Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BLOGS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed May 23, 2012 1:08 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reads During Parties

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3892
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689
Thanked: 561 times in 453 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Wright starts off the chapter quoting a passage from 1 Kings:
"And he said, "Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD." And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake;
[12] and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice. "
Wright says the passage is often cited as a marking a new epoch in the history of religion. God is no longer within the forces of nature but outside of them. Wright thinks that, just as animistic religion created a base for science, monotheism specifically facilitated the emergence of scientific investigation. This example shows why Wright pleases nobody entirely with this book. He both takes away from and credits religion. To me, he makes sense in this instance. If we hold that cultural evolution closely parallels physical evolution, we seem to almost have to grant that later forms owe much to earlier ones.

Wright then points out that this new transcendent, hidden, or secret god is not, however, a moral god in the modern sense. God orders the slaughter of every Baal worshiper in the area. This is still a tribal god, however far developed relative to naturalistic gods. The vengeful, war-loving God of the OT represents the least favorite aspect of the Bible for many people. Just think of all those people murdered on his command. Only, it never really happened, Wright says, so we can feel a little better overall. The reason we can say it never happened is archaeological evidence showing that there was never any great invasion of Canaan by Jews who had been held in captivity in Egypt. That is a Bible legend. The Israelites actually developed from within Canaan. It is an evolutionary picture, not one of sudden takeover of Canaan by Israelites.



Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:12 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Part I

Wright Page 123; Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34

34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, ' I am the Son of God'?

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

Quote:
This passage has been the object of much discussion, commentary, and debate among those with differing views about the Deity of Christ. Some claim that Jesus denies that He is God, taking for Himself the lesser title "Son of God." Others argue that Jesus is asserting that He is God, co-equal with His Father. Still others say that Jesus is neither affirming nor denying His Deity, but rather is answering the specific charge of blasphemy (v. 33).

Which of these views, if any, is correct?

To answer this question, there are several rather complex issues to unravel.
First, we must look to the context. What has Jesus just asserted that roused the Jews to such anger that they would accuse Him of blasphemy? What does He say following this passage? Next, we must determine the meaning of the Old Testament verse Jesus is quoting in His defense. Then we must understand why Jesus quotes this passage - what is it about this passage that counters the accusation of blasphemy? Finally, we must put these pieces together to reconstruct Jesus' argument and place it in context with what precedes and follows.

Context
This pericope begins with the Jews gathering around Jesus in the Temple portico, asking Him to tell them in plain terms if He is the Messiah (v. 24). Jesus answers by giving two reasons they should already know the answer to this question: His words and His works (v. 25). Jesus says that the reason they do not know He is the Messiah is not because He has failed to speak clearly or to manifest who He truly is through His miracles, but because they lack faith (vv. 25 - 26). Jesus says that His sheep know Him and hear His voice, but the Jews are not His sheep (vv. 26 - 27). To this point, while Jesus may well have provoked his listeners to anger, there is nothing in what He has said that warrants the charge of blasphemy. But then Jesus says, "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish" (v. 28). Here Jesus claims for Himself the Divine prerogative of granting life to His sheep. The Jews knew that only YHWH gives life (Deut. 32:39), let alone eternal life. Then Jesus equates His power to keep His sheep firmly in hand with His Father's power to do the same thing (vv. 28 - 29). The Jews knew that the Father was "greater than all," but when Jesus said that He had the same power to preserve His sheep as His Father has, this was a clear claim to equality with God. Jesus further drives the point home with His assertion that He and His Father are "one" (v. 30). It is at this point - and with good reason, from their perspective as unbelievers - that the Jews prepare to stone Jesus. Jesus immediately challenges them by returning to one of the two reasons He has given for making clear that He is the Messiah - His works: "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning me?" (v. 32). This is not an evasive response - and it does not follow that Jesus' subsequent response will be evasive, either. The Jews reply that they are not stoning Him for His works, but for claiming to be God, which is blasphemy, according to their Law (v. 33).

Some have argued that the Jews are accusing Jesus of nothing more than being "a god," on the basis that the Greek word theos ("God") lacks the article in this verse and on Jesus' use of Psalm 82 (see below). While many nouns without the article in Greek are indefinite, many others are not. Context, once again, is our sure guide for determining meaning. If the Jews believed that "a god" could grant eternal life or was equal to the Father in the power to preserve the Sheep, there might be some warrant for theos in this verse being rendered "a god." But this is manifestly not the case; while some might be called "gods," in the OT, none were ever said to have Divine powers such as these. Further, the Law against blasphemy did not pertain to those claiming to be 'a god,' but was specific to defaming the name of YHWH (Lev. 24:16), which any man did who claimed to be God or equated his power with YHWH's power. The Jews would be risking their lives if they were to stone Jesus on the grounds of the Temple for anything other than a Law clearly defined in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Immediately after quoting Psalm 82 in His defense, Jesus again returns to the testimony of His works (vv. 37 - 38). Jesus then repeats what He has previously asserted in slightly different words: "The Father is in Me and I in the Father." This further appeal to an intimate relationship in which the Father's intimacy with the Son is no less than the Son's intimacy with the Father incites the Jews beyond talking and Jesus must elude them and flee. It may be said here that if Jesus' appeal to Psalm 82 is meant as nothing more than an answer to the charge of blasphemy, as some commentators allege, He has completely undermined His defense with new claims of unity and equality with His Father. It would seem untenable, given that He knew the hearts of his accusers, that Jesus would provoke the Jews with such a statement, unless it was a logical extension of what He has just said.

The Meaning of Psalm 82
The words quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 are from Psalm 82:6. The pertinent section reads as follows:

I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes."
There has been much debate about whom "you" refers. There are three common suggestions: 1) Angelic beings; 2) the Children of Israel at Sinai when they received the Law; 3) human judges or rulers who have judged unjustly. Many who argue that ancient Israel practiced a form of polytheism or henotheism argue for option #1. They see this verse preserving an old tradition in which the pagan gods are judged by YHWH. The problem with this view is that Jesus' appeal to this verse presupposes that it refers to human beings; if it refers to angels, the Jews could rightly ignore Jesus' defense, for He is not an angel claiming the title "God," but a man (v. 33). Jerome Neyrey makes an interesting case for option #2 ("I Said Ye Are Gods:" Psalm 82:6 and John 10). Neyrey argues that extra-Biblical Jewish literature from shortly after the time of Christ indicates that the Jews thought that the Children of Israel had, in a sense, become "gods" when they received the Law. However, they almost immediately fell into idolatry and lost their divine status. The chief problem I see with Neyrey's otherwise provocative article is that there is simply no example of the Israelites being called "gods" in the Bible, and Jesus' argument is based specifically on Scripture which "cannot be broken." In my view, Jesus' reference is unlikely, on the one hand, to rely on Psalm 82, and on the other, on a Midrashic interpretation of it. Option #3 is, on the whole, the most likely. In the immediate context, the "sons of the Most High" are said to judge, albeit unjustly (v. 2). There is probable Biblical precedent for calling human judges "gods" (Exodus 22:8, 9; Judges 5:8,9). The judges were "gods" in the sense that the "word of God came" to them as a Divine commission to perform a duty on earth that ultimately belongs only to God. The judges, then, parallel Jesus - though to a lesser degree; for He received a Divine commission par excellence and every work He does is that of the Father (cf., 5:19ff).

Jesus' Use of Psalm 821
There are two important points to raise when considering why Jesus quotes this particular Psalm in His defense: 1) The Jews base their charge of blasphemy on what they see as Jesus' self-proclamation of Deity: "You being a man make yourself out to be God" (v. 33); and 2) Jesus' use of Psalm 82 must be consistent with the overall answer that Jesus is giving the Jews to their challenge to say "plainly" whether He is the Messiah (v. 24).
Regarding the first point, we may say that Jesus' use of Psalm 82 refutes the foundation of the Jews' accusation. The judges in Psalm 82 do not "make themselves" gods, but rather the divine title is given to them by God, on the basis of their commission ("to whom the Word of God came."). In affirming that He is the Messiah, Jesus uses this general principle to declare that His divine title ("the Son of God") was not of His own proclamation, but comes as the result of the Father's commission ("sanctified and sent into the World;" cf., Mark 1:11; Luke3:22).

Regarding the second point, Jesus cannot be simply using an ad hominem argument to evade the charge of blasphemy2 because both before and after verses 34 - 36, He is claiming far more than merely being "a god" in the sense the Judges were "gods." The judges in Psalm 82 are not said to grant eternal life to their followers, nor to be equal to the Father in their power to hold them fast. If Jesus were making an ad hominem argument, He would be essentially saying, "You don't know your own Scriptures - I am simply calling myself 'the Son of God' in the same way God calls the judges in Psalm 82 'gods' and 'sons of the Most High.'" The Jews could simply respond, "We know what God called the judges - but you are not claiming to be 'a god' like the judges - you are claiming to be far more than they! You have claimed a blasphemous unity with God unlike any exampled in our Scriptures, let alone Psalm 82!"

The same can be said of Jesus' title, "Son of God." If Jesus meant to say that His divine title is less than the judges' title (that is, that 'Son of God' is a less exalted title than "a god"), the Jews could rightly reject His answer as equivocation. Jesus is defending His statements prior to verse 34. Thus, "Son of God" must be viewed as meaning the same thing as One who grants eternal life, who holds His sheep in a grip as powerful as His Father's, and who is One with the Father. Indeed, Jesus knew well what the Jews would make of this title - the Jews had accused Him before of using this title to make Himself "equal" with God (5:18). Jesus' subsequent statement, which again repeats His claim to profound unity with His Father, and which the Jews understand as confirming their accusation, makes clear that Jesus is using Psalm 82 to establish the Biblical basis for the exclusive claims He is making.
There is, of course, no "Biblical basis" in the OT for the specific divine title, "The Son of God," nor for the specific claims Jesus is making for Himself. The judges of Psalm 82 are called "gods" on far less merit than Jesus. Jesus is using Psalm 82 to establish a general principle - namely, that it is not blasphemous for one with a divine commission to be called by a divine title. Having established this point beyond dispute ("the Scripture cannot be broken"), He then establishes the basis for His unique divine title in His correspondingly higher divine commission ("whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world"). Jesus' title and claims are, therefore, included within the general principle, and He cannot legitimately be accused of blasphemy.

The Argument in Context
The Jews have asked Jesus to plainly say if He is the Messiah. We may summarize His response as follows:"You should already know the answer to this question: My words and my works tell you plainly who I am. The reason you don't know who I am is because you do not believe. My sheep hear my voice and know me, but you are not my sheep. I grant eternal life to my sheep, and no one can snatch from my hand those that the Father gives me. My Father is greater than all and no one can snatch my sheep from my Father's hand - my Father and I are One!"At this point, the Jews understand that Jesus is making exclusive claims of equality with God, which (unless true!) are blasphemous. Jesus asks which works He has done that warrant the charge of blasphemy. The Jews reply that they are not stoning Him for His works, but for the words He has just spoken. Jesus replies as follows:
"The Scripture says that God calls the judges in Psalm 82 'gods' on the basis of their divine commission. Thus, since the Scripture cannot be wrong, it is not blasphemy for one with a divine commission to have a divine title. I do not have a commission like the judges; I have an exclusive commission from my Father, for He set me apart and sent me into the world - to do the works you have seen, to say the words I have said, to grant eternal life to my sheep, to hold them fast in the same way my Father does, for He and I are One. Therefore, I have not committed blasphemy! But even if you persist in denying my words, you should believe on the basis of my works, for they prove that the Father is in Me in the same way I am in Him: we are One!"

The Jews, of course, do not believe Jesus - not because they misunderstand Him (such would suggest that Jesus was ineffective in communicating His identity, or was being consciously deceptive) - but because they lack faith. They are not Jesus' sheep, as He has said. Thus, their rejection of Him lies in denial and self-deception, the root cause of all who reject God and His Christ (Romans 1:18 - 19).


hOTI EGÔ EIPA THEOI ESTE
I said gods you are.

• I said (hoti ego eipa). Recitative hoti before a direct quotation like our quotation marks. Eipa is a late second aorist form of indicative with -a instead of -on. (RWP)
• Ye are gods (theoi este). Another direct quotation after eipa but without hoti. The judges of Israel abused their office and God is represented in Ps 82:6 as calling them “gods” (theoi, elohim) because they were God’s representatives. See the same use of elohim in Ex 21:6; Ex 22:9, Ex 22:28. Jesus meets the rabbis on their own ground in a thoroughly Jewish way. (RWP)

PROS hOUS hO LOGOS TOU THEOU EGENETO
With whom the word of God was
• To whom the word of God came (pros hous ho logos tou theou egeneto). The relative points to ekeinous, before. These judges had no other claim to the term theoi (elohim). (RWP)

KAI OU DUNATAI LUTHÊNAI hÊ GRAPHÊ
And cannot be broken the scripture

• And the scripture cannot be broken (kai ou dunatai luthēnai hē graphē). A parenthesis that drives home the pertinency of the appeal, one that the Pharisees had to accept. Luthēnai is first aorist passive infinitive of luō, to loosen, to break. (RWP)
Notes
1 For a detailed analysis of Jesus' use of Psalm 82, see W. Gary Phillips, "John 10:34-26: An Apologetic Study," Bibliotheca Sacra, 584 (1989). I am indebted to Phillips' study throughout this next section.
2. Robertson is typical of those advocating this view: "As Jews (and rabbis) they are shut out from charging Jesus with blasphemy because of this usage in the O.T. It is a complete ad hominem argument" (RWP). D.A. Carson argues: "Although it is ad hominem - i.e., it does not require Jesus to subscribe to the same literal exegesis as his opponents - it is not for that reason silly" (Carson, p. 399). In my view, if Jesus uses an exegesis contrary to the Jews, He has not effectively answered them. It would allow the Jews to reject His answer on the grounds of equivocation - that is, that He now claiming that "the Son of God" means no more than "sons of the Most High" in Psalm 82. I think it better to understand Jesus as establishing a general principle that the Jews would have to agree with, on the basis of their acknowledgement that "the Scripture cannot be broken."
3. This fallacy may be illustrated as follows: If I am in Toledo, I am in Ohio. I am in Ohio, therefore I am in Toledo (not necessarily; I might be in Cleveland). Similarly, if one is the Son of God, one is a son of God. But that does not mean that "a son of God" is the same thing as "the Son of God." The "gods" in Ps 82 are "sons of the Most High," but that does not make them the Son of God.
http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn10_34.htm


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:01 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Part II

Wright Page 123; Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34

34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, ' I am the Son of God'?

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

Quote:
"I SAID: YOU ARE GODS":
PSALM 82:6 AND JOHN 10
JEROME H. NEYREY, SJ.


Biblical texts that called mortals "gods" attracted attention from commentators and became the focus of ingenious interpretations and exegetical principles. [1] This is certainly true of Ps 82:6, "I said: 'You are Gods.'" The present study examines the use of Ps 82:6 in John 10:34-36. It is my hypothesis that the Fourth Gospel understands Psalm 82 very much the way it was understood in Jewish midrash, for which it might be the earliest extant example. An examination of the understanding and function of Ps 82:6 in John 10:34-36 will necessarily entail a survey of Jewish interpretations of that Psalm to put the Johannine passage in its proper perspective.

I. Status Questionis

In the 1960s, a debate emerged over the interpretation of Ps 82:6-7 in relation to John 10:34-36, the general lines of which were summarized by Anthony Hanson. [2] He called attention to four different ways in which Psalm 82 was understood in Jewish traditions, with reference to (a) angels, (b) Melchizedek, (c) judges, and (d) Israel at Sinai. All four interpretations are attested to in midrashic literature, but which one relates to John10:34-36?

Angels. In an early study on Psalm 82, J. A. Emerton [3] argued that in the targum to the Psalms, [4] Qumran, [5] the Peshitta, and the Fathers, elohim in Psalm 82 was understood to refer to "angels." Emerton suggests that elohim refers to superhuman beings to whom the nations were allotted (e.g., Deut 4:19; Daniel 10), whom the Jews regarded as angels but whom the Gentiles called gods (see 1 Cor 10:20).

Melchizedek In llQMelch, Psalm 82 was cited apropos of Melchizedek The modern editor of llQMelch described the document as an "eschatological midrash" which cast Melchizedek in the role of judge. [6] Emerton, who had argued that the "gods" mentioned in Psalm 82 were "angels,"' now saw the Melchizedek = Elohim reference in llQMelch strengthening his earlier interpretation of Psalm 82; he suggested that Melchizedek was being identified with the archangel Michael. [7] Hanson conceded that Melchizedek might be called "god," but rejected its relevance for John 10. [8]

Judges. Psalm 82 has also been interpreted in Jewish tradition to refer to the judges of Israel, evidence for which comes from b, Ber. 6a and Midr. Ps. 82. [9] This interpretation of the psalm enjoyed considerable popularity during a certain period of Johannine scholarship. [10] Returning to the issue of Melchizedek in llQMelch, Joseph Fitzmyer, [11] who basically agreed with van der Woude's original interpretation of the passage, paraphrased line 10 of this fragment as follows: "Elohim (Melchizedek) has taken his stand in the assembly of El (Yahweh), in the midst of gods (angelic court) he gives judgment." [12] He understands Melchizedek's role in that text not as an angel but as a judge. [13]

Israel at Sinai. As far back as Billerbeck, [14] it was argued that Ps 82:6-7 was historicized in Jewish traditions to refer to Israel at Sinai when God gave it the Torah, making it holy and so deathless. This midrash, which has become a popular understanding of the use of Ps 82:6-7 in John 10:34-36, [15] implies that Israel experienced a new creation at Sinai. Because God gave Israel the word of Torah, to which it became obedient, Israel became deathless once more as it resumed the "image and likeness of God" given it at creation. James Ackerman, the chief proponent of this argument, suggested that the Johannine Prologue bears striking resemblances to the "Sinai myth,"' indicating how Wisdom once dwelt on earth with humankind (Ps 82:6), thus making them immortal; but because Wisdom was rejected and returned to heaven, sinful mortals now die (Ps 82:7). [16]

As regards these interpretations and John 10, Hanson rejected the traditions that interpret "god" as either angels or judges. [17] He correctly concluded that only the last interpretation of Psalm 82 (Israel at Sinai) has any bearing on the argument in John 10. [18] All of the studies cited above, however, are deficient for several reasons. First, they tend to argue for an extrinsic interpretation of Psalm 82 in John 10: if Jews in their scriptures or tradition can call a man "god," then Jesus is not totally out of line in being called a divine figure. [19] This type of extrinsic argument shows little respect for the midrashic understanding of Psalm 82 or other texts from scripture about the justification in the first place for calling any human "god," even by extension. Are there intrinsic reasons in the midrash on Psalm 82 which give warrant to such a predication? Second, those who treat the background of Psalm 82, even in passing, do not present an adequate exegesis of the argument in John 10 to see on what grounds Jesus is acclaimed "equal to God" (10:30, 33) and what Psalm 82 has to do with that argument- There are some commentators who deny that Psalm 82 in any way responds to the charges. [20] There is, then, much work left to be done. We turn now to a more detailed exegesis of John 10 to see what is being argued, so that we might assess more clearly the meaning and function of Psalm 82 in relation to that argument.

II. The Argument in John 10:28-37

Unless Psalm 82 is used in a purely extrinsic manner [21] in John 10:34-36, then we must investigate how it functions as an apology to a specific charge in the forensic dynamics of John 10. The starting place is 10:30, where Jesus claims "I and the Father are one (or equal)." The crowds correctly interpret this to mean that Jesus in some way claims "equality with God." His claim leads them to a judgment, "blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God" (10:33). Several questions arise: In what respect are Jesus and God "one" (or equal)? Is it true that Jesus "makes himself" God? This means that we must examine both the earlier part of John 10 to see in what sense Jesus and God are "equal" and the subsequent apology in 10:34-38 to see how Psalm 82 relates to the claims of equality.

The First Forensic Proceeding (10:1-28a)

After Jesus claimed to be the door and the shepherd (10:1-16), the Gospel describes confusion in the crowd about these claims: Is he a demon or a saint (10:19-21)? So intense is this popular confusion that a formal forensic process is begun in 10:22-27 about Jesus' claims. Since the crowd, who is an uneducated 'am ha-ares (7:47-49), could not possibly decide these claims, a solemn assembly gathers "in the temple, in the stoa of Solomon" (10:23). There it puts a formal question to Jesus: "Tell us plainly, if you are the Messiah?" (10:24). Thus, 10:1-28a can be seen as a forensic proceeding [22] which formally examines Jesus' claims:
Claim: Jesus is the Door, Good Shepherd (10:1-16)
Judgment: Tell us plainly if you are the Christ? (10:24)
Apology: Defense of Jesus as Shepherd (10:25-27)

Jesus' defense of his claim contains no new material which proves its truth, but is itself a judgment on his judges, [23] an actual demonstration of how his claims work.

10:1-16 10:27-28a
1. The (true) sheep hear 1. My sheep hear
his voice (10:3b) my voice (10:27a)
2. 1 know my own 2. I know them (10:27b)
and my own know me (10:14)
3. The sheep follow him, for 3. And they follow me (10:27c)
they know his voice (10:4)

By Jesus' criteria of judgment, then, he proves that his judges are not his sheep nor is he their shepherd. According to the Gospel's logic, these self-confessed non-sheep have rejected Jesus' basic claims to be God's agent and so are convicted of sin and unbelief (see John 3:18, 20; 5:40-45; 9:39-41; 12:46-48). Yet the forensic process is not yet finished.

The Second Forensic Proceeding (10:28b-39)

In 10:28-30 Jesus makes newer and bolder claims Although formerly this Gospel claimed that believers by their own judgment come to life and pass beyond death (3:16-19; 5:24), now Jesus asserts that he himself is the giver of eternal life: "I give them eternal life and they never perish" (10:28a). He asserts that "no one shall snatch them out of my hand" (10:28b). [24] Thus, Jesus now functions as the active agent of life, as giver of eternal life and as protector of his sheep even in death. Yet these claims would put him on a par with the all-powerful God.

10:29 states two things about God. First, God is "greater than all" [25] in virtue of God's ruling or executive power as pantocrator, despotes, and basileus. [26] Second, of God it is said, "My Father…has given them [the sheep] to me and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (10:29). Concerning the latter remark, then, Jesus and God are alike, even equal.

Jesus (10:28) The Father (10:29)
I give them eternal life My Father…has given
and they shall not perish them to me
forever,
and no one shall snatch and no one is able to snatch
them out of my hand. them out of the Fathers hand.

To underscore the boldness of Jesus' claims, the text emphasizes that "God is greater than all” (10:29b), thus raising God above all other creatures, be they of no power or great power. Yet Jesus claims that he is "equal to" God who is "greater than all," when he draws the conclusion in 10:30, "I and the Father are hen."

Literally hen means "one." But the context suggests that this adjective be translated as "equal to" or "on a par with." Jesus claims far more than mere moral unity with God, which was the aim of every Israelite; such moral unity would never mean that mortals had become “god;” as Jesus' remark is understood in 10:31-33. The very argument in John, then, understands hen to mean more than moral unity, that is, "equality with God." By way of confirmation, 1 Cor 3:7 indicates that hen can mean "equality." [27] In virtue of the com¬parison noted above, Jesus claims equality with God, who is "greater than all," because there is “no snatching out of their hands.” To what does this refer?

In the context of 10:28, Jesus claims both the power to give eternal life so that his sheep do not perish and the power to guard them from being snatched. “Being snatched,” then, has to do with life and death, such that Death [28] has no ultimate power over Jesus' sheep. Conversely, this implies that Jesus has such power from God so that he is the one who gives eternal life and rescues the dead from the snares of Death (see John 5:25, 28-29; 6:39, 44, 54; 8:51; 11:25). Since God alone holds the keys of life and death, Jesus claims an extraordinary power which belongs exclusively to God. [29] There is substance, then, to the claim that Jesus and the Father are "equal" (10:30).

I have shown at great length that the Fourth Gospel clearly and formally argues that Jesus is "equal to God" (5:18; 10:33) because God has given him full eschatological power (5:21-29). [30] God gave him power (1) to give eternal life (5:21; 10:28), (2) to judge (5:22, 27; 8:21-30), (3) to be honored as Lawmaker and Judge (5:23), (4) to have life in himself (5:26; 10:17-18), and (5) to raise the dead and judge them (5:28-29). In fact, 5:21-29, a summary of Jesus' eschatological power, functions as a topic statement which the Gospel subsequently develops in chaps, 8, 10, and 11. [31] The claims in 10:28-30, then, continue the exposition of Jesus' full eschatological power.

Our exegesis of 10:22-30 yields the following information. A second forensic process begins in 10:28-30. Jesus is formally on trial, not just concerning whether he is "the Christ" (10:23-24), but especially about his claim to be "equal to God" (10:30, 33), The chief issue that is contested, moreover, concerns ultimate power over death, whereby Jesus is equal to God.

Claim: “I and the Father are ‘one.’” (10:30, 33), i,e., power over death (10:28-30):
(a) “I give them eternal life”
(b) "they do not perish forever"
(c) "no one snatches them out of my hand"

Judgment: "Blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself equal to God" (10:33)

Apology: Use of Ps 82:6 (10:34-36): their judgment is false, because God makes Jesus to be "Son of God"

Our focus necessarily turns to the apology in 10:34-36. How does the Fourth Gospel understand and use Psalm 82, and does this usage have any relationship to the claims made in 10:28-30? As we begin, let us pay special attention to the form of the charge in 10:33. Jesus is accused of "making himself" equal to God, a charge that dominates the many forensic proceedings against him:

5:18 "…making himself God"
10:33 "you, a man, make yourself God"
19:7 "he made himself the son of God"
19:12 "who makes himself king…" [32]
The evangelist distinguishes two elements of the judgment against Jesus: (1) Does Jesus make himself God or equal to God? (2) In what sense is Jesus equal to God or “god”? The distinction is important, for the Johannine Gospel denies the former half, that is, that Jesus makes himself anything, but care¬fully explains and defends the assertion of his equality with God. [33]

Psalm 82 as Apologetic Response

In response to the charge of blasphemy, Jesus advances an argument from scripture using Psalm 82. When he cites Ps 82:6 in 10:34, he establishes the mode of argument by comparing two things: if scripture was not in error calling mortals "gods" (Ps 82:6), then neither is there error in calling the one whom God consecrated and sent into the world "the Son of God" (10:35-36).

Jesus' reference to "Son of God" in 10:36 does not weaken the argument by reducing the claim from “god” to “son of God,” because if one continues reading Ps 82:6, the two terms are considered parallel and equivalent there ("I said, 'You are gods, all of you, sons of the Most High'"). [34] In claiming to be the consecrated "Son of God," he does not claim less than what is claimed by being "god" according to Ps 82:6. On the contrary, he claims more.

Yet how does the Fourth Gospel understand Ps 82:6? One stream of critical opinion takes the citation extrinsically, on a literal level as a mere play on words. If mortals, for whatever reason, can truly be called "gods" according to scripture, then the term is not a priori preposterously applied to Jesus. This type of explanation does not ask under what circumstances mortals might be called "gods," and it sees Jesus basically engaging in an evasive maneuver.

Such reasoning, however, does not mesh with the Johannine perspective for several reasons. The Fourth Gospel always criticizes people who take things literally, either Jesus' word or the scriptures. Regularly we find a pattern where Jesus makes a statement, which his hearers misunderstand because they take it on a literal level, which leads Jesus to issue a clarification which exposes the spiritual or inner meaning of his words. [35] It seems improbable, then, that the Fourth Gospel is dealing superficially with Psalm 82, asking readers to take its phrases and argument on a literal or extrinsic level. This is all the more true since the Gospel constantly maintains that spiritual vision is needed to see the inner meaning of texts from the scriptures which Jesus fulfills (see John 2:17, 22; 6:31; 8:56, 58, etc.).

A literal reading of Psalm 82, moreover, seems inconsistent with the more typical pattern of Johannine Christology. Wayne Meeks noted that when something claimed about Jesus causes a reaction from the synagogue, the Johannine community tends not to moderate its claim, but to rephrase it in such a way as to cause even greater offense. [36] Thus, if mortals may be called "god," then Jesus, whom God consecrated and sent into the world, can be called "Son of God," meaning "equal to God." A purely extrinsic reading of Ps 82:6 in regard to John 10:34-36 hardly seems warranted.

How, then, does the Fourth Gospel understand and use Psalm 82? The chief clue to a special reading of Ps 82:6 lies in 10:35, when we observe the way the Gospel interprets Ps 82:6 as part of its argument: “If he called them 'gods' to whom the word of God came…” Whoever, then, is called "god" is so named because "the word of God came" to them. Scholars have long argued that this refers to Israel at Sinai when God gave it the Torah, which I think is absolutely correct. [37] Yet what is the shape of the midrash on this and how might it apply to the Fourth Gospel?

B. F. Westcott, for example, argued that when the Fourth Gospel speaks of "those to whom the word of God came," the evangelist refers to the preexistent Word who regularly gave theophanies to Israel's patriarchs. [38] Although the Fourth Gospel indeed develops an argument that Jesus is the appearing deity of the OT, [39] it is not apparent that an allusion is being made to that tradition in John 10, nor is it clear how such an allusion really advances the argument that Jesus is rightly called "god." The evangelist, moreover, does not propose here the argument which was made in the prologue, that the "Word came unto his own and his own received him not" (1:11). [40] Israel is not being reproached here for rejecting once more God's revelation to it.

III. Ps 82:6 in Jewish Midrash

The emphasis in John 10:35 is not on Jesus, the preexistent Word, but on "those to whom the word of God came," who are called “gods.” Who were these people? Although it is not the only stream of interpretation of Ps 82:6-7 in Jewish literature, there is a clear sense that Ps 82:6-7 was understood in terms of Israel at the Sinai theophany. A second-century midrash goes as follows:

If it were possible to do away with the Angel of Death I would. But the decree has long ago been decreed. R. Jose says: It was upon this condition that the Israelites stood up before Mount Sinai, on the condition that the Angel of Death should have not power over them. For it is said: “I SAID: YE ARE GODS” (Ps 82:6). But you have corrupted your conduct. "SURELY YE SHALL DIE LIKE MEN" (Ps 82:7). [41]

Commentary: the occasion is Sinai (“Israel stood up before Mount Sinai”), when God descended on the mountain to give the Torah. According to Exod 20:18-19, when the Israelites saw the mountain blazing with lightning and heard the thundering, they said to Moses: "You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die." In light of this, the Mekilta indicates that God restrained the Angel of Death, so that Israel did not die. And so because Israel became deathless, that is, beyond the power of the Angel of Death, Ps 82:6 applied to them, “I said ‘You are gods.’” Gods, then, because deathless. But with the worship of the golden calf, Israel sinned, and suffered once more the penalty for sin, which is death: "You shall die like men" (Ps 82:7).

An important variation of this midrash occurs in b. 'Abod. Zar: 5a. The context is a discussion of Deut 5:25-26 where Israel received the Sinai revelation. The author comments that they have seen God and yet still live (recall the discussion of Exod 20:18-19 above); “therefore,” they ask, "why should we die?" This question becomes the occasion for comment about the fluctuating power of the Angel of Death.

R Jose said: The Israelites accepted the Torah only so that the Angel of Death should have no dominion over them, as it is said: “I SAID: YE ARE GODS AND ALL OF YOU SONS OF THE MOST HIGH” (Ps 82:6). Now that you have spoilt your deeds, "YE SHALL DIE LIKE MORTALS' (Ps 82:7). [42]

Commentary: the occasion is Sinai; Israel is once again called god because deathless. But now we find the explicit note that being called god and being deathless are linked to the reception of Torah. In fact, Israel chooses God's Torah for the express purpose that the Angel of Death should not have power over it. Something else, then, is operative here which suggests that receiving God's word (Torah) makes one holy, and if holy, then sinless, and if sinless, then deathless.

A third early midrash can help to clarify the basic lines of this interpretation of Ps 82:6-7. The context is a reflection on Deut 32:20, "I will see what their end will be," which is seen referring to a fickle, perfidious people.

You stood at Mount Sinai and said, "All that the Lord hath spoken will we do, and obey" (Exod 24:7), (whereupon) "I SAID: YE ARE GODS' (Ps 82:6); but when you said to the (golden) calf, "This is thy god, 0 Israel" (Exod 32:4), I said to you, “NEVERTHELESS, YE SHALL DIE LIKE MEN” (Ps 82:7). [43]

Commentary: at Sinai Israel received God's word of Torah ("all that the Lord hath spoken") and became holy and sinless ("...we will do and obey"), for which reason they are called gods. Although it is not explicitly stated here, this argument assumes that holiness leads to deathlessness, which is a godlike quality, for which reason Israel is called god. Yet with Israel's new sin comes death, the typical fate of sinful mortals ("ye shall die like men").

The basic lines of the midrashic understanding of Ps 82:6-7, then, are clear. When Israel at Sinai received God's Torah and obeyed, this led to genuine holiness which resulted in deathlessness; hence, Israel could be called god because deathless. But when disobedient and sinful, Israel deserved the wages of sin, that is, death; hence, Israel could be called man.

Yet this type of argument presumes some biblical understanding of death and deathlessness as well as of the nature of humanity and God. In short, the link between obedience-holiness-deathlessness lies back in the Genesis exposition of Adam in God's "image and likeness," [44] an implicit scenario made explicit in the following midrash. The segment is somewhat long, but because of its importance and the complicated argument in it, it deserves to be cited as fully as possible.

R. Eleazar b. R. Jose the Galilean remarked: The Angel of Death com¬plained to the Holy One, blessed be He: 'I have then been created in the world to no purpose!' The Holy One, blessed be He, replied: ‘I have created you in order that you shall destroy idol-worshippers, but not this people, for you have no jurisdiction over them.’ That they should live and endure for ever; as it says, "But ye that did cleave unto the Lord your God are alive every one of you" (Deut 4:4). In the same strain it says, "The writing was the writing of God, graven (haruth) upon the tables" (Exod 32:16). What is the signification of "haruth"? R. Judah says: Freedom (heruth) from foreign governments; R. Nehemiah says: From the Angel of Death; and Rabbi says: From suffering. See then the plan the Holy One, blessed be He, had made for them! Yet forthwith they frustrated the plan after forty days. Accordingly it says, "But ye have set at nought all my counsel" (Prov 1:25). The Holy one, blessed be He, said to them: 'I thought you would not sin and would live and endure for ever like Me; even as I live and endure for ever and to all eternity; I SAID: YE ARE GODS, AND ALL OF YOU SONS OF THE MOST HIGH (Ps 82:6), like the ministering angels, who are immortal. Yet after all this greatness, you wanted to die! INDEED, YE SHALL DIE LIKE MEN (Ps 82:7)--Adam, i.e. like Adam whom I charged with one commandment which he was to perform and live and endure for ever'; as it says, "Behold the man was as one of us" (Gen 3:22). Similarly, "And God created man in His own image" (Gen 1:27), that is to say, that he should live and endure like Himself. Yet [says God] he corrupted his deeds and nullified My decree. For he ate of the tree, and I said to him: "For dust thou art" (Gen 3:19). So also in your case, “I SAID YE ARE GODS;” but you have ruined yourselves like Adam, and so "INDEED, YE SHALL DIE like Adam" (Num Rab. 16.24) [45]

The typical features of the midrashic understanding of Ps 82:6-7 are clearly evident: (a) Sinai and the giving of the Torah, (b) Israel's obedience ("cleaving unto the Lord"), (c) deathlessness or immortality ("freedom from the Angel of Death" .."live and endure for ever like Me"), and hence (d) Israel being called god (Ps 82:6). This midrash makes explicit the generally assumed doctrine of the relation of sin and death found primarily in Genesis 1-3, for it points out that God created Adam “in His image and likeness,” that is, deathless. Adam was deathless because holy and obedient (“I charged with one commandment which he was to perform and live and endure for ever”). Adam died precisely because he sinned and lost God's holiness and "image." This midrash also makes clear that interpreters of Ps 82:6-7 saw Sinai as a new creation, when the obedience, holiness, and deathlessness of Adam were restored to Israel, thus linking the Adam myth with the Sinai myth, as the following diagram suggests.
Adam in Paradise Israel at Sinai
1. created in holiness 1. reconstituted in holiness
2. and so deathless 2. and so deathless,
3 yet sinned (ate fruit) 3. yet sinned (worshiped calf)
4. and so died, 4. and so died.

The midrashim we are examining all presume a complex yet traditional explanation of the source of death. Good biblical doctrine states that God created Adam in a state of holiness. He was, moreover, created in God's “image and likeness,” which Wisdom 2:23 explains as a state of deathlessness: [46]
God made man for incorruption
and made him in the image of his own eternity.

Deathlessness (or “eternity”) was conditioned upon holiness. God said, “On the day you eat it you shall die” (Gen 2:17; 3:3). The tempter deceived Eve that if she broke God’s commandment “You shall not die” (Gen 3:5), which was a lie; for of the sinful Adam God said, “You are dust and to dust you shall return” (Gen 3:19).

Although we have surveyed only four instances of the midrashic understanding of Psalm 82, many more can be found in Jewish literature. Yet as we investigate those other citations of Psalm 82, they only confirm what has just been shown. In general, it can be stated that when Psalm 82 is cited in Jewish midrash, writers generally understand that Israel is called god because of its holiness and/or its deathlessness. [47]

Evidently some midrashim contain a fully developed exposition of the Psalm, while others have but fragments of an explanation. Yet even the earliest midrash cited above, the Mekilta, implies as much as it states, probably because it reflects a very common tradition which is presumably well known. Not all of the elements of the midrash, moreover, need be explicitly mentioned when the Psalm is interpreted, for midrash is like an iceberg. As much is implied as is visible. With this survey of midrashic interpretation of Ps 82:6 in mind, we return to John 10:34-36. Does the Fourth Gospel interpret Psalm 82 in a midrashic manner, and, if so, how much of the midrash does it know and use?

IV. Midrash in John 10:34-36

If the Fourth Gospel understands Psalm 82 in a midrashic manner, we would want to see where John 10:34-36 stands in regard to three issues which regularly arise in the midrashim. First, the historical occasion of Psalm 82 is regularly seen to be Israel’s reception of God’s word at Sinai. Second, the midrash on Psalm 82 does not call Israel gods for purely extrinsic reasons, but links godlikeness with deathlessness and/or holiness. Finally, even the simple midrash assumes some biblical notion of death and deathlessness, which implies an understanding of Genesis 1-3 or some popular myth of the origin of death in the world. With these points in mind let us return to John 10.

As we noted above, the Fourth Gospel seems to understand Psalm 82 in a midrashic sense as referring to Israel at Sinai. For the evangelist interprets the content of “I said, ‘You are gods’” apropos of “those to whom the word of God came” (10:34-35). People, then, are not called god gratuitously, for there is intrinsic content to the predication. The Fourth Gospel does not explicitly state that “gods...those to whom the word of God came” refers to Israel’s deathlessness, but only to its holiness in virtue of an obedient hearing of Torah. Although deathlessness is not explicitly mentioned in 10:34, I would argue that it is assumed in the link between holiness and godlikeness. After all, it is not the mere physical hearing of the Word of God, but hearing in faith and obedience which constitutes holiness. Such is the hearing that is celebrated in John 5:24; 8:37; 9:27. This Gospel clearly sees an intrinsic link between hearing in faith and passing to eternal life. Nevertheless, John 10:34-36 does not explicitly link godlikeness with deathlessness, but only with holiness.

The focus on holiness, moreover, continues in the application of Ps 82:6 to Jesus in 10:36. If Israel, who became holy, may be called god, then it is not blasphemy if Jesus, whom God consecrated and sent as his apostle into the world, is called god and Son of God. Holiness or sinlessness again serves as the ground for calling someone, Israel or Jesus, god.

Throughout the Fourth Gospel. Jesus’ holiness or sinfulness has been a formal topic of debate. As regards his alleged sinfulness, the Gospel repeatedly takes note of the popular judgment of Jesus as a sinner (9:16, 24), a judgment based on his two healings on the sabbath (5:1-17; 9:1-7). His enemies, moreover, charge him with being thoroughly evil, that is, possessed of a demon (7:20; 8:48; 10:20). Here in 10:33 and 36 he is charged with a new sin, blasphemy, for claiming to be “equal to God.”

In the face of these accusations, the Fourth Gospel denies any sin on Jesus’ part. John 10:36 represents but the most recent evidence of this defense, as it proclaims that God consecrated Jesus. After all, God’s judgment of Jesus must surely have greater weight than that of his peers (see 5:31-46). We have, moreover, heard of God’s evaluation of Jesus elsewhere, that “The Father loves the Son” (3:35; 5:30). Sinners, of course, find no place in God’s presence, yet Jesus was “face to face” with God (1:1-2) and in God’s “bosom” (1:18). And Jesus will return to God’s presence at the completion of his mission (13:3; 17:5, 24). God, then, judges Jesus to be sinless and worthy to stand in the divine presence.

Nor could anyone convict Jesus of sin (8:46). His working on the sabbath constituted no breach of God’s law, but must be perceived precisely as obedience to God’s will (5:31; 7:21-23). In fact, Jesus’ very ability to open the eyes of the blind testifies to his closeness to God (9:31-33). Jesus’ holiness (6:69) and his consecration (10:36) attest to his preeminent sinlessness or holiness.

Divine consecration of Jesus, moreover, suggests a picture of him as one totally set aside for God’s purposes [48] and completely obedient to God’s will. This radical image of commissioning evoked for Rudolf Schnackenburg the sense of a person sealed with the Holy Spirit, [49] a comment that makes us recall the testimony of the Baptizer in 1:30-31. John testified that he saw God’s Spirit not only descend on Jesus but “remain on him” (1:32-33), which suggests that divine power and holiness were no passing phenomenon for Jesus. Because of the dwelling of the Holy Spirit on Jesus, John testifies that he is “the Son of God” (1:34), a figure whose task was to purify others with the Spirit which remained in him (1:33). Jesus, then, is no sinner, but God’s Holy One.

Thus far we have noted that 10:34-35 understands Ps 82:6 to mean that obedience to God’s word leads to holiness and godlikeness. As we saw with the midrashim, this interpretation presumes some notion of deathlessness linked with holiness. Yet it is important to pay attention to where and how Ps 82:6 functions in the forensic structure of 10:28-36. The Fourth Gospel uses Psalm 82 as a refutation of part of the charge. Jesus’ judges judged wrongly when they accused him of making himself god or equal to God, because God Himself makes Jesus Son of God, just as God mode Israel “god” by delivering the Torah to it. At a minimum, then, Jesus refutes the essence of the charge by maintaining that God makes him what he is, namely, a consecrated servant, agent, and apostle, a person totally set apart by God for sacred duty. [50] The apology based on Psalm 82, then, argues two things: it refutes the charge that Jesus makes himself “Son of God,” even as it affirms his radical holiness against the charge of blasphemy. But if it confounds his accusers (10:31-33), does it explain or support the claims made in 10:28-30 which precipitated the forensic controversy in the first place?

We claimed above that Jesus is “equal to God” because of his “power over death.” In regard to this, Ps 82:6 does not seem to play a significant part.
Claim: Equal to God: power over death (10:28-30)
Judgment: Blasphemy, you a man, make yourself a god (10:33)
Apology: Charge refuted: it is God who makes Jesus “Son of God” because
of his holiness (Ps 82:6//John 10:34-36)
Ps 82:6, then, functions in a limited way; it proves the judges’ judgment is false, but it hardly pertains to the substance of Jesus’ claims in 10:28-30. Psalm 82, moreover, would not be a satisfactory explanation for Jesus’ “equality with God” according to the Fourth Gospel. Even when made deathless, Israel always remained less than God, merely mortal; the Angel of Death might still have power over them. Of Jesus, however, this Gospel claims that he is no mere mortal, but a divine figure. He has power over the Angel of Death, not vice versa. Ps 82:6 may function to prove the judges’ judgment wrong (he does not “make himself” anything; God makes him “Son of God”), but it is not exploited as an adequate explanation for the Johannine assertion that Jesus has power over death (10:28-30). Ps 82:6 functions only to prove that the judges’ judgment is false.

What then of the forensic claims themselves? Jesus and God are “equal” in terms of power over death. Yet is Jesus himself deathless? Whence comes his power over death? Friend and foe both know that he died on the cross. Friends proclaim that his death was God’s will and plan (Acts 2:23; 4:28) and that he was fully obedient to God, even unto death (Phil 2:8; Mark 14:35-36). The Fourth Gospel, moreover, proclaims a more remarkable thing about God’s involvement in Jesus’ death. In 10:17-18 Jesus asserts that God loves him precisely because he dies: “For this reason the Father loves me, that I lay down my life, that I may take it again” (10:17). Death is usually a sign of God’s wrath, not love. Jesus’ death, then, is clearly not the result of sin, as the midrash on Ps 82:7 argues. Nor is Jesus the helpless victim whose life is taken from him, either by men or the Angel of Death. For, as he declares, “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord” (10:18a). Furthermore, his death occurs in strict obedience to God, not as punishment for sinfulness on his part: “This commandment I have received from my Father (10:18b). In 10:28-30, moreover, Jesus claims to be equal to God in having God’s own power over death. Jesus, then, while not literally deathless himself, has full power over death.

Indisputably Jesus dies, but the Fourth Gospel steadfastly maintains that Jesus has power over death, both the death of his followers and his own. We noted earlier how this Gospel proclaims that Jesus has God’s eschatological power to the full, one aspect of which is to “give life” to others (5:21; 10:28) and to “raise the dead” (5:25, 28-29; 11:25). Yet Jesus has power over his own death, to lay down his life and to take it back (10:17-18); this power was received when God gave him to “have life in himself” (5:26), just as God has life in Himself. And so Jesus is proclaimed deathless in a special way: although he dies, he has complete power over death, his own and that of his followers. He raises himself from death to life and he raises his followers from death as well.

Ps 82:6 in the midrashim explains deathlessness, but in a way that is not adequate to the claims made in the Fourth Gospel about Jesus’ power over death. For this reason, I suggest, the evangelist did not employ the full midrashic understanding of Psalm 82 which was available to him.

IV. Conclusions and Further Questions

In summary, John 10:34-36 can be said to understand Ps 82:6 and use it in specific ways. (1) According to 10:34-35, Ps 82:6 (“I said, ‘You are gods’”) is understood to refer to Israel at Sinai when it received the Torah (“to whom the word of God came,” 10:35). (2) Implied in this understanding is the intimate link between holiness :: deathlessness :: godlikeness. The Fourth Gospel cites only an abbreviated form of this, holiness :: godlikeness (3) Ps 82:6b (“sons of the Most High”) is cited by Jesus when he calls himself “Son of God” (10:36), and it refers to his godlikeness in terms of holiness (see “consecrated and sent”). (4) Ps 82:6 does not touch the substance of the claims made in 10:28-30 which precipitated the forensic process in 10:31-39. It functions as an adequate refutation of the erroneous judgment of Jesus’ judges, who charged that he, “a man, makes himself equal to God,” This judgment is false because God makes him “Son of God.” (5) According to the apology in 10:34-36, holiness is linked with godlikeness in ways that are appropriate to human beings, first Adam, then Israel. Jesus would be a mere human being even if acclaimed “god/Son of God,” as was Israel. But the forensic argument in John 10 claims much more. No mere human being, Jesus is a heavenly figure who is “equal to God.” His equality rests not on holiness but on divine powers intrinsic to him, that is, full eschatological power.

(6) Jesus’ claims in regard to power over death always remain important in John 10. In this Gospel, his deathlessness [51] does not formally derive from sinlessness/holiness as in the case of the midrash on Ps 82:6, but from full eschatological power which God gave him over death (5:21-29; 10:17-18). In 5:18 and 10:30, Jesus may be called “equal to God” for a much greater reason than ever justified calling Israel god, namely, because of powers intrinsic to him. Power over death is the specific content of “equal to God.”

(7) If we are correct that Ps 82:6 is understood in 10:34-36 in line with its basic midrashic interpretation, then the remark in 10:28-29 that “no one shall snatch them out of my hand” probably echoes what the midrash dis¬cusses in terms of the Angel of Death whose power over God’s people was restrained. The Angel of Death will not snatch Jesus’ followers/sheep either from his hand or God’s hand. (8) Although the midrashim studied above were written considerably later than the Fourth Gospel, the understanding of Ps 82:6 in John 10:34-36 belongs in that same trajectory of interpretation. It might be the earliest extant witness of that tradition, although not the most complete example.

This study has not by any means exhausted the inquiry into John 10:31-39. But it does raise new questions. It focuses on the formal forensic process which structures the narrative in 10:21-28a and 28b-39, highlighting especially the claims made by Jesus. The use of Psalm 82 in 10:34-36 only deflects the judges’ false judgment; a full exposition of Jesus’ claims in 10:28-30 and their adequate apology in 10:37-38 remains to be examined. The relationship of 10:28b-30 to issues of Jesus’ eschatological power in 5:21-29; 8:21-59; 11:1-41 remains to be considered.

The use of midrashic traditions is not confined to 10:34-36. [52] Appreciation of John’s use not only of the scriptures but especially their midrashic understanding will go a long way toward clarifying the context of the Johannine community. Finally, if there is substance to the argument about two forensic processes narrated in 10:21-28a, 28b-39, this might provide further clues to the historical development of the Johannine community. It would stand as another piece of evidence for a development from a “low” Christology (“Messiah”) to “high” Christology (“equal to God”). [53]



Notes
________________________________________
[1] For example, Exod 7:1, where God says to Moses, “I make you as god to Pharaoh.” This caused no 1ittle difficulty to Philo, as he wrestled with its interpretation in Leg All. 1.40; Sac. 9; Det. 39-40, 161-62; Migr. 84, 169; Mut. 19-20, 125, 128-29; Somn. 2.189; Quod Omn. 43-44; see also Post. 43-44 and Vit. Mos. 1.158.
[2] Anthony Hanson, "John's Citation of Psalm LXXXII Reconsidered," NTS 13 (1966-67) 363-67.
[3] J. A. Emerton, "Some New Testament Notes," JTS II (1960) 329-32.
[4] See Luis Diez Merino, Targum de Salmos (Biblio Poliglota Complutense IV,1; Madrid: Instituto Francisco Suarez, 1982) 142 and 269.
[5] See John Strugnell, “The Angelic Liturgy at Qumran-4QSerek Sirot 'Olat Hassabbat,” in Congress Volume: Oxford 1959 (VTSup 7; Leiden: Brill, 1960) esp. 336-42.
[6] The original study was by A.S. van der Woude, “Melchisedek als himmlische Erloser¬gestalt in den neugefundenen eschatologischen Midraschim aus Qumran Hohle XI,” in Oudtestamentliche Studien XIV (Leiden: Brill, 1965) 354-73; see also Marinus de Jonge and A.S. van der Woude, “11QMelchizedek and the New Testament,” NTS 12 (1965-66) 304.
[7] J. A. Emerton, “Melchizedek and the Gods: Fresh Evidence for the Jewish Background of John X.34-36,” JTS 17 (1966) 400-401.
[8] Hanson, “John's Citation of Psalm LXXXII Reconsidered,” 366.
[9] See W. G. Braude, The Midrash on the Psalms (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1959) 2. 59-60.
[10] For example, B. F. Westcott, The Gospel According to St John (London: John Murray, 1908) 70; M.-J. Lagrange, Evangile selon Saint Jean (Paris: Gabalda, 1948) 290; and R. H. Lightfoot, St John's Gospel (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1956) 209.
[11] Joseph A. Fitzmyer, “Further Light on Melchizedek from Qumran Cave 11,” JBL 86 (1967) 25-41, which is also found in his Essays on the Semitic Background of the New Testament (Missoula, MT: Scholars Press, 1974) 245-67.
[12] Ibid., 261-62.
[13] Ibid., 251-53.
[14] See Str-B, 2. 543.
[15] For example, see C. K. Barrett, The Gospel According to St. John (2d ed.; Philadelphia: Westminster, 1978) 384-85; and Nils Dahl, “The Johannine Church and History,” in Jesus in the Memory of the Early Church (Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1976) 109-10.
[16] See James Ackerman, “The Rabbinic Interpretation of Psalm 82 and the Gospel of John,” HTR 59 (1966) 186-91.
[17] Not all agree with Hanson; for example, see E. Jungkuntz, "An Approach to the Exegesis of John 10:34-36," CTM 35 (1964) 556-65.
[18] This interpretation has already been urged; see James Ackerman, "Rabbinic Interpreta¬tion;" 186-91.
[19] Jungkuntz summarizes how many modern commentators see the use of Psalm 82 either in an ad hominem argument or consider it simply irrelevant to the narrative's claims ("An Approach to the Exegesis of John 10:34," 556-58).
[20] For example, Rudolf Bultmann, The Gospel of John (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1971) 389.
[21] That is, "a play on words"; see, e.g. A. Loisy, Le quatrieme Evangile (Paris: Emil Nourry, 1921) 335.
[22] Some suggestions have been made about the relationship of John 10:22-39 and the trial before the Sanhedrin in the Synoptic Gospels, but no analysis has been made of the Johannine passage in terms of the formal elements of a forensic proceeding; see Paul Winter, "Luke xxii 66b-71," ST 9 (1955) 112-15; Raymond Brown, The Gospel According to John (AB 29; Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1966) 1. 404-6; and Rudolf Schnackenburg, The Gospel According to St. John (New York: Crossroad, 1982) 2. 306. On forensic process in John, see J. H. Neyrey, "Jesus the Judge: Forensic Process in John 8,21-59," Bib 68 (1987) 509-41.
[23] It is vintage Johannine argument to turn a judgment against Jesus into a judgment against his accusers (e.g., 5:31-46; 3:6-12); see J. H. Neyrey, "John III-A Debate over Johannine Epistemology and Christology," NT 23 (1981) 117-18. Often "judgment" in the Fourth Gospel is self-judgment, so that if people judge Jesus incorrectly, they judge themselves.
[24] Robert Aytoun pointed out that 10:28-30 bears striking resemblance to John 17:12 ("No One Shall Snatch Them Out of My Hand," ExpTim 31 [1919-20] 475-76). While there are clear parallels, Aytoun did not notice that 10:28-30 speaks about Jesus' power over death, but 17:12 speaks about protecting the disciples from death--two quite different issues.
[25] C. K. Barrett dealt convincingly with the textual issue here (Gospel, 381-82); see also J. Birdsall, "John X.29," JTS 11 (1960) 342-44.
[26] See J. Whittaker, “A Hellenistic Context for John 10,29,” VC 24 (1970) 241-44.
[27] See J. Bernard, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1926) 366; and Barnabas Lindars, The Gospel of John (London: Oliphants, 1972) 370.
[28] One recalls how Paul personifies Death in Romans when he speaks of "Death reigned" (5:14,17,21).
[29] Jewish lore notes that God gave Elijah, Elisha, and Ezekiel the key to three things that are exclusively in God’s power, viz., the key to rain, the womb, and the grave; see b. Ta'an. 2a; b. Sanh. 113a; Midr. Ps. 78.5; see also Barrett, Gospel, 260.
[30] See J. H. Neyrey, An Ideology of Revolt: John’s Christology in Social-Science Perspective (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1988) 9-93: a precis of this can be found in "'My Lord and My God’: The Divinity of Jesus in John's Gospel," Society of Biblical Literature 1986 Seminar Papers (ed. K. H. Richards; Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1986) 154-59.
[31] See Neyrey, An Ideology of Revolt, 33-34.
[32] See Heb 5:5. The substance of this charge is best understood from the perspective of cultural anthropology, which would describe Mediterranean culture in terms of "honor" and "shame"; Jesus’ peers interpret his remarks as claims to very great honor, claims that seem vain-¬glorious for a person who has never studied (John 7:15); see Bruce J Malina, The New Testament World: Insights from Cultural Anthropology (Atlanta: John Knox, 1981) 27-33.
[33] In John 5:19-29, for example, the Fourth Gospel rejects the assertion that Jesus "makes himself" anything; see Neyrey, An Ideology of Revolt, 20-22.
[34] See Brown, Gospel, 1. 409.
[35] On this form in the Fourth Gospel, see Herbert Leroy, Ratsel und Misverstandnis (Bonn: Peter Hanstein, 1968) 45-47, 53-67; and Neyrey, An Ideology of Revolt, 42-43.
[36] Wayne Meeks, “The Man from Heaven In Johannine Sectarianism,” JBL 91 (1972) 70-71.
[37] I hasten to add that John 5:37, which alludes to the Sinai theophany, denies that Israel actually saw God: "His (God's) voice you have never heard, His form you have never seen." This text basically argues the repeated claim in the Fourth Gospel that no one has ever seen God (3:13; 6:46); it functions to diminish the authority of Israel's previous revealers, such as Moses, Elijah, Abraham, and the prophets, by replacing them with Jesus, the unique revealer of God (1:18). Such an argument does not deny that theophanies indeed took place in Israel’s history, but rather that it was Jesus, the revealing deity, who appeared in them (see 8:58; 12:41). Although I claim that 10:34-35 refers to Israel's reception of Torah at Sinai, this interpretation is not contradicted by 5:37 because the two passages are arguing quite different points.
[38] Westcott, Gospel, 70; a modern version of this is argued by A. T. Hanson, "John's Citation of Psalm Ixxxii. John x.33-6," NTS 11 (1965-66) 158-62.
[39] See J. H. Neyrey, “Jacob Allusions in John 1:51,” CBQ 44 (1982) 589-94.
[40] For this type of argument, see R. H. Lightfoot, St. John’s Gospel, 208.
[41] Mekilta de-Rabbi Ishmael, Tractate Bahodesh 9 (trans. Jacob Lauterbach; Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1933) 2. 272.
[42] Trans. I. Epstein, The Babylonian Talmud (London: Soncino Press, 1935) 19.
[43] Sifre: A Tannaitic Commentary on the Book of Deuteronomy, Piska 320 (trans. Reuven Hammer; New Haven: Yale University Press, 1986) 329.
[44] On this point, see Jacob Jervell, Imago Dei (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1960) 103, 113-19. As Jervell noted, Gen 1:26 ("image and likeness of God") played a more implicit role in the explanations of deathlessness; the more frequently cited text in this regard was Gen 3:22 ("the man has become like one of us").
[45] The translation is from Midrash Rabbah (H. Freedman and M. Simon; London: Soncino Press, 1939).
[46] See Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, "Christological Anthropology in Phil., II, 6-11," RB 82 (1976) 31-37.
[47] Besides the three examples cited, other instances of the use of Ps 82:6 would include: Exod. Rab. 32:7; Lev. Rab. 4.1 and 11.3; Num. Rab. 16:24; Pirqe R. El. 47; Pesiq. R. 1.2; 14.10; 33.10; Tanhuma B Lev 7:5; Pesiq. Rab. Kah. 4; Eliyyahu Zuta 4; Eliyyahu Rabbah 24.
[48] So Barrett, Gospel, 385.
[49] Schnackenburg, Gospel, 2. 311.
[50] See Peder Borgen, "God's Agent in the Fourth Gospel," in Religions in Antiquity (ed. Jacob Neusner; Leiden: Brill, 1968) 137-48; and more recently George W. Buchanan, “Apostolic Christology,” Society of Biblical Literature 1986 Seminar Papers (ed. K. H. Richards; Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1986) 172-82.
[51] The Fourth Gospel has very conflicting material about “deathlessness.” Concerning disciples, one might literally take statements such as 3:16; 5:24; 6:50, 54 to mean that true disciples do not die; some characters in the narrative are said to believe just this (8:51-53; 11:21, 32). It is even suggested that the Beloved Disciple would not die (21:23). Yet the Gospel seems to have quickly corrected that literal reading of Jesus' words. Concerning Jesus himself, however, his followers could never claim "deathlessness" for him, given his evident demise on the cross. Yet they did claim that he overpowered death (8:28; 13:1-3). His resurrection from death is seen as his own act of power (10:17-18), thus affirming his power over death, if not deathlessness itself in another form
[52] For example, concerning the Johannine use of midrashic traditions about Jacob, see J. H. Neyrey, “Jacob Traditions and the Interpretation of John 4:10-26,” CBQ 41 (1979) 419-37.
[53] See J. Louis Martyn, “Glimpses into the History of the Johannine Community,” in his The Gospel of John in Christian History (New York: Paulist, 1979) 90-121.

http://www.nd.edu/~jneyrey1/Gods.html


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:06 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Master of Posting

BookTalk.org Moderator
Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3718
Images: 3
Location: California
Highscores: 1
Thanks: 347
Thanked: 747 times in 562 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Hmm, I've suddenly lost interest in this discussion.



Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:16 pm
Profile Personal album
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reads During Parties

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3892
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689
Thanked: 561 times in 453 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Interbane wrote:
Hmm, I've suddenly lost interest in this discussion.

No wonder.



Last edited by DWill on Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:19 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reads During Parties

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3892
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689
Thanked: 561 times in 453 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Not wanting to push the "quote" button and commit the offense of posting yet again your version of carpet-bombing, I'll just ask you what in the universe your intent could possibly be. Not being able to sensibly present and discuss your arguments yourself, is your plan to kill the discussion of this offending book?



Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:27 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
I Amaze Even Myself

Gold Contributor 2

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1871
Images: 1
Location: NC
Thanks: 409
Thanked: 466 times in 347 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Interbane wrote:
Hmm, I've suddenly lost interest in this discussion.


Me too.

By the way, here's a definition of an internet troll from Wikipedia:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response.

Stahrwe is turning this discussion into a farce. If we expect the author of this book to engage in an interview or online chat, that's pretty much going to be off the table if he sees this nonsense.

I'm working on a post for Ch. 4, but I'm steering clear of this chapter. I'm not going to feed the troll.


_________________
-Geo
Who Knows Only His Own Generation Remains Always a Child
Cicero, Orator 120


The following user would like to thank geo for this post:
DWill
Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:28 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reads During Parties

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3892
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689
Thanked: 561 times in 453 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
geo wrote:
I'm working on a post for Ch. 4, but I'm steering clear of this chapter. I'm not going to feed the troll.

What the heck, I'll risk it. Since you're probably right about his m.o., the silent treatment might be effective should there be another eruption.

I'll say this for Wright, he's increasing my appreciation for the Bible. I mean in the sense that knowing more about how any work of art is put together, its construction and themes, opens it up. I might even be motivated to read the more boring Bible books that he draws from.

A lot of what Wright says about the evolution of the Hebrew God, from El to Yahweh by way of Baal, could be called speculative, but there just isn't much real information to go on. Wright uses what information is available and stresses the importance of archaeological findings after the middle of the last century, findings that indicate that the Bible's history is not accurate. He also uses ancient Canaanite sources and new readings of the bible text itself. It has always been a controversial subject: how true is this history of the emergence of the Israelites? Some partisans point to archaeological discoveries of places named in the Bible as if to say, see, the Bible didn't lie about this, so all the history must be true. But that's obviously not a warranted conclusion. The preferred epic or mythic lineage constructed by Jews for the Israelites is not history. Contrasting the relative suddeness and clean divisions given in the Bible, Wright traces the gradual emergence of the Israelites from the Canaanites, and of the Hebrew god of the Bible that was "promoted" past his old master, El, and then not so subtly drew off qualities from a major Canaanite god, Baal. The process of syncretism was at work in this.

By uncovering some of the shifts in meaning that came about through translation, Wright is able to show that Yahweh is more the mythological god in the Bible than is generally assumed. That is, he does his fair share of amazing feats in battle against monsters and forces of nature; he blows the Red Sea waters to a standstill with "a blast of [his] nostrils," among other epic achievements.

Wright ends with a question he won't fully answer until later: "What exactly is the connection between monotheism and intolerance, between monotheism and violence. A premise shared by all who commit violence in the name of the Abrahamic god is that this god is special--the one true god. And most of these people would say his specialness was manifest in his mode of appearance: more than three millennia ago, he showed up suddenly, announced his presence, and rejected the pagan polytheism of the day. If you ask them how they know that, they're likely to say that the scriptures told them so" (p. 129).

Also in summation: "The Hebrew bible--read carefully, and in light of ancient Canaanite writings--doesn't really tell the story the faithful have said it tells to begin with; at least, it doesn't tell that story in ultimately credible form. Alongside its monotheistic plotline lies diverse evidence casting that plotline into doubt. The story is undermined not just by the facts on the ground, but by the text itself'" (p. 130).



Last edited by DWill on Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.



The following user would like to thank DWill for this post:
geo
Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:49 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
DWill wrote:
Not wanting to push the "quote" button and commit the offense of posting yet again your version of carpet-bombing, I'll just ask you what in the universe your intent could possibly be. Not being able to sensibly present and discuss your arguments yourself, is your plan to kill the discussion of this offending book?


Point #1
Before I decided to participate in this 'discussion' I asked if this was an open dicussion or if BT members wanted it to be closed. That is, an echo chamber. I was told to have at it.

Point #2
Mr. Wright engages in fanciful speculation and refers to authors whose theories he admits are out there. A few pages later he refers to the same theory in terms which make it sound as if it had been established by its previous mention in his book.

Point #3
If Mr. Wright is going to speculate about the origin of god vs God and El vs Baal vs YHWH he had better be ready, and the members of BT had better be ready to consider information in opposition to and critical of said speculation. It is disingenuous to claim that reading a few paragraphs posted in opposition to Wright is off putting when the book in question is over 400 pages.

Point #4
By this stage of life most of you should have developed the ability to skim material.

Point #5
Can you or Wright identify the supposed editors of the Bible? He even admits he can't explain why they did certain things but then decides that shouldn't stop him from speculating.

Point #6
The two lenghty posts I included show a relationship between Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34. In my opinion, the fact that there is a NT reference to the very passage that Wright addresses raises the bar for him above speculation to 'better have some darn good evidence'.
He doesn't. In fact, I haven't seen anything but speculation and much of it wild in his entire book.

Point #7
If you wish to restrict this discussion to only those who agree with Wright let me know and I will curtail my participation.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:41 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reads During Parties

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3892
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689
Thanked: 561 times in 453 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
stahrwe wrote:
Point #1
Before I decided to participate in this 'discussion' I asked if this was an open dicussion or if BT members wanted it to be closed. That is, an echo chamber. I was told to have at it.

The key word being DISCUSSION. Only by a very distorted use of that word can you justify your approach in this forum.
Quote:
Point #3
If Mr. Wright is going to speculate about the origin of god vs God and El vs Baal vs YHWH he had better be ready, and the members of BT had better be ready to consider information in opposition to and critical of said speculation. It is disingenuous to claim that reading a few paragraphs posted in opposition to Wright is off putting when the book in question is over 400 pages.

I suppose I should be grateful that you took a 5-minute breather while posting on Sept. 13. Boy, otherwise that would have been some megapost. Your reference to the book's length as justifying your "few paragraphs" is totally illogical. I'm sure I can't make my point with you if I haven't made it yet. Your manner in these forums is above all arrogant. You expect the rest of us to spend valuable time trying to divine, usually without any clue from you, the relationship of this undigested verbiage to the topic at hand. This is all English comp 101--basic research paper--stuff, and you would fail.
Quote:
Point #4
By this stage of life most of you should have developed the ability to skim material.

It is YOUR responsibility to give to us what YOU consider important for us to know, related to the point at hand.
Quote:
Point #7
If you wish to restrict this discussion to only those who agree with Wright let me know and I will curtail my participation.

Stop the insanity and I have no problem with your continuing to participate.



Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:19 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Banned
Diamond Contributor

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4141
Location: Florida
Thanks: 121
Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
DWill wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
Point #1
Before I decided to participate in this 'discussion' I asked if this was an open dicussion or if BT members wanted it to be closed. That is, an echo chamber. I was told to have at it.

The key word being DISCUSSION. Only by a very distorted use of that word can you justify your approach in this forum.
Quote:
Point #3
If Mr. Wright is going to speculate about the origin of god vs God and El vs Baal vs YHWH he had better be ready, and the members of BT had better be ready to consider information in opposition to and critical of said speculation. It is disingenuous to claim that reading a few paragraphs posted in opposition to Wright is off putting when the book in question is over 400 pages.

I suppose I should be grateful that you took a 5-minute breather while posting on Sept. 13. Boy, otherwise that would have been some megapost. Your reference to the book's length as justifying your "few paragraphs" is totally illogical. I'm sure I can't make my point with you if I haven't made it yet. Your manner in these forums is above all arrogant. You expect the rest of us to spend valuable time trying to divine, usually without any clue from you, the relationship of this undigested verbiage to the topic at hand. This is all English comp 101--basic research paper--stuff, and you would fail.
Quote:
Point #4
By this stage of life most of you should have developed the ability to skim material.

It is YOUR responsibility to give to us what YOU consider important for us to know, related to the point at hand.
Quote:
Point #7
If you wish to restrict this discussion to only those who agree with Wright let me know and I will curtail my participation.

Stop the insanity and I have no problem with your continuing to participate.


Point #1
This is not an english composition class.

Point #2
Unlike Wright I prefer to provide the information and leave the speculation to the individual consumer. You are free to read the information posted or not. The bulk of the material in the first post consists of examples, in the second of footnotes. You can get enough from reading the first few paragraphs to get a sense of the material and decide if you want to continue reading or not. I also provide the url and the references so there is no question as to the origin.

Point #3
What is insanity about posting detailed information in connection with a book discussion? Really, what is the issue?

Point #4
In Epistemology and Biblical Evidence, Geo submitted 13 pages of The Age of Reason and 13 pages of Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil. Neither include a summation and in neither case was the text included. Now, I would have prefered it to be included since, as basically a lazy person I prefer not to have to track things down myself.


_________________
“I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]


Last edited by stahrwe on Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:48 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reads During Parties

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3892
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689
Thanked: 561 times in 453 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Just engage the topic is all I ask. If it's holding Wright's feet to the flames that you are up to, fine, do that. But up to this point you haven't delivered, not by regurgitation of somebody else's writing. Think of this forum as a magazine or newspaper, or as an opinion column and present your thoughts accordingly. Could I also suggest that you reassess the situation? As you knew coming in, no one else would view the Bible as a holy book. You can't hope to bridge this divide, to convince any of us otherwise, and all of your own opinions rest on your certainty that the Bible is holy. That must be frustrating.



Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:48 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Embodiment of Reason


Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1256
Thanks: 508
Thanked: 472 times in 360 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Some clarification:


All of this quoting of the "Most High" and "Lord" without using the original names which are being translated as "Most High" and "Lord" in english does nothing more than cover over the many names of God used in the text which reveal the early Elohim pantheon blend of polytheism that is evident in books such as Psalms.

Quote:
Part I

Wright Page 123; Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34

34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, ' I am the Son of God'?

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;


This is just like every other mistake made in the NT while trying to pull from the OT. As Price pointed out, Psalms 82 is referring to the "Sons of El", that is, to this entire pantheon of Gods under El-Elyon, the most high god of the pantheon. So the NT writer was trying to look for something in the OT which would appear to justify Jesus claim to be God, that is, the same as and one with God the Father (John 10:30). The book of John is primarily concerned with the divinity of Jesus and that concern seems to have lead to this quote mine attempt made in John. But Psalms 82:6 is not about angels, or the people of Israel, or judges, it's about the Elohim pantheon of gods known as the "Sons of El". To put it in perspective the verse is actually saying:

Psalms 82:1 El (God) presides in the great assembly; he gives judgement among the Elohim (gods).

Psalms 82:6 I said, "You are Elohim (gods); you are sons of El Elyon (the most high). But you will die like mere men."

The NT writer was searching for something that appeared to justify the claims of divinity. The book of John, coincidently, is concerned with the divinity of Jesus and it's clear that the writer went searching for a way of trying to piece together a text which would appear to confirm that. But in the process the writer fowled up and pulled from these old verses from Psalms that reflect the older polytheism of the Elohim pantheon thinking that Israel was being called "gods" by Yahweh, when that isn't the case.


_________________
A) The Origins of Religious Worship

B) The Christmas Nativity

C) The Mythicist Position

D) YEC theory put to rest!


The following user would like to thank tat tvam asi for this post:
DWill, Robert Tulip
Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:17 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Online
Booktacular!

Gold Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3215
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 818
Thanked: 813 times in 611 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
I recently read The Ark of the Covenant by Graham Hancock. His argument, presented in scientific analytical terms, is that the Ark was an actual object of worship built by Moses, that was moved to Ethiopia and still exists there. This line provides an intriguing way to assess the emergence of monotheism. The 'one god' was in the box. Its cult provided the basis for Israel's national security.



Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:34 am
Profile WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Reads During Parties

Gold Contributor

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3892
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689
Thanked: 561 times in 453 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Polytheism, the Religion of Ancient Israel
Robert Tulip wrote:
I recently read The Ark of the Covenant by Graham Hancock. His argument, presented in scientific analytical terms, is that the Ark was an actual object of worship built by Moses, that was moved to Ethiopia and still exists there. This line provides an intriguing way to assess the emergence of monotheism. The 'one god' was in the box. Its cult provided the basis for Israel's national security.

Thanks, Robert. Moses and the sojourn in Egypt doesn't have a very firm historical basis, though. From Wright's point of view, monotheism would develop much later than when Moses supposedly lived. The Israelites were probably polytheists living in Canaan.



Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:53 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

Recent Posts 
Prominent Scientists and their religiosity

Wed May 23, 2012 12:44 am

Chris OConnor

Climate Apocalypse

Tue May 22, 2012 5:46 pm

Robert Tulip

Brian Greene on the multiverse

Tue May 22, 2012 4:38 pm

Dexter

Emotobooks?

Tue May 22, 2012 2:35 pm

Toobi

succesful ways to promote

Tue May 22, 2012 12:33 am

Ban me now

Ch. 9 - The uniqueness of human being

Mon May 21, 2012 9:50 pm

Dexter

Totally Gratuitous Self-Promotion: Doulos

Mon May 21, 2012 9:35 pm

Doulos

Government Institutions

Mon May 21, 2012 8:20 pm

Dexter

Why, Hello there!

Mon May 21, 2012 7:02 pm

Kevin

Short stories by Guy de Maupassant

Mon May 21, 2012 3:28 pm

Toobi


Celebrating 10 Years Online!

BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Support BookTalk.org 
BookTalk.org is being upgraded to a totally new design. This upgrade is expensive. Any support would be VERY helpful! See who supports us.
Make a donation

PEOPLE PAYING FOR OUR UPGRADE:

• afv - $10 May
• LevV - $50 March
• Dexter - $10 March
• supernova38 - $25 March
• Oblivion - $20 March
• jheimlich - $20 February
• Robert Tulip - $50 February
• giselle - $50 January


Featured Books

Recent Blogging 

WORMING TABLETS AND WESTFIELD

24th March

Children here need worming regularly, and  I think I need to buy more worming tablets, so while my friends sit on the beach, I have to catch bush taxis up to the… more

Posted: 16 days ago
by heledd

TUESDAY 20TH MARCH

The children have a long way to walk to the nearest primary school. At the moment they are in temporary accommodation, with volunteer teachers. There is community land available, a… more

Posted: 18 days ago
by heledd

The 12th Disciple $3.99 (USD) on Kindle...

The price of The 12th Disciple has been updated to $3.99 for Kindle readers. The book is still available for free to borrow for Amazon Prime members.  To be competitive, and s… more

Posted: 21 days ago
by 12th disciple

The 12th Disciple reviews...

The 12th Disciple has been reviewed by two different people on Amazon. They purchased the Kindle edition; one in the US, one in the UK. One review was 5-stars (US) and the oth… more

Posted: 30 days ago
by 12th disciple

The Stages In and Out of Life

From the book; The Joys of Live Alchemy

Every human being experiences distinct stages in their lives. First, birth... Second, learning to walk and talk…Third, learning the rule… more

Posted: 38 days ago
by michaellevys

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 38 days ago
by michaellevys

Cutting Truths - Book Review

This review is from: Cutting Truths: Fifty Enlightening Slices of Life (Paperback) 178 pages ... 5.0 out of 5 stars     Sleeper Cells Awaken,

By Julie Clayton… more

Posted: 38 days ago
by michaellevys

Nonviolence Quotes

From Gandhi:

“Anger is the enemy of nonviolence and pride is the monster that swallows it up.”

“An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.”

“I have nothing ne… more

Posted: 43 days ago
by jamessanderson

Harry Potter Enthusiast

I'd like to say I've been reading Harry Potter since the day the world renown series appeared on the scene.  Unfortunately, the truth is I began reading Harry Potter… more

Posted: 45 days ago
by kinse1na

Good Friday, Better Saturday, Blessed Sunday

Easter teaches many of us the importance of redemption and resurrection. Regardless of what faith people follow, the story of Jesus Christ has been told in many languages in many c… more

Posted: 45 days ago
by 12th disciple

Let The Blogging Begin!

Our Book Talk will begin on Wednesday, May 2nd. I look forward to hearing about your learning and classroom experiences with Number Talks as it all unfolds...

Posted: 50 days ago
by msbeth

MONDAY 12TH MARCH. COMMONWEALTH DAY

Today is Commonwealth Day. All the children come in their various ethnic clothes and bring food traditional to their groups.

We have Fula, Mandinka, Manjargo, Wollof , Jola… more

Posted: 51 days ago
by heledd

CHRISTIAN NONVIOLENCE

NONOPPOSITIONAL NONVIOLENCE “The minute you conquer the fear of death, at that moment you are free. I submit to you that if a man hasn’t discovered something that he will die f… more

Posted: 52 days ago
by jamessanderson

FEBRUARY 26TH, SUNDAY

Yesterday, when I went to feed Jeni the donkey, I noticed swarms of bees entering Ebrima’s house through the cracks in the door. We both had a look, but he didn’t open his door… more

Posted: 52 days ago
by heledd

Exciting News...Now You Can Order Blessings of the Father - Book One on sale at only $4.98 on B&N.com!

Hello fellow followers of the written word:

I'm pleased to tell you that there is finally a downloadable epub version for Book One of my saga; Blessings of the Father … more

Posted: 78 days ago
by mitchreed

What Number Talks Is All About

Whether you want to implement number talks but are unsure of how to begin or have experience but want more guidance in crafting purposeful problems, this dynamic multimedia resourc… more

Posted: 78 days ago
by msbeth

Feeling Entitled Is Not Always A Bad Thing

Do you feel entitled? For years I have listened to and, in some instances, complained that some people in America feel entitled. For years I have watched as these people are portra… more

Posted: 79 days ago
by life is a business

Free Kindle promotion very successful for The 12th Disciple

On Fat Tuesday and Ash Wednesday of 2012, The 12th Disciple was free to Kindle users on both days. In all, about 550 worldwide Kindle users downloaded a copy of the book.

The 12… more

Posted: 80 days ago
by 12th disciple

Sacred Are the Brave

‘Sacred Are the Brave’ a collection of short stories about the nonviolent revolutions 1986-1989 is now available in Kindle. Each of the nine stories has characters who are just … more

Posted: 83 days ago
by jamessanderson

The Weekend Trippers

The Weekend Trippers’ is the true story of Rfn Ted Taylor and his part in the heroic last stand in Calais May 1940. The Weekend Trippers is based on Ted’s diaries written at the… more

Posted: 85 days ago
by carolemct






BookTalk.org Chat Room 
Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat [0]

Chat Room Always Open!

Tell your friends when to meet you
in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.

If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.






BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Moby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank