Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3712 Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 629 Thanked: 501 times in 403 posts
Gender: Country:
Right, aren't Plato and Socrates good candidates for heroes? The challenge they pose is in using reason properly, which is far different from just saying we believe in using reason. For Plato, using reason well could only be done after long study by those who were suited by birth for such study. So in the Republic, at least, the men and women who had mastered the use of reason and philosophy were an elite, almost a priesthood. I imagine we are not very comfortable with this idea today, though.
Coming after the chapter on the bible and Christianity, this one is quite a contrast. Belief and submission to God was all that was needed for salvation. No great mental powers were required. For Plato, God is not even the focus, but our reason is in some sense an expression of an abstract divinity. I see similarity between Plato and Confucius, in that ultimate reality is not as important as how we live together in society. The authority of sages was important in Confucianism, though, while we can't imagine Socrates saying something is so just because an authority has said it. It would be up to everyone to test the truth of any statement for herself.
There is, though, similarity in the views of human nature between Plato and the biblical view. Plato divided us into soul and body and gave our soul three parts. This thinking worked its way into Christianity as well and even into Freudianism.
Platonism, it would seem is partly philosophy and partly religion. Plato's idea of the soul, involving a kind of reincarnation, is a scientifically untestable idea. Note, though, that in Plato's view he arrived at it through reason, which illustrates that science and reason are not identical. One can reason from assumptions that can't be proved. We probably all do this.
In general, though, Plato's notion of HN is down to earth, accessible, and even if not correct in every detail, very usable even in our time.
The book reinforces for me that we don't have a settled human nature. HN is really a belief that we acquire just like any belief. It is a part of religion or philosophy rather than being a base on which they are subsequently built, as far as I can see.
Will
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 732
Thanks: 3 Thanked: 10 times in 9 posts
Gender:
DWill wrote:
The authority of sages was important in Confucianism, though, while we can't imagine Socrates saying something is so just because an authority has said it. It would be up to everyone to test the truth of any statement for herself.
In other words, unless you're 'somebody' you can't pass your opinion on.
Are they heroes? Or were you just being facetious - ha! ha!
I think somebody like Thoreau would be a hero - that is, if people had been wise enough to listen to him. If society had listened to him, we wouldn't be battling this capitalistic society today. People would have what they needed, use only what they needed and be happy with what that.
DWill wrote:
The book reinforces for me that we don't have a settled human nature. HN is really a belief that we acquire just like any belief. It is a part of religion or philosophy rather than being a base on which they are subsequently built, as far as I can see.
Like Buddhism . . . things can be so simple with less headaches.
Sorry, I'm not much of an intellectual, but it's like the guy said about art - I know nothing about it, but I know what I like when I see it - or something like that.
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3712 Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 629 Thanked: 501 times in 403 posts
Gender: Country:
Hi wildcitywoman,
Yes, I was serious about Socrates and Plato as heroes (though not to be worshiped). Showing that by our reason we can solve the problems of living and not have to rely on supernatural concepts is a great acheivement.
So you like Thoreau too? Maybe we should read Walden in this club. I'd put him up for hero status, too, not that he was beyond criticism, but he showed us a great deal about how we might live--if only, as you say, we were willing to listen!
Will
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3712 Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 629 Thanked: 501 times in 403 posts
Gender: Country:
Well, Thoreau wrote enough, I think, if you include his essays and travel books. My favorite of the travel books is The Maine Woods. And then there are the Journals, which are massive and which I've only read some parts of. Emerson I like, too, and admire very much for the courage he showed throughout his life. He is a lot more obscure than Thoreau for me, though. Ever had the opportunity to visit Concord? My brother used to live near there, so I was able to see the important places in Concord when visiting him. One of my favorite lines from Thoreau, by the way, is "I have traveled much in Concord." He could learn more from a few square miles of land than most of us can learn by traveling the world.
Will
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
The 12th Disciple is now being
stocked at Poor Richard's
Bookstore in Colorado Springs.
We're happy to have the
title at such a historic
location in Colorado Springs.
If… more
For most of us, a very big
part of our lives will be a
dark place, we wont realize
it. We live, we eat, we have
some fun, we go to school, we
sleep. But it will come the
time, when… more
The 12th Disciple's
endorsement for a Presidential
Candidate...we'll pass.
If many haven't learned
over the past several decades,
centuries, and millennia, the
gover… more
So I've been looking for
new books to read, but I
haven't found any that
have caught my attention
lately. I want to try and
venture out into a different
genre, but I'… more
For those who constantly gripe
about jobs being sent
overseas, focus your anger on
this. Read about how one of
the most profitable companies
prided by American citizens
offshores t… more
Its January 1945 and British,
Commonwealth, US and POWs from
various other nationalities
are finally awaiting
liberation from the various
camps in Eastern Europe, where
some of the… more
A good friend of mine recently
received a pre-paid credit
card. She went to pay for a
$20.00 gas purchase only to
later find out that over a
$70.00 hold was placed on her
card for… more
While watching the bube tube
(TV) this morning I stumbled
on a motivational speaker
saying “today marks a new
year, you now have a blank
canvas to work from.”
The 12th Disciple wishes you
and yours a Happy New Year.
Many of us hope and pray that
2012 will bring better
leadership in the government
of the United States, better
leadership i… more
The Cat & The
Nightingale Saga, the docu
drama version of The Weekend
Trippers, also tells Rifleman
Ted TaylorÂ’s story but in a
slightly different way. It too
tells of the… more
In 2011 I published my book;
in the book I outlined 9 Key
Principles to Prosperity
(happiness). Like
many of you, I walked through
2011 with the Woe is me
attitude. When… more
More and more these days I see
people using social media to
quote what someone else has
said. I see people posting
their favorite rappers lyrics,
lines from movies and what
seems t… more
IÂ’m down the school for the
first time today. My friend
visited two weeks ago and said
it was chaos. They must have
heard I was back
because everything is tidy and
orderly today… more
I'm quite positive that
everyone who enters this site
has the same thing in mind:
fear of seeing a world without
books, without literature. We
see it everyday, more people
qui… more
For once in my life I step off
the plane at Banjul, and
donÂ’t get a rush of elation.
I went home to see my
daughterÂ’s twins safely
delivered. They are all well
now, but IÂ’m goin… more
Last weekend I witnessed a
couple of family members
literally fall apart at the
seams because of a problem
with a couple of their
employees. They recently
opened a group home, and
… more
Tell your friends when to meet you in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.
Booktalk.org on Facebook
If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.
BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.
Tweet This Topic
