Ch. 2: Power

Chris OConnor · Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: Ch. 2: Power

Please use this thread for discussing Ch. 2: Power. Mad

Ophelia · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:15 am Post subject:

I find chapter 2, about power, to be fascinating.

De Waal begins by relating an example of power struggle between male chimpanzees he observed at the Arnhem Zoo in Holland and concludes that "Power is the prime mover of the male chimpanzee. It's a constant
tant obsession, offering great benefits if obatained and intense bitterness if lost."

Later he writes: that "it's not unusual for high-ranking primates to develop the ulcers and heart attacks also common in corporate CEOs."

p 49: "For males, power is the absolute aphrodisiac, and an addictive one at that."

Yesterday, President Camacho and I discussed chapter 7 of Cannibals and Kings, by Marvin Harris.
The author discusses studies by anthropologists which describe some traditional societies in Melanesia and New Guinea.
In such groups , the "big man" or mumi is one who redistributes food among his followers, sometimes keeping nothing for himself.
I wondered how this could happen, and what the benefits of "mumihood" could be that bring about such seflessness. I thought perhaps status and power in themselves could be enough of a driving force, even in the absense of material gain.
Anyway, this was given as an example of what could have happened between what Harris describes as egalitarian primitive groups in prehistorical times and the emergence of nation states.

Now, after the reference to the apparent exception, back to the norm, and what De Waal calls the "obvious will to power" of the human race, and "the enormous energy put into its expression".

The author raises a question I find extremely interesting:
p 51: (An Archaic Tendency).
"I'm puzzled by the taboo with which our society surrounds this issue.
"Most psychology textbooks do not even mention power and dominance, except in relation to abusive relationships. Everyone seems to be in denial."
(emphasis mine.)

De Waal then mentions that in a study about power motive, businessmen state that lust for power does exist, but only in other businessmen, and the same with politicians, who describe themselves as "public servants".

I thought I would take De Waal up on this, and I looked at what books had been published on power, in English and in French.
What I found is always about extremes of power, such as : power in autocratic states such as Myanmar and North Korea, abusive use of power in some familes, or extreme cases like perverse narcissists. It seems that concerning democracies, nobody feels like writing about the everyday use of power that will not make newspaper headlines or take the power seeker to jail.
I did find quite a few books about psychological manipulation.
Does this mean that there is no interest in describing the everyday use or struggle for power in democracies? Does it mean that things are so smooth that power is no longer sought and used? Things have certainly got more subtle than they used to be-- or for example intimidation is not carried out by thumping one's chest, as apes do.

De Waal writes: " it's refreshing to work with chimpanzees: they are the honest politicians we all look for."

Robert Tulip · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject:

Ophelia, I've just finished Our Inner Ape and am so pleased that Booktalk has recommended this. De Waal is full of basic insight. I think this book holds a very useful mirror up to human psychology, without all the stupid behaviourist experiments and preconceptions, but just looking at how apes live to see where we came from.

In my day job I work for the Australian Agency for International Development, and have spent more than a decade working on Papua New Guinea. I have never heard of this 'selfless' behaviour of the big man. Rather, their efforts are to obtain as much as possible for themself, using ostentatious distribution as a way of buying support. Their small clan social structure is closer to our ape origins than is our industrial civilization, and reading of the cooperation between apes reminded me that big men in PNG need to be excellent negotiators and speakers to stay on top of their clan. Perhaps they sometimes make a show of taking nothing, but I would expect it is with the expectation of getting more later. PNG is a fascinating country, with intact language, land and cultural traditions. In saying they are in some ways closer to apes I am paying them a compliment, as I think a big point de Waal makes is how much our modern world has lost through loneliness and alienation and forgetfulness of our primate origins.

The power chapter has interesting comments on Machiavelli on page 58

Robert Tulip · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject:

DWill · Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:53 am Post subject:

Robert Tulip · Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject:

DWill · Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject:

Don't you find it awful to contemplate the fate that De Waal says may be in store for the apes by 2040--no remaining natural habitat? I can't think of a greater indictment of our own primate species.

Yes, the example of the bonobos is encouraging if it leads us away from thinking that our evolutionary lineage commits us to the social ways typical of the chimps and us. We don't lack the genes necessary to become more humane.

I know Dyson is a visionary, but I'm not confident about so-called unlimited sources of energy. Any source will have big drawbacks if we look at it as potentially unlimited, although we might not be able to see the drawbacks now. To me, the realization of limits in the supply and adjustment of our behavior accordingly is the only real answer.
DWill

Robert Tulip · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:59 am Post subject:

Ophelia · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:21 am Post subject:

Robert, the idea of using algae is intriguing, and I had a look at samples of what has been written on the web in French and in English. The idea is attracting attention.
I have seen one reader voicing a suspicion I had: could we control the development and possible negative sides of an alga we introduced in the ocean?

Anyway, here is one source about the research being done in Japan:

http://www.nni.nikkei.co.jp/FR/TNKS/Nni20080520D20HH027.htm

I've read that the technology is being used in Italy and the Netherlands, and here is an articles from the (London) Times:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/camilla_cavendish/ article4069159.ece


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