
howbloom:: it
howbloom:: s not matter
Timothy Schoonover:: Adam Smith. even
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can we have Ben jerry’s logos instead?
howbloom:: that we're missing
howbloom:: its meaning
howbloom:: its a goal
moose1567:: Islam right?
Chris OConnor:: Tim - ROFL I didn't even catch that
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Meaning Inc.
howbloom:: its idealism
howbloom:: to have idealism, you need to see
howbloom:: clearly the
stevepainter:: only if you get Deep Dark Chocolate ice cream too, MG
Jeremy1952:: Our culture has also given the world Viagra, which, through the law of unintended consequences, is saving
howbloom:: benefits of your system
howbloom:: we don't
howbloom:: we call it a consumerist
Jeremy1952:: endangered tigers in Asia
howbloom:: culture
howbloom:: we demean it
howbloom:: this is the only system that ha
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - those tigers should not be taking Viagra
howbloom:: has ever produced

Edited by: Chris OConnor at: 10/30/05 3:55 pm

Chris OConnor

continued...

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we participate without thinking and we accumulate guilt
howbloom:: the surplus and
howbloom:: the communications devices
howbloom:: that make movements
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people need to feel they are contributing to something when they buy and sell, not just robotically killing time
howbloom:: to save animals a possibility
Chris OConnor:: So you do not bash consumerism
howbloom:: yes, Michelangelo
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like the Smart Mob idea
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: got that book
howbloom:: you put it perfectly
howbloom:: it's not just a smart mob
howbloom:: it's a mob with
howbloom:: a hidden heart
Chris OConnor:: this is fascinating stuff
howbloom:: with a hidden utopia
howbloom:: with hidden moral imperatives
howbloom:: there is creative capitalism
Timothy Schoonover:: How can capitalism work without unemployment, and how can such inherent oppression be empowering?
Jeremy1952:: I just don't see how tying the superiority of pluralistic democracy (which I support unequivocally) with
howbloom:: and criminal capitalism
howbloom:: we use a Marxist vocabulary
howbloom:: built on a base
Chris OConnor:: Tim - I read your post on the boards about that
howbloom:: laid by Adam smith
Jeremy1952:: a "force" that we can't define and can't pin down and can't explain, I don't see how that whole side
Jeremy1952:: does anything but weaken our case.
howbloom:: a system of words
howbloom:: a vocabulary that
howbloom:: demeans the creativity in what we've got
moose1567:: dose anyone remember the photo taken in Yemen, of kids celebrating in the streets after 911, one was wearing a Houston Astros T shirt?
Timothy Schoonover:: such could be said of idealism in general
howbloom:: that fails to see what one member saw above
stevepainter:: you seem to be saying that we're borally "better" than everyone
Chris OConnor:: Moose - nope
howbloom:: to exchange goods or services
howbloom:: is to save each other
stevepainter:: that was morally not borally
Chris OConnor:: Steve - perhaps both
howbloom:: yes, we are better than the Arab countries
Jeremy1952:: Lol, moose, now that's a keeper
howbloom:: that have mass produced poverty
Chris OConnor:: U oh
howbloom:: we are better than the Yanomamo
Jeremy1952:: And of course everyone in the world wants American greenbacks
howbloom:: who collect wives
howbloom:: by killing others
moose1567:: ironic, huh?
Chris OConnor:: who have practiced ...yes
howbloom:: we are better than the battlers of the Balkans
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are we undermining our position by waging war or are we right to pursue military dominance?
howbloom:: who are constantly at each others throats
Chris OConnor:: Howard - it takes some courage to say that...and I am not 100% sold on the idea, but it does make sense
howbloom:: competing with weaponry, not creativity
stevepainter:: of course we're morally "better" in our opinion - if not we'd be crazy
Jeremy1952:: It was suggested, when hard to counterfeit $100. bills came out, that the old ones be invalidated after a time;
howbloom:: we are better than the Islamic fundamentalist
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Jared Diamond would differ I believe
howbloom:: killers
howbloom:: listen to this
Chris OConnor:: ok
Jeremy1952:: no longer legal tender; but they decided it would be destabilizing
howbloom:: here's a rough death toll
stevepainter:: that doesn't mean that we're "Better" in some absolute sense
howbloom:: of modern Islamic jihadism
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: keep in mind a few of our own leaders believe God elected them
howbloom:: over 100,000 have been killed in
Jeremy1952:: because the Russian central bank has us $100. bills that they use to back their currency
howbloom:: Algeria
stevepainter:: non-fundamentalists are better than fundamentalists perhaps
howbloom:: by the jihadists
Chris OConnor:: Steve - as a general rule I suppose
howbloom:: roughly 50,000 have been killed in Kashmir
howbloom:: over a million have been killed
Chris OConnor:: This is all true
howbloom:: in battles between Moslem and non
howbloom:: Moslems
moose1567:: 155,000, go on
howbloom:: in the Sudan and Somalia
howbloom:: and no one pays attention
howbloom:: no one cares
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is the only way to fight fundamentalists to kill them, or can you undermine their support base?
howbloom:: no one puts it in the headlines
stevepainter:: what about our sanctions in Iraq?
howbloom:: I want to undermine the support base
howbloom:: by giving a voice
howbloom:: to the modernist
howbloom:: pluralist
howbloom:: tolerant
howbloom:: Moslems I know
Timothy Schoonover:: So the US is better because our coercive tender is creativity rather than weaponry?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see moderate Muslims gain enough support that they can speak without fear
Chris OConnor:: It is just completely against the "politically correct" stance to ever illuminate anyone’s flaws or differences
howbloom:: I've been seeking them out
stevepainter:: with or without them - makes no difference to Saddam except that he can paint us as the "bad guy"
howbloom:: yes, the us is better because we fight economically
Jeremy1952:: That sounds like a terrific approach
howbloom:: Japan learned that after ww2
howbloom:: so did Germany
Jeremy1952:: Seeking out and supporting the moderates, I mean
stevepainter:: I don't know Tim, we make damn good weapons
howbloom:: no we have to teach it to Islam
howbloom:: now
howbloom:: not no
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will invading Iraq produce a happy liberated population or will it involve mistakes on our side that will give the fundamentalists more propaganda fuel?
howbloom:: we have to pacify this world
howbloom:: here
howbloom:: s
stevepainter:: exactly MG
howbloom:: my problem with Iraq
howbloom:: what we really have to do
howbloom:: is castrate Islam’s
Timothy Schoonover:: I don't think that coercion in any form will lead us to a better society unless you define better to be "physically safer"
howbloom:: nukes
moose1567:: to be beat by the US, is the best thing for any country
howbloom:: and its chemical an biological weapons
Bugteach:: they will never give up their paradigm
howbloom:: one of my Islamic
howbloom:: friends
howbloom:: said to me
howbloom:: two weeks after
howbloom:: 9/11
howbloom:: which I could see from
howbloom:: the window to my right
howbloom:: that we,
howbloom:: meaning we non Moslems
howbloom:: had to do the
howbloom:: following
howbloom:: we had to immediately
howbloom:: immediately
howbloom:: take out the nuclear capabilities
howbloom:: of four countries
howbloom:: and he counted
howbloom:: them out
howbloom:: on his fingers
howbloom:: they were Iraq
howbloom:: Iran
howbloom:: Libya
howbloom:: and Pakistan
howbloom:: and he wanted ME meaning
moose1567:: North Korea?
howbloom:: you and me and all of us
howbloom:: to do it TODAY
howbloom:: Korea's a whole different problem, but to protect Japan and the former Asian
howbloom:: tigers, yes,
Jeremy1952:: I don't see any possible way we could take action against Pakistan. Pakistan is an ally.
howbloom:: denucleate the madmen of
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do we do that without creating millions of mobile enemies which could get biological weapons?
howbloom:: Korea who've reduced
howbloom:: their population to poverty
Jeremy1952:: What happens to our iterative relationships if we turn so quickly on our allies?
howbloom:: and enslavement
stevepainter:: now wait a minute - I'm proud to be an American - I believe in what our country originally stood for...
howbloom:: there are tons of problems
howbloom:: in this imperative
Jeremy1952:: And wtf are we doing in Korea? The U.S. violated our treaties with N, Korea; and then our response is,
stevepainter:: but we walk into many places, take what we want and piss on the inhabitants...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the whole thing is a precarious game...I really don't trust our leaders to understand it deeply enough
stevepainter:: then we get mad that they're upset
Jeremy1952:: "neener neener, we won't talk to you?" Refusing to negotiate,
howbloom:: that's what gets me about Iraq
Jeremy1952:: what kind of position is that/
howbloom:: regime change is irrelevant
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the way our leaders talk, they are herding us into a game we aren't willing to understand
howbloom:: denucleation is the goal
moose1567:: Korea is a potential supplier to those countries mentioned
howbloom:: there's no negotiation in these matters
Chris OConnor:: Steve - we must consider the consequences of our actions - so true
stevepainter:: to top it off, the whole thing is sold to the public as us being the "good guy" all the time
Timothy Schoonover:: regime change is worse than no action
howbloom:: if you wrote about negotiations to bring peace
howbloom:: and what their consequences were
howbloom:: you'd scare yourself half to death
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think the meme "you can't negotiate" is pretty well ingrained on our side, and theirs
howbloom:: did you see the story of the Treaty of Lucarno In 1920
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and therefore true
AvatarofPower left
howbloom:: in the Lucifer principle?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - are you not concerned with WWIII starting over our goal of "denuking" the Middle East?
Jeremy1952:: I don't get it. Nonsense, Michael, they are saying they want to negotiate. We are refusing
howbloom:: yes, I'm concerned
howbloom:: about a war
stevepainter:: why not dredge up how the US government treated the native Americans?
howbloom:: that spins wildly out of control
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think a lot of people WANT a world war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it gives them a feeling of purpose
howbloom:: look, we can talk about the past
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: especially the rapturists
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I am very afraid that the next 20 years will be the downfall of the US empire
howbloom:: as much as we like
howbloom:: but the goal here is to learn from the past
howbloom:: how to survive
Chris OConnor:: Howard - very true
howbloom:: this is survival time
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think the US could fragment into multiple regions at some point
moose1567:: they really don’t want to negotiate, only want to stall
howbloom:: we have something precious
stevepainter:: but is our goal to help or to conquer?
Chris OConnor:: Michael - very possible
howbloom:: this debate could not take place in the Islamic nations
Jeremy1952:: I don't get that either, moose, if you are talking about Korea.
howbloom:: with the possible ex
howbloom:: exception of
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: would weaning ourselves off oil be a good thing? or would it destabilize even more?
stevepainter:: and a number of other places
howbloom:: Indonesia
howbloom:: and Malaysia
Chris OConnor:: Steve - perhaps just to survive at this point
stevepainter:: damn right MG
Jeremy1952:: WE broke the treaty; THEY suggested negotiation; stalling for what?
moose1567:: Iraq and Korea
Bugteach:: we are too concerned about world opinion
howbloom:: and even in Malaysia it's would be tricky
Chris OConnor:: yes, oil dependency is going to bring us down
Bugteach:: we wont do this
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bug, we're in this mess partly because we weren't concerned with world opinion
howbloom:: the freedom to do what we're doing now
stevepainter:: either that, Bug or we're not concerned enough
howbloom:: is precious
howbloom:: fragile
howbloom:: and under attack
stevepainter:: can't have it both ways
howbloom:: from folks
howbloom:: who are sure they will win
howbloom:: because no matter how
howbloom:: many of them we
howbloom:: take down
howbloom:: they will produce more
Jeremy1952:: Oh well. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, members of the jury; Time for me to go. Howard Bloom, thanks very much
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think we're under attack from ourselves as well...the culture wars. There's a lot of resentment against the 60's and sexual freedom etc.
howbloom:: more martyrs
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye Jeremy
Jeremy1952:: much for joining us!
howbloom:: more muhahidan
Bugteach:: china has that same mo
howbloom:: Jeremy, thanks
Chris OConnor:: Goodnight Jeremy
Jeremy1952:: See y'all next week (& on the board!)
Bugteach:: aren’t they next
Jeremy1952 left
stevepainter:: bye Jeremy
howbloom:: China
Bugteach:: yes
howbloom:: you've got it
Chris OConnor:: Howard - so what is the ultimate solution? Or is there none?
howbloom:: China is going to stay quiet
Chris OConnor:: china is a sleeping giant
howbloom:: and let the Jihadists and the Westerners duke it out
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what would Bush do if China attacked Taiwan?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - yes, so true
howbloom:: it is sleeping for a strategic
howbloom:: reason
Chris OConnor:: China scares me
Bugteach:: they feel that they have a lot to give / if you get my point
howbloom:: we will weaken ourselves
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: America and china both scare me
howbloom:: and weaken another ally and enemy of china
howbloom:: Islam
howbloom:: China's
Chris OConnor:: yes, I believe they have a very good strategy
howbloom:: Xingiang province
howbloom:: is perpetually under attack
howbloom:: from Islam
howbloom:: there are
howbloom:: al qaida
howbloom:: cells in Singapore
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I agree
howbloom:: Malaysia
stevepainter:: not to go off on a tangent, but my kids noticed almost all the gifts they got this holiday season were made in China
howbloom:: and Indonesia
howbloom:: China is a target of militant
howbloom:: Islam
howbloom:: but why not
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there an opening for a global grassroots creative group to offset all the strategic gaming by superpowers?
howbloom:: sleep peacefully
howbloom:: build more factories
howbloom:: export more goods
Bugteach:: prepare for war
howbloom:: horde your income from exports
howbloom:: and wait while your enemies
howbloom:: come close to annihilating
howbloom:: each other
howbloom:: so they can leave the world
howbloom:: to you
Bugteach:: sounds familiar
howbloom:: a new hegemony
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can humanity survive the next century if the war machines keep bashing into each other?
howbloom:: something china is shooting for
stevepainter:: go back to Michael's point about weaning us from oil
howbloom:: ok
howbloom:: one huge bush mistake
Chris OConnor:: Yes, oil is a major issue
howbloom:: was started by Ronald Reagan
stevepainter:: we are the world's biggest consumer - stop buying from them and they lose power
howbloom:: here's another brief story
howbloom:: if you can stand one
moose1567:: go
howbloom:: in the 1970s we were
howbloom:: in Jimmy Carters
howbloom:: moral equivalent to war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we've been taught to forget how our consuming affects the world
howbloom:: we were pouring money
howbloom:: into the development of
moose1567:: solar
Chris OConnor:: Steve - true, but I have heard it argued that if you starve your neighbor they will soon go to where the food is
howbloom:: sustainable technologies
howbloom:: yes
Bugteach:: the third bear/
howbloom:: solar
howbloom:: I was involved in the solar
howbloom:: movement
moose1567:: me too
howbloom:: we were on the verge of
howbloom:: developing wind harvesters of a
howbloom:: radically new kind
howbloom:: we'd done the research and had built the
moose1567:: carters goal was to be 20% solar by 2000
stevepainter:: it's all about money
howbloom:: prototypes
howbloom:: then came Reagan
Chris OConnor:: Wind power would be incredible
howbloom:: and nearly wiped the project out
howbloom:: withdrew the funding
Chris OConnor:: Moose - that would have eliminated many of our problems
Timothy Schoonover:: damn the GOP
moose1567:: Reagan killed it
howbloom:: killed the technology
howbloom:: in its cradle
howbloom:: but the Danes and Scandinavians
howbloom:: were not as stupid as Reagan
howbloom:: and were not beholden to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm amazed at how regressive political rhetoric has gotten...there is the same division between "commie peacenik liberals" and "family values conservatives"
howbloom:: oil companies
howbloom:: as he was
moose1567:: Israel is close to 35% solar now
howbloom:: so the Scandinavians took our new wind harvesters
howbloom:: and mass produced them
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: let's bomb them!
howbloom:: when Bush took power, he cut what little was left
Chris OConnor:: Moose - are you serious?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bastard Scandinavians!
howbloom:: of an alternative energy development budget
Chris OConnor:: Yes, bomb Norway
howbloom:: and lopped it in half again
howbloom:: meanwhile
moose1567:: yep
howbloom:: when his buddies took down Enron
stevepainter:: we're more dependent on fossil fuels than ever
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush seems to be running on fear politics alone...he'll have to keep pushing us into war in order to stay in office
Chris OConnor:: true
howbloom:: there was one profitable part of the company
howbloom:: left standing
howbloom:: and that was of all things
Chris OConnor:: solar
Chris OConnor:: ??
howbloom:: Enron’s wind power division
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the one thing bush cannot do politically is appear weak
moose1567:: oil companies bought up a lot of patents too and sitting on them
howbloom:: solar is the same story all over again
Chris OConnor:: I didn't even know they had such a div
howbloom:: as for the politics of fear
howbloom:: there are times when fear is paranoid
howbloom:: times when it is manipulative
stevepainter:: is that true, Moose? I always thought that was a conspiracy theory view
howbloom:: and times when it is necessary
Timothy Schoonover:: There's always another side of the story...I'd be interested to here it.
howbloom:: fear arises to protect us
howbloom:: to galvanize us
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Howard--that's the thing. I think fear is rational, but ALSO being manipulated.
howbloom:: against an enemy
Chris OConnor:: Moose - that would make a great topic for the message boards
moose1567:: from my readings
Bugteach:: who is the enemy
howbloom:: and we are up against the biggest enemy we've faced since
howbloom:: Adolph
Timothy Schoonover:: Machiavelli though as much.
howbloom:: shicklegrupber
stevepainter:: Bush?
Chris OConnor:: Who?
howbloom:: a global enemy that’s in a position
moose1567:: WHO?
Chris OConnor:: LOL
moose1567:: lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush believes God put him in office.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that worries me
Chris OConnor:: Does that mean Bush in Swahili?
stevepainter:: oh yeah
Bugteach:: the ideas of that group or their anger towards us/
howbloom:: like that of Adolph in 1933 to 1936
howbloom:: when he was vulnerable and could have been stopped
stevepainter:: "ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand"
howbloom:: if we don't have fear today
howbloom:: we'll have nightmares of mass murder tomorrow
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the problem is we can't separate rational fear from irrational fear
Timothy Schoonover:: /g I would prefer to use the word concern rather than fear
stevepainter:: what is "rational" is subjective to the individual
howbloom:: right now if we're not prejudiced against jihadists
howbloom:: we are crazy
Chris OConnor:: I agree
Chris OConnor:: Totally
stevepainter:: that's true
howbloom:: because the jihadists want to kill us
moose1567:: [_]D
howbloom:: and that's for real
Chris OConnor:: Moose - thanks
Bugteach:: we are fearful but it apparently hasn’t fully manifested because we cant even say that we are in a war with Islam
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: our own fundamentalists bother me...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not sure if we're properly afraid of them
stevepainter:: me too, MG
Chris OConnor:: Bug - excellent point
howbloom:: our own fundamentalists have become irrelevant
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: think so?
Chris OConnor:: Bug - we are so caught up with being "tolerant"
stevepainter:: some seem to have taken over lately
Bugteach:: not all of us
howbloom:: and you're hearing that from a fundamentalist fighter
howbloom:: the most accurate assessment
howbloom:: of our current situation I've seen
howbloom:: came from
stevepainter:: I don't agree Howard
howbloom:: an old enemy of mine
howbloom:: Pat Robertson
Chris OConnor:: enemy?
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
Timothy Schoonover:: *hiss*
howbloom:: who said we have two dangers
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I downloaded a US army manual the other day, and someone had imbedded a White Resistance Handbook in the zip file
stevepainter:: they are relevant in that they seem to enjoy their vision of Armageddon
Chris OConnor:: he is an enemy of anyone who values reason
howbloom:: that we're up against
Chris OConnor:: LOL Tim
howbloom:: one is Islam
howbloom:: the second is the danger of new legislation
stevepainter:: fundamentalist Islam
howbloom:: to our civil rights
Chris OConnor:: Michael - that’s weird
howbloom:: yes, fundamentalist Islam
Bugteach:: homeland security
Chris OConnor:: Ok, thanks for clarifying that
howbloom:: here's something else
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've been surprised how much racism and hate exists in my own country
howbloom:: it has become common
howbloom:: to refer to Islamic Moslems as islamists
howbloom:: I hate that term and
howbloom:: oppose it
stevepainter:: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security " B. Franklin
howbloom:: it hints that all Islam is our enemy
howbloom:: I prefer the term jihadists
Bugteach:: radicals?
howbloom:: only those who want jihad are our enemies, not all Moslems
moose1567:: i agree
Chris OConnor:: Steve - Ranklin had more great quotes than anyone
howbloom:: but there's a twist
Chris OConnor:: Steve - and so did Franklin
howbloom:: 20 minutes
howbloom:: before this chat began
howbloom:: one of my Islamic friends
Timothy Schoonover:: Chris - except Eminem
stevepainter:: even jihad has been perverted - it means "struggle" and might mean a war or a more personal thing
howbloom:: read over the proposal for The Hidden Heartbeat
Chris OConnor:: Tim - Yes, his vivacious vernacular gives me chills
howbloom:: of America--Reinventing Capitalism
howbloom:: He looked at my summary of Osama's views
moose1567:: and....
howbloom:: and said that these were exactly the views
stevepainter:: ack - not Eminem - say it aint so, Chris
Chris OConnor:: Howard - can you provide a summary to us? via email or URL?
howbloom:: in his upscale, professional, Brooklyn, modern community
Bugteach:: t cells?
Chris OConnor:: Steve - I was kidding
howbloom:: the summary of Osama's views?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Howard--so does that mean American Muslims will find themselves in internment camps eventually?
howbloom:: no, not cells, the general
NaddiaAoC:: Eminem will be president some day.
stevepainter:: whew!
howbloom:: population
howbloom:: men, women, and children
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I thought you meant of your next book
howbloom:: nearly all his friends
howbloom:: the tenants in his building
howbloom:: who are Pakistani
Chris OConnor:: Naddia - when you speak - its powerful
Bugteach:: we’ve been infected w/o our knowing worse than we thought
howbloom:: the folks in his mosque
howbloom:: his imam
moose1567:: I’ve been waiting for Naddia to say something... but...
howbloom:: everyone around him
NaddiaAoC:: I know Chris. I'm very profound like that.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do they all support the use of attacks on civilians?
howbloom:: ok, let's hear Nadia
howbloom:: yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's frightening
howbloom:: the do support murderous jihad
Chris OConnor:: Howard - give a guesstimate of what percentage of Islamic people are our enemies - or fundamentalists
howbloom:: they cheer it
moose1567:: yeah Naddia, go ahead!
Chris OConnor::
howbloom:: I thought the fundamentalists
howbloom:: were
howbloom:: 20% of the Islamic community
howbloom:: which would mean 240 million people
Bugteach:: more like half
Chris OConnor:: Howard - ok, thanks
howbloom:: roughly the population of the us
howbloom:: but my Moslem friend said I was crazy
Chris OConnor:: Howard - huge superorganism
stevepainter:: I'd buy the 20% figure
howbloom:: the figure was 60%
Bugteach:: right
Chris OConnor:: Wow 60 is scary
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you defeat that?
howbloom:: roughly 720 million people
Chris OConnor:: yes, how?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: need an antivirus
howbloom:: and tonight he acted as if that percentage has gone up in recent weeks
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will war alone work?
Chris OConnor:: Michael - LOL You are correct!
howbloom:: partly because of what we call our tolerance
Bugteach:: nortons?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - explain
Chris OConnor:: Howard - what tolerance?
howbloom:: our desire to escape stereotyping and prejudice
stevepainter:: but most are followers - improve their lot and they suddenly lose the will to act violently
Chris OConnor:: Yes, damn
Timothy Schoonover:: I don't see how denucleation will solve that.
NaddiaAoC:: Fundamentalism sucks. That's my observation for the night. I'll sign autographs later.
howbloom:: LOL
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: conservatives put down "tolerance" a lot
Chris OConnor:: Tim - but isn't it a step in the right direction?
Bugteach:: they will only respect a decisive hand!
howbloom:: who will only
howbloom:: respect
Chris OConnor:: Naddia - omg
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bug--will they?
howbloom:: a decisive hand?
moose1567:: can i have a signed 8x10 naddia?
Bugteach:: the radicals
howbloom:: ok
Timothy Schoonover:: I don't think radical change is ever a positive step.
NaddiaAoC:: Sure Moose
howbloom:: here's the thinking
moose1567:: ty naddia
howbloom:: in another intellectual community
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't know if they would respect us for our power alone
howbloom:: the HBD group
Chris OConnor:: What a scary topic, but one that absolutely MUST be addressed
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I certainly wouldn't respect us for that alone
moose1567:: I’m your biggest fan
howbloom:: the human behavioral differences group
howbloom:: wanna hear it?
Chris OConnor:: Yes
Chris OConnor:: Please
howbloom:: the HBD group
Bugteach:: go for it
howbloom:: is an elite email
howbloom:: gathering of folks who lean to the right
stevepainter:: that respect only lasts until the downtrodden gain the upper hand
NaddiaAoC:: I know you are, Moose. That's why you get and 8 x 10 and everyone else gets a wallet size.
howbloom:: people like
moose1567:: lol
howbloom:: Charles Murray, author of The Bell Curve
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: and a lot of us liberals whose
howbloom:: liberalism is now too narrow
howbloom:: and needs serious reinvention
howbloom:: folks like Francis Fukuyama
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the "elites" fail to impress me with their intellect...
howbloom:: and like Lionel Toger
howbloom:: do you know their names?
moose1567:: its become a dirty word thanks to Reagan
Bugteach:: vaguely
howbloom:: they point to militaristic Japan
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: fukuyama I've read a few things by
Chris OConnor:: I've always considered the "elite" to be the scientists and educators
howbloom:: in the days leading to WWII
Chris OConnor:: I don't know their names
howbloom:: a war Hitler and Tojo couldn't wait to start
Bugteach:: why
howbloom:: Japan was so militaristic that when we advanced toward their
howbloom:: country
howbloom:: every citizen seemed prepared to be a martyr
howbloom:: to attack as many Americans as possible and to die
howbloom:: trying to kill more
howbloom:: Truman had the
howbloom:: figures on the probable death toll
howbloom:: calculated and the figure was
Bugteach:: they had no conscious
howbloom:: humongous
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: before the clash of civilizations, we had school kids shooting up their schools...maybe the global organism is having problems all around
howbloom:: he had seen in Okinawa that the Japanese prized death
howbloom:: more than we prize life
howbloom:: instead of losing a total of a million people
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I get the sense that martyrdom is release from shame for jihadists
howbloom:: Japanese suicide warrior civilians and
stevepainter:: they prized pride and their version of honor
howbloom:: American troops
howbloom:: Truman decided on the lesser of available
howbloom:: evils and chose
howbloom:: to nuke Hiroshima
moose1567:: da bomb
howbloom:: that ended the military hold
howbloom:: on Japan permanently
howbloom:: and Japan joined the western system
howbloom:: of competition via
howbloom:: creativity
howbloom:: and trade
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry that if we ever use extreme means to win a war, we will fragment and be at each other's throats the day after.
moose1567:: and is now kicking our asses economically
howbloom:: competition caring about and serving other people's needs
Bugteach:: so da nuke is the answer/
stevepainter:: so are you trying to say that we should nuke Iraq and go from there?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think undertones of guilt make our culture unstable
Chris OConnor:: hmmm
howbloom:: I would like to pinpoint
howbloom:: targets
howbloom:: the deep military tunnels
howbloom:: Khaddafi has dug
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: does Libya have nukes?
Bugteach:: how many/
howbloom:: for his weapons development
Timothy Schoonover:: how can capitalism inspire anything other than self-interest?
howbloom:: it's working on them but it's out of the press limelight
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think capitalism can be creative
howbloom:: which has given it an opportunity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: should be
howbloom:: tod do anything it wants
howbloom:: capitalism
howbloom:: the topic I'm working on
howbloom:: to make money
howbloom:: in the capitalist system
stevepainter:: rational self-interest isn't necessarily "selfish" in a bad sense
howbloom:: you have to care for other people tremendously
Chris OConnor:: Steve - true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I do think a lot of creative people, for one reason or another, aren't able to make a living being creative
howbloom:: you have to have the virtues of a saint
howbloom:: rational self interest
howbloom:: is a travesty
howbloom:: it is not the way things work
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the system elevates people with a small range of talent and those who are really renaissance minds don't make much money
Timothy Schoonover:: can you be a little more specific about what is creativity?
howbloom:: in economics or psychology
Timothy Schoonover:: econ
howbloom:: the trick is to feel out others needs
howbloom:: and to service them with genuine care
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think we need a capitalism with an awareness of interdependence rather than the illusion that you buy something and it doesn't affect the world
Bugteach:: we failed that test
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree Howard
howbloom:: that's what makes a small business or a major industry work
howbloom:: but most folks just don't get it
howbloom:: they don't understand the capitalist imperative
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've been reading some stuff on neurolinguistic programming in sales...strange field
Bugteach:: our govt. flip/flops with its policy changes
howbloom:: save thy neighbor as thy would save thineself
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: :Agrees
howbloom:: serve they neighbor as one would serve thyself
stevepainter:: that's true - but that is rational self-interest in my opinion - helping the others helps yourself in that case
Bugteach:: from dems to reps
Timothy Schoonover:: It's easy to say what capitalism *should* do, but *how* is what matters.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: employ thy neighbor as one would employ thyself
howbloom:: when I was doing my fieldwork in the entertainment industry
howbloom:: I worked out how to do it and made billions
howbloom:: of dollars
howbloom:: for major companies
Timothy Schoonover:: I'm listening.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's another thing, I'd like to see music deal with real issues again...I'm tired of the lyrics that get played
Bugteach:: that’s the goal but we drift away from those moral imperatives
howbloom:: but I had to fight with the companies that made the profits
Chris OConnor:: Tim - so true
howbloom:: to make those profits for them
howbloom:: why?
howbloom:: because they swallowed
moose1567:: i gotta go, nice meeting you Howard Bloom, thanks for being here, goodnight friends, esp. naddia, muah!
howbloom:: the Marxists picture of capitalism
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: later moose
Timothy Schoonover:: night moose
howbloom:: they thought capitalism was about greed
Chris OConnor:: Howard - have you written any essays on your work in the music industry?
Chris OConnor:: Bye Moose
howbloom:: about stuffing your pockets and manipulating human needs
moose1567 left
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see that too
howbloom:: I've got 300 Mb of stuff written in the computer
howbloom:: 3,700 chapters
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: anthropology in the entertainment scene
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I would love to read about your music background
howbloom:: and a problem getting it into books
howbloom:: because right now I'm concentrating on television
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I would imagine that would be a challenge
howbloom:: science needs to reach people
Chris OConnor:: Howard - yes, that’s what I heard
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I totally agree!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wish they'd had participatory sociology in high school
howbloom:: there's an anti science movement that's been brewing since roughly 168
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ever read the Un-TV and the 10MPH car?
howbloom:: 1968
Chris OConnor:: Howard - are you familiar with Ann Druyans attempt at bringing science to the masses? Project Voyager?
howbloom:: and it has to be reversed
Bugteach:: they are too busy trying to genetically change us
howbloom:: what was project voyager?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we see that every day in chat, Howard...people with very little knowledge of science trying to shoot down science
Chris OConnor:: Howard - it didn't fly
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Yes
howbloom:: my project, I hope will
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you need to get pop stars to put science in their lyrics
stevepainter:: it's depressing, MG
howbloom:: I’m working on it
howbloom:: I have commitments to do just that
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I wish you luck with it and think it is soooo important
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: need rap music with nerd lyrics
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: great
howbloom:: I'm trying to go multimedia, totally panoptic
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that would be a fun field
stevepainter:: not that, MG
Chris OConnor:: Michael - You are so right
howbloom:: to reach people with the message that we can change the world
howbloom:: we can change each others lives
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Eminem teaching science...that would be great
howbloom:: science is a tool of understanding
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: britney spears teaching psychology lol
howbloom:: technology gives us the equivalent
Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow...if you could use the language of the youth - music - you could reach the most important demographic - the impressionable youth
howbloom:: of new eyes, new ears
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: scary though
howbloom:: new limbs
stevepainter:: all kidding aside, this is true - mass media pop culture teaching science instead of anti-science would be great
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I had a vision of that long time ago, entertainers mounting a sociology campaign
howbloom:: and that capitalism is about caring for other people
howbloom:: for being open to your own emotions and your fantasies
howbloom:: find a way to fill them and you will find a way to
howbloom:: fill these dreams for multitudes
howbloom:: that's capitalism
Chris OConnor:: Now that excites me
howbloom:: Look, in industry
howbloom:: in major corporations I functioned
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see a lot of dreams going stale in this system...people feel they have to be someone else to succeed
howbloom:: like a prophet
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: dreams taken by the system with the dreamers left out in the cold
howbloom:: I looked for emotional truths in the center of the soul of the artists I worked with
howbloom:: and rammed those truths home
Chris OConnor:: wow
howbloom:: cut straight through the corporate bureaucracy
howbloom:: like butter
howbloom:: so I could take this flame of soul
howbloom:: to a public hungering for it
Chris OConnor:: I bet you have some interesting stuff typed up about this
howbloom:: the companies fought and kicked and screams
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you should join forces with Ann Druyan and Dorion
howbloom:: but they made money that saved them
howbloom:: Ann and I are supposed ot meet
Chris OConnor:: Howard - she is awesome
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't know who that is chris
howbloom:: her financial backer is a major fan of this plan
Chris OConnor:: Howard - she would be an asset
Chris OConnor:: Carl Sagan’s widow
Chris OConnor:: And Dorion is Sagans son
howbloom:: the wraparound-all-media plan to get science across as a secular religion
howbloom:: Dorion has been
howbloom:: a good friend for eleven years
stevepainter:: Howard, who have you worked with besides Michael Jackson and John Cougar (both listed in Lucifer Principle)?
Chris OConnor:: Dorion is not an astronomer - but has books out - biology I believe?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that will make the fundies happy lol
howbloom:: who have I worked with?
howbloom:: Michael Jackson, John Mellencamp, Prince, Billy Joel, Joan
stevepainter:: in the music industry - just curious
howbloom:: Jett, Billy Idol
stevepainter:: interesting
howbloom:: Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: mellencamp's "we are the people" was an interesting song
howbloom:: Run DMC
stevepainter:: thanks
Chris OConnor:: Those are big names, and from what I have read you are largely responsible for taking them up the ladder of success
howbloom:: I helped establish the
Timothy Schoonover joined
howbloom:: a bunch of sub cultural movements
howbloom:: which was really one of my major interests
Chris OConnor:: Howard - ok, weird question but what music do you listen to?
stevepainter:: saw Prince once - heel of a performer
howbloom:: they included
howbloom:: country crossover
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what sub cultural movements would you identify as being important now?
stevepainter:: that was hell of a performer oops
howbloom:: getting Nashville across to America
Chris OConnor:: I love country
howbloom:: establishing disco
howbloom:: which was the music of the gay community
stevepainter:: ack - I can't stand country
howbloom:: its statement that it had a right to be
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: country-disco?
howbloom:: punk music in 1978
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "My pickup truck died and I can't stop dancing..."
Chris OConnor:: Steve - I said that too until I was given 10 country CD’s for free. I listened to them with the "open mind" I value so much and couldn't believe what I heard
howbloom:: rap music in 1981
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Michael
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think rap with better lyrics would be great
howbloom:: and the kind of black crossover that gave Michael Jackson and Prince
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like some rap a lot but the lyrics are an impediment...and MTV isn't helping
stevepainter:: can't do it Chris - I like some, but in general I can't stand it
howbloom:: a place on MTV
howbloom:: also
howbloom:: fusion jazz
howbloom:: and
Chris OConnor:: I love rap, heavy metal, jazz, blues, opera, classical, folk, etc...I am a music nut
stevepainter:: same with Rap - I like some, but that's about it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want to hear more rap with science lyrics
howbloom:: new age music
howbloom:: oh, and heavy metal
howbloom:: especially theatrical rock
stevepainter:: listen to Rush's Roll the Bones for a lame white-boy nerd rap
howbloom:: like David Bowie and Alice Cooper
Chris OConnor:: Howard - if you can fuse the message of science with music you will change the world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this is making me want to go write songs
howbloom:: I worked to establish these things
howbloom:: whether I liked the music or not
stevepainter:: they didn't try it again
howbloom:: because these humans had a right to be
Chris OConnor:: Howard - do you listen to all of that?
howbloom:: and in expressing themselves they expressed and validated
howbloom:: multitudes of others
Bugteach:: thanks for your invite - Howard and Chris enjoyed the chat - Bug's out
howbloom:: telling them they had a right to be
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye bug
howbloom:: night bug
stevepainter:: bye bug
Timothy Schoonover:: night
Chris OConnor:: Bug - I hope to see you in BookTalk
NaddiaAoC:: Bye Bug
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm here till the end. I have no life
Bugteach:: thanks will do again<


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