Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:00 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
Ch. 9: Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Comandante Literario Supreme w/ Cheese

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2857
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 421
Thanked: 331 times in 252 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post Ch. 9: Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong
Ch. 9: Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong


Please use this thread for discussing this chapter.



Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:23 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thread Flintstone

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 887
Thanks: 122
Thanked: 191 times in 155 posts
Gender: None specified

Post war stories
The structure of this novel is interesting. A few chapters back, O'Brien talked about writing "true" war stories and then spent the next 4 chapters telling the stories of individuals in his company. Is he asking us if we believe these are 'true' war stories?

I found the story of Mary Anne quite compelling; the innocent high school girl who lands in Vietnam and ends up on operations with the Greenies and then goes 'native', disappears and possibly switches sides. Of the stories told, this one is the most incredible, in my view, yet we are asked to believe that it is true. Is it a true war story? Is this about her self-discovery? Is it symbolic of America's coming of age or finding itself ... or perhaps losing itself in Vietnam?

In these chapters, he is building up to his own story about the man he killed and at that point the truth takes on a deep, personal meaning that goes beyond the abstract meaning of truth in the preceding chapters. I think he is so concerned with truth when it comes to killing this man that he wants to drill down and question every aspect over and over and try to find an adequate answer and he is still doing this many years after the war ended.



Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:34 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Better Thread Count than Your Best Linens

Silver Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 626
Thanks: 42
Thanked: 72 times in 56 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
I did need to think about this chapter for a couple days because I wasn't quite sure what to make of it.
Quote:
this one is the most incredible, in my view, yet we are asked to believe that it is true. Is it a true war story?




I agree that this one is the most unbelievable if we are trying to see these as factual stories. O'Brien talks about the stories being the most difficult to believe are probably true and the ones that we can believe probably are not. But is he talking just figuratively? Or riddles?
This story could be about the loss of innocence, or if we believe that the girlfriend represent what was left behind, home, security, love, dreams, perhaps this story is about the loss of the home that the soldiers can never go back to it because innocence is gone.



Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:33 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Comandante Literario Supreme w/ Cheese

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2857
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 421
Thanked: 331 times in 252 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post 
I have been wondering about this vignette since I read it. When I read O'Briens: the true war stories are the ones that are hardest to believe -- I took it straight. From my own experience, the real things that happen are sometimes the hardest to believe. I also remember thinking that he was trying to capture the sense that sometimes the truth is so painful, embarrassing, so not the way we wanted or expected that etc.. that when we tell the story if that aspect is not in the story it's not "the truth" and the stories that have the hardest stuff in it are most likely to be true. Real events are so mixed up with what is going on -- who is doing what, what each person's motivation is, what each person experiences, all this and more -- all the conflicting and contradictory emotions that happen all at once. Like feeling relieved and sad when something bad happens or wishing something bad would happen so that you have an excuse to get or do or having something you want -- because to just take it or do it would be wrong.

Now, I am less sure of what he was meaning to say.


_________________
"may my mind stroll about hungry and fearless and thirsty and supple"
- e.e. cummings


Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:00 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Comandante Literario Supreme w/ Cheese

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2857
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 421
Thanked: 331 times in 252 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: war stories
giselle wrote:

I found the story of Mary Anne quite compelling; the innocent high school girl who lands in Vietnam and ends up on operations with the Greenies and then goes 'native', disappears and possibly switches sides. Of the stories told, this one is the most incredible, in my view, yet we are asked to believe that it is true. Is it a true war story? Is this about her self-discovery? Is it symbolic of America's coming of age or finding itself ... or perhaps losing itself in Vietnam?


I feel pretty sure about one aspect of this chapter and the character, Mary Anne and that is the symbolism of loss of innocence. The whole concept of "going native" is about loosing oneself; an extreme response to getting a glimpse behind the curtain of ones own culture and realizing it is no more "true" or "real" or "right" than any other "culture". In fact, specific cultural practices have no absolute rightness. It is the practicing of cultural practices that is important. Humm, that last sentence -- almost sounds like it doesn't make sense, but I think it does.


_________________
"may my mind stroll about hungry and fearless and thirsty and supple"
- e.e. cummings


Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:13 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Internet Sage

Silver Contributor

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 340
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA, Earth.
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 6 times in 2 posts
Gender: Female

Post 
Here's one possibility that occurred to me on reading this chapter (which was a while ago, and I don't have the book with me now; sorry for any ensuing vagueness). The story can be interpreted as a forbidden-wish-and-horror-to-see-what-one-has-wished-for-come-true story.

The idea of a nice, clean, wholesome, blond, Mary Anne-ish Girl Next Door, with whom one had hoped to make a life since going to school together, is something the men in the war hang onto and wish they could have with them. They want the relatedness, the loved ones from home to be with them. The soldier who hangs onto his ex-girlfriend's picture and looks for it when it is lost while everyone else is looking for the corpse of their friend in the mud is an example; the obsession the commanding officer has for thinking about his girlfriend and his guilt at being distracted by that when the druggy soldier is killed near the beginning of the book is another. There is also a hopelessness about trying to tell people at home about what happened, how it felt, what it meant, ranging from the "dumb cooze" section, to how Tim "lies" to his daughter about whether or not he has killed someone, then obscures whether he is lying to her or to us, to the despair his character driving around and around the lake on the 4th of July feels about talking to his father, even though his father is also a veteran. But what if the strongest, most physical form of this desire were thoroughly indulged? What if Mary Anne came to Vietnam? This is a horror story about the horror of that fulfilled wish.

Also, toward the end, the character narrating the chapter (not O'Brien's) claims it is a kind of parable of moral parity between the genders: women would be like the "worst" of soldiers if they had to go to war in Vietnam as men did; the hopes or claims about the difference women would make as politicians are myths, see?

All I can say to that is, women do live in the same contexts as men, all the time. There are lots of women in Vietnam without Mary Anne ever having to go there. And how do they act? How do American soldiers treat them and see them? Women have lived through all kinds of wars and every day they live lives that are on the whole full of more violence and atrocity than a man sees if he doesn't go to war. All this generally remains secret because crazed male abusers see it as assault on them if a woman they are brutalizing says, "Ouch." Men bring their wars into women's homes, then pretend: those aren't women, these aren't homes or this is not abuse. Like men, women are individual people, certainly. There could possibly have existed a woman something like Mary Anne at some time. Women are capable of anything, like men. On the whole, we behave differently from men in some respects, expression of anger, aggression and dominance being one of them. This is true, regardless of the reasons for it and the fictionalized claims of truth in the chapter doesn't alter that fact.

Also, Mary Anne does not "go native." She preys upon the Vietnamese with the Greenies and becomes even worse than the male Green Berets are. The idea that it is Vietnam, the place, that is the source of the "wild," intensely vicious and bloody craziness of the war is a racist projection present or recorded in places throughout the text. This is not to say you are a racist for saying she "goes native," nor that Tim O'Brien is a racist, nor even that the character Mary Anne is a racist for cutting out and wearing the tongues of people of another race and saying it's because of their country which she loves, understands and belongs in. It is simply to say this is a record of generalized, extreme and minimized racism in the form of basically insane violence against real humans who personally did not provoke it, portrayed as such things always are, to be otherwise, as if such a thing could ever have reasons and be okay. O'Brien shows that he knows it is not the land itself that is provoking of violence and insanity of the kind Mary Anne engages in, as do the people in the story about the listening post or whatever it was called, where they lose control just listening to the jungle; O'Brien shows he knows this in the chapter where he goes back with his daughter to look at the place where his friend drowned in the mud and it is calm, peaceful, unremarkable -- just as Vietnam is when there is no war there. Yet he shows he is a man on whom nothing is lost and who is willing to represent what he sees, even when it is racist, by recording the projections onto Vietnam, the brutalizations. There may be a similar attempt at detached "mapping" of how the male psyche (in the form of the narrating character with the Mary Anne story) projects, about women and the eerie scariness of the brutal feminine, in the Mary Anne chapter.


_________________
"Where can I find a man who has forgotten the words so that I can talk with him?"
-- Chuang-Tzu (c. 200 B.C.E.)
as quoted by Robert A. Burton


Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:42 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Better Thread Count than Your Best Linens

Silver Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 626
Thanks: 42
Thanked: 72 times in 56 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
GR9
Quote:
Yet he shows he is a man on whom nothing is lost and who is willing to represent what he sees, even when it is racist, by recording the projections onto Vietnam, the brutalizations. There may be a similar attempt at detached "mapping" of how the male psyche (in the form of the narrating character with the Mary Anne story) projects, about women and the eerie scariness of the brutal feminine, in the Mary Anne chapter.


I have read these last few lines a couple times and cannot really understand what you are meaning here. This could be because I have not read the chapter where Tim goes back to Vietnam with his daughter. What do you mean by 'detached mapping' ? When you say that Tim is recording the projections onto Vietnam, do you mean he is blaming Vietnam or the people or making Vietnam look bad? How is what he is doing racist?



Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:14 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Internet Sage

Silver Contributor

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 340
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA, Earth.
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 6 times in 2 posts
Gender: Female

Post 
realiz wrote:

Quote:
What do you mean by 'detached mapping' ?


I mean, just recording "the lay of the land" of the American imagination about Vietnam, or of the male imagination about women. I mean that he isn't saying that these objects are this way or even that he sees them this way (his source for the Mary Anne story is not even his own fictional character but another. less reliable narrator/character). He seems to me to show that there is a strong envisioning of these objects in this light in the American/male psyche at large.

Quote:
When you say that Tim is recording the projections onto Vietnam, do you mean he is blaming Vietnam or the people or making Vietnam look bad?
No. A "projection" is a perception of some other to be like a part of yourself in your symbolic worldview rather than as it is. I think O'Brien is recording the projections about Vietnam as a hostile, crazy-making landscape in this story and in the listening post story. When he goes back and visits, it's just a normal place.

Quote:
How is what he is doing racist?
I thought I said I didn't think he was being racist. I think there is a lot of racism on the part of the characters recorded almost steadily throughout. Look carefully and see if you don't see some. I mean, what's a "dink?"


_________________
"Where can I find a man who has forgotten the words so that I can talk with him?"
-- Chuang-Tzu (c. 200 B.C.E.)
as quoted by Robert A. Burton


Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:59 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thread Flintstone

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 887
Thanks: 122
Thanked: 191 times in 155 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
There is some really interesting discussion going on here.

I feel the Vietnam war was very much about projection of American values and other foreign values and extremely limited recognition of Vietnamese people or values. This is essentially a colonialistic worldview and an important element in justifying occupation and the war.

O'Brien's novel is told entirely from the American soldier perspective and voice. There is no Vietnamese voice that I recall until after the war when Tim returns with his daughter to the Field. A Vietnamese farmer attempts some form of communication by lifting a shovel over his head, but even 20 years after the war the Vietnamese voice is nearly mute.

I think this is the story that O'Brien wanted to tell. He wants the reader to experience the projection of America onto Vietnamese soil and into Vietnamese society and experience the Western ethnocentricity of that projection and, I think, the racism inherent in that projection.

I found Tim's daughter a very compelling character. I feel for her as she struggles to reclaim her Dad from his preoccupation with the ghosts of the war.



Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:46 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Better Thread Count than Your Best Linens

Silver Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 626
Thanks: 42
Thanked: 72 times in 56 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
GR9
Quote:
The idea that it is Vietnam, the place, that is the source of the "wild," intensely vicious and bloody craziness of the war is a racist projection present or recorded in places throughout the text.


OK. I read it all again and now I am beginning to understand what you are tying to say and which chapters you are referring to when you say this. I read it more as a state of mind of the soldiers themselves than a projection of the land. Also, I can't see O'Brien as detached, as he is written himself in a very emotionally part of all that happens.

Giselle
Quote:
There is no Vietnamese voice

The chapter where Tim shoots the soldier very much showed us the vietnamese as real people, with feelings, dreams, families, and hopes just as the Americans. I have not finished the book yet, but I have so far not got the feeling that this book is racist. Yes, racism existed there when this happened, but we are seeing the folly of it through this book. The Americans should not have been there, did not belong there, it was futile and damaging to all, it made not sense, this message is not racist.
[/quote]



Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:13 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thread Flintstone

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 887
Thanks: 122
Thanked: 191 times in 155 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
Quote:
There is no Vietnamese voice


realiz wrote:

The chapter where Tim shoots the soldier very much showed us the vietnamese as real people, with feelings, dreams, families, and hopes just as the Americans. I have not finished the book yet, but I have so far not got the feeling that this book is racist. Yes, racism existed there when this happened, but we are seeing the folly of it through this book. The Americans should not have been there, did not belong there, it was futile and damaging to all, it made not sense, this message is not racist.
[/quote][/quote]


Yes, this incident does portray the Vietnamese as real people, no question, and Tim's feelings are obviously genuine, but it stops short of giving them any real voice. The perspective of this incident is Tim's and the other soldiers. I think this is deliberate on O'Brien's part.

For comparison, does Lolita have a voice? I think that is deliberate on the author's part too. We are forced to see almost everything through Humbert's eyes and this heightens the perception of Humbert's control and his portrayal of Lolita and the other characters.

I'm not suggesting that Tim is racist or that the book is racist. I'm suggesting that projection of American (and Soviet) colonialism is inferred by the way the book is written, in particular, by the narrators perspective. I think O'Brien is trying to shed light on this colonialism and within that colonialism are racist views. The book itself is not racist, actually on the contrary, O'Brien's message exposes colonialism/racism for what it is and I find it particularly interesting for that reason.



Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:56 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Better Thread Count than Your Best Linens

Silver Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 626
Thanks: 42
Thanked: 72 times in 56 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
Quote:
I'm suggesting that projection of American (and Soviet) colonialism is inferred by the way the book is written, in particular, by the narrators perspective. I think O'Brien is trying to shed light on this colonialism and within that colonialism are racist views.


I think I am really missing something in this book as I have read it much more on an individual basis and the men themselves affected by the war rather on a bigger political statement on colonialism or imperialism (by the way...what is the difference, as I thought that the term would be imperialism rather than colonialism). Maybe I'd better do some rereading.



Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:59 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thread Flintstone

Platinum Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 887
Thanks: 122
Thanked: 191 times in 155 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
I think this book is worth rereading, I'm going to reread a few sections, including this chapter, because the personal story is compelling and i have missed some of this.

Perhaps the hallmark of a great novel is that it can be read in different ways, with different interpretations, recognizing different layers, and viewed through different lenses. your lens, the personal story, is just as valid as the wider political story, which is my lens, although i recognize the personal story too.

there is a tremendous personal story here but i think there is also a wider political commentary. maybe i see it this way because, as the Vietnam war was ending in the early 1970's this was an issue that caught my attention, so i pick up O'Brien's emphasis on politics. i remember reading about it in Time and Newsweek magazines and seeing pictures on TV that shocked that "young me". until then, i had no idea that people or countries could do bloodthirsty stuff like this. later in the 70's we followed other stories, like the Watergate wiretapping , which taught us that one should never believe what politicians say .... thank you Richard Nixon.

O'Brien's genius, i think, goes beyond this ... beyond the standard narrative technique, to metanarrative. he writes about telling the story, the story of the story (how to tell a war story), he writes about truth in a world influenced by postmodernism where absolute standards disappear and subjectivity rules. one doesn't have to agree with this postmodern worldview, but i think O'Brien does an admirable job of leaving behind the constraints of the modernist narrative and explores some new turf.

on colonialism and imperialism, yes one could use the latter term. i prefer the former though .. because colonialism captures the basic mentality that prevailed at the time, principally the projection of the values of the colonizer onto the colonized. imperialism, including combat over territory and domination of countries like vietnam stemmed from that basic colonialistic attitude. i think this terminology is just a matter of preference.



Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:13 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Better Thread Count than Your Best Linens

Silver Contributor

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 626
Thanks: 42
Thanked: 72 times in 56 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
I'm going to move my reply to the final chapter of the book because I have finished it now and we seem to be discussing the the whole story now.



Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:36 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Genius


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 761
Thanks: 3
Thanked: 13 times in 12 posts
Gender: None specified

Post 
Although it's a very intriguing tale, I don't think the story about Mary Anne is true.



Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:56 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

Recent Posts 
III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:25 pm

Interbane

New short horror novel series

Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:51 pm

hopton2000

Kevin Peter's Book Reviews

Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:25 am

KevinPeterKP

Hey I got a new book

Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:42 am

mcrosbie

Got Rilke?

Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:24 pm

Rachbot

Got Rilke?

Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:18 pm

Rachbot

Radical Empiricism

Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:46 pm

Interbane

Express my thoughts

Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:10 pm

NikolaidisM

The Infinite Evolution - Conversion

Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:13 pm

spencercade

Carrier on Free Will

Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:56 pm

Dexter


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books

Books by New Authors



Booktalk.org on Facebook 



BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Oliver Twist - by Charles DickensSense and Goodness Without God - by Richard CarrierFrankenstein - by Mary ShelleyThe Big Questions - by Simon BlackburnScience Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2014. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank