Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 806 Location: NC
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Country:
Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
On p 496 Diamond asks, "What will happen when it finally dawns on all those people in the Third World that current First World Standards are unreachable fo them, and that the First World refuses to abandon those standards itself?" What do you think will happen? Will there be a world war? Will the First World eventually be pressured into giving up some luxuries? Do you think that somehow technology will provide a way for everyone to live as the First World does before we all reach a breaking point? I hate to be the pessimist here, for I know that job belongs to someone else, but I almost feel that a world war might fix the problem for us if we don't start conserving now. We see this fix through war on a smaller scale in other countries. I don't see what would prevent it from happening on a larger scale.
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 80
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
That's a very scary post. A highly intelligent and compassionate individual has been groomed into acceptance of, and acceptance of responsibility for, global conflict, based on a completely false world view constructed for public consumption by a trans-national power elite and mediated to the public through false prophets like Jared Diamond.
Taking the situation in Africa for example; in Africa around 80% of the population survive by subsistence agriculture; 80% of subsistence agriculture is performed by African women. African men, as well as scorning agricultural and domestic work, expect to have many sexual partners and continue to have many sexual partners even when married. The African male is a tribal chief in his own household. African political leaders act like tribal chiefs, African leaders see the role of the people as being to enrich the chief and his followers. The country serves the ruler. The ruler does not serve the country. The political culture of Africa is, sadly, a reflection of the popular culture of Africa. Before I get accused of racism, I'm not saying that this is true of all or even most of Africa, but it is true of enough of most African countries to be the most significant factor in the continuing poverty in this continent. Until recently most people realized that Africa's relative poverty was a multi-faceted phenomenon with a multiplicity of contributing factors. No one was happy about it, but no one was stupid enough to think that any one simple strategy could resolve Africa's dilemma. Almost overnight Western Europeans, the most productive (in terms of useful inventions, technological innovations and medical breakthroughs, etc.) people in the world have been taught to believe that they and they alone are responsible for the plight of not only Africa, but of any group or nation, who happen, regardless of any behavior on their part, to be less affluent than Anglo-Americans.
We are encouraged to pour our wealth away, but in reality our per-capita affluence in the West is a bi-product of our greater individual freedoms, hard won over many century's of struggle. In targeting our wealth the plutocrats are secretly plotting to steal our freedom, because our freedom is a power which is dangerous to their authority.
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 2557 Location: decentralized
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
tarav: What do you think will happen?
Terrorism seems like a likely start. Oh, lookie there: it's started.
Will the First World eventually be pressured into giving up some luxuries?
Would anyone be satisfies with minor concessions, at least for very long?
Do you think that somehow technology will provide a way for everyone to live as the First World does before we all reach a breaking point?
No. I think it's neither technologically nor economically feasible to have everyone living at the same level of material status, class or what have you. It is not, to my mind, an explicitly ecological problem. Social systems like ours simply operate on imbalance.
What you may see is the blurring of geopolitical lines of inequality, at which point the First and Third Worlds, so called, will be a matter not of geopolitical boundaries but of divisions that are mostly transparent. To some extent, that's already the case, and there are many people living in Third World conditions within nominally First World nations. Varying factors contribute to those intranational "problem areas", but the major factor is the socio-economic indispensibility of radical degrees of inequality.
badmendicant: Before I get accused of racism, I'm not saying that this is true of all or even most of Africa, but it is true of enough of most African countries to be the most significant factor in the continuing poverty in this continent.
I'm not worried about racism as much as I'm worried about the veracity of your claims. Do you have a source for the percentages and the descriptions you've posted here?
Almost overnight Western Europeans, the most productive (in terms of useful inventions, technological innovations and medical breakthroughs, etc.) people in the world have been taught to believe that they and they alone are responsible for the plight of not only Africa, but of any group or nation, who happen, regardless of any behavior on their part, to be less affluent than Anglo-Americans.
One major reason for our "crisis of conscience" is that we increasingly exploit the poverty of such nations. Were that not so, I suspect that we would likely maintain that characteristically Victorian perspective that the Third World can bloody well pull itself up by its own bootstraps if they want to live by our standards of wealth. We feel responsible because we have found ourselves to be either tacitly or actively complicit in the factors that tend to sustain Third or Second world circumstances outside the West.
In targeting our wealth the plutocrats are secretly plotting to steal our freedom, because our freedom is a power which is dangerous to their authority.
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 80
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
MA
I just posted a lengthy response to your rather insightful post only to find that I had been logged f****g well out of EZboard.
I'll post my response in condensed form, who knows, maybe it wont be as boring!
Modern terrorists tend to be middle-class Muslims not sub-Saharan Africans or Indian Dalits.
Regional global inequalities in wealth should be expected when there are radical global differences in culture.
The IMF the World Bank and Western Corporations interacted with Eastern Asia in exactly the same way as they did Africa. East Asian economic development has been rapid and astonishing. It is logical therefore to attribute economic differences to regional modalities of culture rather than exploitative interventionism.
If this is wrong Malaysia, China, South Korea etc., must owe their economic growth to the exploitation of some other region. Why is no one making this claim? Where is this region?
North Korea has rejected Western trading terms and is not suffering from capitalist "exploitation". North Korea has one of the lowest standards of living in the world, as does Cuba.
The idea that Western affluence is the creation of the exploitation of Africans is intended to lead to an acceptance of a decline in standards of living. The realities of this will be less social welfare, longer working days and weeks and declining wages. Anyone who complains will just get called a greedy, lazy Westerner. Does no one see this beginning to happen? Welcome to the new world order, and you are welcome to it too!
The poverty of Africa is being used to dissolve the autonomy and affluence of Western citizens to consolidate the hegemony of a nascent trans-national elite, who themselves ultimately care not a pixel about starving Africans.
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 343
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
"What will happen when it finally dawns on all those people in the Third World that current First World Standards are unreachable fo them, and that the First World refuses to abandon those standards itself?"
Nothing like you think. No revolution, no uprising of the oppressed masses. Just more commercialism, striving for any mobility that is possible.
I think you guys underestimate the power of apathy and lack of momentum.
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 3552 Location: NJ
Thanks: 1 Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
Quote:"If there was hope, it must lie in the proles because only there, in those swarming disregarded masses, 85 percent of the population of Oceania, could the force to destroy the Party ever be generated... The proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength, would have no need to conspire. They needed only to rise up and shake themselves like a horse shaking off flies... Surely sooner or later it must occur to them to do it?"
...
Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.
~ George Orwell aka Winston Smith
Mr. P.
The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"
I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 3552 Location: NJ
Thanks: 1 Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
Quote:We are encouraged to pour our wealth away, but in reality our per-capita affluence in the West is a bi-product of our greater individual freedoms, hard won over many century's of struggle. In targeting our wealth the plutocrats are secretly plotting to steal our freedom, because our freedom is a power which is dangerous to their authority.
MAN I wish I had some of that "wealth" that we are swimming in?
What is wealth. What is the formula that an American should fit into in order to be considered part of the wealthy crew? Is it just income level? Is it Income - debt carried?
Our consumption is funded by over-extending our finances and our family finances until we are hopelessly in debt. Most people are given a false sense of wealth, then fight side by side with those that make us feel we are part of the gang.
Most people who complain about paying high taxes and gaining a substantial savings from tax cuts do not actually save much at all when it comes down to it. I explained this to a friend and showed numbers and this person still swore by the tax cut that saved him $200 for one year. I would gladly part with $200 a year if that money would be used wisely. That is the key phrase.
Sorry...that was a tangent was'nt it?
Mr. P.
The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.
The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"
I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 80
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender:
Re: *** Chapter 16 ***
Agree with your sentiments MrP. I think that we are being sold a spurious definition of wealth. Wealth is being promoted as a surfeit of material possessions. I think that true wealth is freedom from financial worry.
Status in society was once governed by the much maligned concept of respectability. Being fair, self-sufficient and honest made you respected. Now status is measured by gaudy displays of "designer" products and "lifestyle choices".
Once you buy out of this paradigm you can do some serious downsizing. This way I can pretend to myself that I'm an economic lone-wolf, subverting the establishment and "stickin it to the man", whereas the truth is that I'm probably just a tight fisted Calvinist, ha,ha!
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.
Support BookTalk.org
BookTalk.org is being upgraded to a totally new design. This upgrade is expensive. Any support would be VERY helpful! See who supports us.
Make a donation
PEOPLE PAYING FOR OUR UPGRADE:
• afv - $10 May
• LevV - $50 March
• Dexter - $10 March
• supernova38 - $25 March
• Oblivion - $20 March
• jheimlich - $20 February
• Robert Tulip - $50 February
• giselle - $50 January
Children here need worming
regularly, and I think I
need to buy more worming
tablets, so while my friends
sit on the beach, I have to
catch bush taxis up to the… more
The children have a long way
to walk to the nearest primary
school. At the moment they are
in temporary accommodation,
with volunteer teachers. There
is community land available,
a… more
The price of The 12th Disciple
has been updated to $3.99 for
Kindle readers. The book is
still available for free to
borrow for Amazon Prime
members. To be
competitive, and s… more
The 12th Disciple has been
reviewed by two different
people on Amazon. They
purchased the Kindle edition;
one in the US, one in the
UK. One review was
5-stars (US) and the oth… more
I'd like to say I've
been reading Harry Potter
since the day the world renown
series appeared on the
scene. Unfortunately,
the truth is I began reading
Harry Potter… more
Easter teaches many of us the
importance of redemption and
resurrection. Regardless of
what faith people follow, the
story of Jesus Christ has been
told in many languages in many
c… more
Our Book Talk will begin on
Wednesday, May 2nd. I look
forward to hearing about your
learning and classroom
experiences with Number Talks
as it all unfolds...
NONOPPOSITIONAL NONVIOLENCE
“The minute you conquer the
fear of death, at that moment
you are free. I submit to you
that if a man hasnÂ’t
discovered something that he
will die f… more
Yesterday, when I went to feed
Jeni the donkey, I noticed
swarms of bees entering
EbrimaÂ’s house through the
cracks in the door. We both
had a look, but he didnÂ’t
open his door… more
Whether you want to implement
number talks but are unsure of
how to begin or have
experience but want more
guidance in crafting
purposeful problems, this
dynamic multimedia resourc… more
Do you feel entitled? For
years I have listened to and,
in some instances, complained
that some people in America
feel entitled. For years I
have watched as these people
are portra… more
On Fat Tuesday and Ash
Wednesday of 2012, The 12th
Disciple was free to Kindle
users on both days. In all,
about 550 worldwide Kindle
users downloaded a copy of the
book.
‘Sacred Are the Brave’ a
collection of short stories
about the nonviolent
revolutions 1986-1989 is now
available in Kindle. Each of
the nine stories has
characters who are just
… more
The Weekend TrippersÂ’ is the
true story of Rfn Ted Taylor
and his part in the heroic
last stand in Calais May 1940.
The Weekend Trippers is based
on TedÂ’s diaries written at
the… more
Tell your friends when to meet you in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.
If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.
BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.
Tweet This Topic
at: 6/18/05 3:17 pm
