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That strong sense of agnosticism is distinctly different. You're speaking of knowing the nature of god, where his existence is never questioned, only our ability to comprehend him.
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Interbane: Yes, the language is a bit overblown. Sometimes you have to stress a point to make a point I think precisely the opposite is true, if by "stress" you mean using such strongly emotive language. That doesn't really stress your point, but will make the point seem to a reader to be other than what you might intend. For someone as attached to philosophy as you are, I would think that priority one would be to reduce emotional distortion as much as possible.
It's merely convenient that the three major monotheisms are the ones with the most memetically contagious features. So referencing them by their single god characteristic is linguistically economical Ever think why these monotheisms spread beyond the level of tribes and single cultures? You again seem to grant these notions some objective status divorced from the creating and mediating power of human minds. Aren't you coming perilously close to supernaturalism? This notion of "memetic contagion" lacks all recognition of the fact that religious ideas, like all ideas centered in the emotions, are continually reworked and modified within individuals and social groups. This analogy of viral contagion is crude, merely a scientific metaphor, and ignores psychology. The point you are missing is that, whether we like it or not, monotheisms were readily accepted, readily welcomed, by a large percentage of human beings. To say that indoctrination accounts for this spread of religion is a baldly inadequate explanation. Yes, these ideas are "sticky." But WHY are they sticky?
And is it only the power or success of monotheism that makes it more objectionable than, say, polytheistic Hinduism (pretty "successful" in its own right)?[/i]
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DWill: "I think precisely the opposite is true, if by "stress" you mean using such strongly emotive language."
No, by "stress", I mean using languange that is of higher value in the range of the concept I'm describing. If someone says a mountain is short, I'd say the mountain is indescribably tall to counter their misunderstanding. Our agreement lies in the middle, which is a good approximation to the truth. If the greater conceptual value of the term is emotionally loaded as well, perhaps that is precisely why the truth isn't seen more clearly by the believers. I'm not sure if calling religion memetically contagious is even stretching the truth. It rings very true in my brain.
DWill: "You again seem to grant these notions some objective status divorced from the creating and mediating power of human minds."
Then what I seem to do is different from my understanding of the subject. In turn I believe you're misunderstanding me.
DWill: "This notion of "memetic contagion" lacks all recognition of the fact that religious ideas, like all ideas centered in the emotions, are continually reworked and modified within individuals and social groups."
I think in some of the ideas I present, you fail to read between the lines. It takes effort on the reader's part to understand. I recognize the dynamic nature of religious ideas. The majority of a belief system may change over time, but as long as a few key ingredients remain the same, the system will retain is't memetical features.
DWill: "This analogy of viral contagion is crude, merely a scientific metaphor, and ignores psychology."
It is an analogy after all. Closer to home is the description of memetically contagious, different than without the adjective. Even this falls short of being a philosophical intuition pump, though with the adjective it then does not ignore psychology. It's a shorthand descriptive phrase, and we can delve into the details if you'd like. I think discussing a book on memetics would be appropriate and enjoyable. Pick one if you'd like, I'll order it from Amazon.
DWill: "But WHY are they sticky?"
YES! This question is key. It deserves it's own thread, but I'm too lazy to create one right now.
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DWill:
But WHY are they sticky?"
Interbane: YES! This question is key. It deserves it's (sic) own thread, but I'm too lazy to create one right now.
I had thought that I answered the question very generally, at least. The ideas are sticky because they obviously are products of human minds in the first place, and they correspond with leanings that come naturally with human cognition. We'd have to attribute the stickiness to people and not the ideas, really (or should I say "blame" the stickiness on people?)
And speaking of lazy, this might be part of my problem in understanding you...but should this entail so much work?
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DWill: "The ideas are sticky because they obviously are products of human minds in the first place, and they correspond with leanings that come naturally with human cognition."
Those aren't characteristics that contribute to stickiness. Ease of assimilation perhaps, but not stickiness. The stickiness is actually found within the ideas themselves. The major one is heaven and hell coupled with lack of belief resulting in being sent to hell. Morality being given to us by God is another. We have a soul that was given to us by God. Prayer... some people have listed thousands of consort memes. Each is it's own topic of debate, but then the subject of memetically contagious religions is also huge.
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