Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:34 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
*** Chapter 16 *** - The World as a Polder 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13861
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1878
Thanked: 720 times in 572 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 9

Post *** Chapter 16 *** - The World as a Polder
This thread is for discussing Ch. 16 - The World as a Polder: What Does It All Mean to Us Today?

You can post within this framework or create your own threads.


Edited by: misterpessimistic  at: 6/18/05 3:17 pm



Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:47 am
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Genuinely Genius

Silver Contributor

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 807
Location: NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
On p 496 Diamond asks, "What will happen when it finally dawns on all those people in the Third World that current First World Standards are unreachable fo them, and that the First World refuses to abandon those standards itself?" What do you think will happen? Will there be a world war? Will the First World eventually be pressured into giving up some luxuries? Do you think that somehow technology will provide a way for everyone to live as the First World does before we all reach a breaking point? I hate to be the pessimist here, for I know that job belongs to someone else, but I almost feel that a world war might fix the problem for us if we don't start conserving now. We see this fix through war on a smaller scale in other countries. I don't see what would prevent it from happening on a larger scale.




Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:27 pm
Profile


Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
That's a very scary post. A highly intelligent and compassionate individual has been groomed into acceptance of, and acceptance of responsibility for, global conflict, based on a completely false world view constructed for public consumption by a trans-national power elite and mediated to the public through false prophets like Jared Diamond.

Taking the situation in Africa for example; in Africa around 80% of the population survive by subsistence agriculture; 80% of subsistence agriculture is performed by African women. African men, as well as scorning agricultural and domestic work, expect to have many sexual partners and continue to have many sexual partners even when married. The African male is a tribal chief in his own household. African political leaders act like tribal chiefs, African leaders see the role of the people as being to enrich the chief and his followers. The country serves the ruler. The ruler does not serve the country. The political culture of Africa is, sadly, a reflection of the popular culture of Africa. Before I get accused of racism, I'm not saying that this is true of all or even most of Africa, but it is true of enough of most African countries to be the most significant factor in the continuing poverty in this continent. Until recently most people realized that Africa's relative poverty was a multi-faceted phenomenon with a multiplicity of contributing factors. No one was happy about it, but no one was stupid enough to think that any one simple strategy could resolve Africa's dilemma. Almost overnight Western Europeans, the most productive (in terms of useful inventions, technological innovations and medical breakthroughs, etc.) people in the world have been taught to believe that they and they alone are responsible for the plight of not only Africa, but of any group or nation, who happen, regardless of any behavior on their part, to be less affluent than Anglo-Americans.

We are encouraged to pour our wealth away, but in reality our per-capita affluence in the West is a bi-product of our greater individual freedoms, hard won over many century's of struggle. In targeting our wealth the plutocrats are secretly plotting to steal our freedom, because our freedom is a power which is dangerous to their authority.

Edited by: badmendicant at: 6/18/05 6:18 pm



Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:57 pm
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Pope of Literature


Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2553
Location: decentralized
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
tarav: What do you think will happen?

Terrorism seems like a likely start. Oh, lookie there: it's started.

Will the First World eventually be pressured into giving up some luxuries?

Would anyone be satisfies with minor concessions, at least for very long?

Do you think that somehow technology will provide a way for everyone to live as the First World does before we all reach a breaking point?

No. I think it's neither technologically nor economically feasible to have everyone living at the same level of material status, class or what have you. It is not, to my mind, an explicitly ecological problem. Social systems like ours simply operate on imbalance.

What you may see is the blurring of geopolitical lines of inequality, at which point the First and Third Worlds, so called, will be a matter not of geopolitical boundaries but of divisions that are mostly transparent. To some extent, that's already the case, and there are many people living in Third World conditions within nominally First World nations. Varying factors contribute to those intranational "problem areas", but the major factor is the socio-economic indispensibility of radical degrees of inequality.

badmendicant: Before I get accused of racism, I'm not saying that this is true of all or even most of Africa, but it is true of enough of most African countries to be the most significant factor in the continuing poverty in this continent.

I'm not worried about racism as much as I'm worried about the veracity of your claims. Do you have a source for the percentages and the descriptions you've posted here?

Almost overnight Western Europeans, the most productive (in terms of useful inventions, technological innovations and medical breakthroughs, etc.) people in the world have been taught to believe that they and they alone are responsible for the plight of not only Africa, but of any group or nation, who happen, regardless of any behavior on their part, to be less affluent than Anglo-Americans.

One major reason for our "crisis of conscience" is that we increasingly exploit the poverty of such nations. Were that not so, I suspect that we would likely maintain that characteristically Victorian perspective that the Third World can bloody well pull itself up by its own bootstraps if they want to live by our standards of wealth. We feel responsible because we have found ourselves to be either tacitly or actively complicit in the factors that tend to sustain Third or Second world circumstances outside the West.

In targeting our wealth the plutocrats are secretly plotting to steal our freedom, because our freedom is a power which is dangerous to their authority.

Sounds vaguely like a form of conspiracy theory.




Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:42 pm
Profile


Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
MA

I just posted a lengthy response to your rather insightful post only to find that I had been logged f****g well out of EZboard.

I'll post my response in condensed form, who knows, maybe it wont be as boring!

Modern terrorists tend to be middle-class Muslims not sub-Saharan Africans or Indian Dalits.

Regional global inequalities in wealth should be expected when there are radical global differences in culture.

The IMF the World Bank and Western Corporations interacted with Eastern Asia in exactly the same way as they did Africa. East Asian economic development has been rapid and astonishing. It is logical therefore to attribute economic differences to regional modalities of culture rather than exploitative interventionism.

If this is wrong Malaysia, China, South Korea etc., must owe their economic growth to the exploitation of some other region. Why is no one making this claim? Where is this region?

North Korea has rejected Western trading terms and is not suffering from capitalist "exploitation". North Korea has one of the lowest standards of living in the world, as does Cuba.

The idea that Western affluence is the creation of the exploitation of Africans is intended to lead to an acceptance of a decline in standards of living. The realities of this will be less social welfare, longer working days and weeks and declining wages. Anyone who complains will just get called a greedy, lazy Westerner. Does no one see this beginning to happen? Welcome to the new world order, and you are welcome to it too!

The poverty of Africa is being used to dissolve the autonomy and affluence of Western citizens to consolidate the hegemony of a nascent trans-national elite, who themselves ultimately care not a pixel about starving Africans.

There is such a thing as a true conspiracy BTW.





Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:32 pm


Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
"What will happen when it finally dawns on all those people in the Third World that current First World Standards are unreachable fo them, and that the First World refuses to abandon those standards itself?"

Nothing like you think. No revolution, no uprising of the oppressed masses. Just more commercialism, striving for any mobility that is possible.

I think you guys underestimate the power of apathy and lack of momentum.

Marti in Mexico




Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:55 pm
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Professor

Silver Contributor

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3542
Location: NJ
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
Quote:
"If there was hope, it must lie in the proles because only there,
in those swarming disregarded masses, 85 percent of the population of Oceania,
could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated...
The proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength,
would have no need to conspire.
They needed only to rise up and shake themselves
like a horse shaking off flies...
Surely sooner or later it must occur to them to do it?"

...

Until they become conscious they will never rebel,
and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.

~ George Orwell aka Winston Smith



Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Edited by: misterpessimistic  at: 6/20/05 8:04 pm



Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:45 pm
Profile YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Professor

Silver Contributor

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3542
Location: NJ
Thanks: 1
Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
Quote:
We are encouraged to pour our wealth away, but in reality our per-capita affluence in the West is a bi-product of our greater individual freedoms, hard won over many century's of struggle. In targeting our wealth the plutocrats are secretly plotting to steal our freedom, because our freedom is a power which is dangerous to their authority.


MAN I wish I had some of that "wealth" that we are swimming in?

What is wealth. What is the formula that an American should fit into in order to be considered part of the wealthy crew? Is it just income level? Is it Income - debt carried?

Our consumption is funded by over-extending our finances and our family finances until we are hopelessly in debt. Most people are given a false sense of wealth, then fight side by side with those that make us feel we are part of the gang.

Most people who complain about paying high taxes and gaining a substantial savings from tax cuts do not actually save much at all when it comes down to it. I explained this to a friend and showed numbers and this person still swore by the tax cut that saved him $200 for one year. I would gladly part with $200 a year if that money would be used wisely. That is the key phrase.

Sorry...that was a tangent was'nt it?

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:51 pm
Profile YIM WWW


Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
Agree with your sentiments MrP. I think that we are being sold a spurious definition of wealth. Wealth is being promoted as a surfeit of material possessions. I think that true wealth is freedom from financial worry.

Status in society was once governed by the much maligned concept of respectability. Being fair, self-sufficient and honest made you respected. Now status is measured by gaudy displays of "designer" products and "lifestyle choices".

Once you buy out of this paradigm you can do some serious downsizing. This way I can pretend to myself that I'm an economic lone-wolf, subverting the establishment and "stickin it to the man", whereas the truth is that I'm probably just a tight fisted Calvinist, ha,ha!




Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:30 am


Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
Or, a tight fisted agnostic, as the case may be.

::100

WW




Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:53 am


Post Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
LOL!




Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:12 am
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


A Nation Under Judgment by Richard Capriola


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books






BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Frankenstein - by Mary ShelleyThe Big Questions - by Simon BlackburnScience Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank